Borg Expansion Pack Mod implementation in 0ad alpha 24 release.

[snelius]

Hi everybody,

I would like to initiate some discussion about the idea of implementing borg-'s expansion pack mod in a24 release.
I know it's almost done. But to be perfect it needs some patches to be applied. Thus any javascript geeks are welcome to join this project and apply bug fixes.
I'm sure @borg- would manage and coordinate the whole process (testing, patches applying, etc.) but he needs some volunteers to help to make this mod tuned on high level.

So the idea of that topic is to:
1) let people know that there is need of some js work to do - maybe some of you guys could help with that
2) find what functionalities of this expansion pack could/should be tested (some testing team would also be necessary)
3) discuss if it is worth to wait a bit with 0ad a24 release date so it could have implemented Borg's expansion pack as a native functionality (not a mod)

As this expansion pack made a huge positive impression on me, personally I would recommend to include it into alpha 24 release.
In my opinion better wait a bit and shift the release date in favour of better game balance and  less versatile but more diverse building system with some new type of units.

All opinions and comments are welcome here so feel free to let us know what do you think about it guys.
Thanks!
snelius
 

Edited November 6, 2019 by snelius

[borg-]

1 hour ago, snelius said:

Hi everybody,

I would like to initiate some discussion about the idea of implementing borg-'s expansion pack mod in a24 release.
I know it's almost done. But to be perfect it needs some patches to be applied. Thus any javascript geek are welcome to join this project and apply bug fixes.
I'm sure @borg- would manage and coordinate the whole process (testing, patches applying, etc.) but he needs some volunteers to help to make this mod tuned on high level.

So the idea of that topic is to:
1) let people know that there is need of some js work to do - maybe some of you guys could help with that
2) find what functionalities of this expansion pack could/should be tested (some testing team would also be necessary)
3) discuss if it is worth to wait a bit with 0ad a24 release date so it could have implemented Borg's expansion pack as a native functionality (not a mod)

As this expansion pack made a huge positive impression on me, personally I would recommend to include it into alpha 24 release.
In my opinion better wait a bit and shift the release date in favour of better game balance and  less versatile but more diverse building system with some new type of units.

All opinions and comments are welcome here so feel free to let us know what do you think about it guys.
Thanks!
snelius
 

If there really are some volunteers to help me with this, surely I would work on it with the greatest pleasure. I just need to know if the people willing to work at it.

@ValihrAnt and @Feldfeld always helped me and I'm sure they continued to help.
I probably won't use all the patches that are in the mod, just the one that has been tested and approved and with less potential for risk.

@badosu can help on some tests too?

Certainly  @Angen can easily patch patches for the a24 version.

After the patches are verified and applied, then I start converting the templates to a24, as I convert I can send it to be verified by devs.

Edited November 6, 2019 by borg-

[Lion.Kanzen]

I can test the SP gameplay.

[borg-]

@Stan` can you help me convert some js to a24?

[Stan`]

Sure. What do you need ?

[badosu]

Happy to see movement in this direction, I played and spec'ed a few times and must say that the game flow seems much more nuanced and balanced.

I am happy to help, whether adjusting parts of the code to patches or playtesting.

[Silier]

I cannot commit them if it is that what you meant  And I would not have probably time for creating them as well  , but I ll read them for sure  

[Freagarach]

I can also lend a hand in creating/reviewing the diffs (in the coming weeks at least). Just let me know if I can help

[Boudica]

I am for the the option to already include borg's changes in A24. Let's be realistic about when that release is going to take place – it won't be anytime soon. 

I also offer help with making / reviewing patches and testing.

On a different note, we could probably get more people interested in the mod by making a tournament in it. When there was a Hyrule Conquest tournament, it was the first time I found out about that mod and there were suddenly many people giving it a try. I don't feel like organizing this, but I don't strongly refuse to if none of the experienced organizers is interested. Maybe @HMS-Surprise, @Unknown_Player or @Stockfish?

Right, there is currently one tournament going on, but for now we could at least find some players that could possibly be interested. Let's make it the #4 goal of this thread to find out if there is interest. I would myself sign up for the Borg Expansion Pack tournament to help it gain more popularity.

[ValihrAnt]

It's great to see that @borg- has got the motivation to go through with implementing the mod and that a lot of people are willing to help.

Quote

On a different note, we could probably get more people interested in the mod by making a tournament in it. When there was a Hyrule Conquest tournament, it was the first time I found out about that mod and there were suddenly many people giving it a try. I don't feel like organizing this, but I don't strongly refuse to if none of the experienced organizers is interested. Maybe @HMS-Surprise, @Unknown_Player or @Stockfish?

Right, there is currently one tournament going on, but for now we could at least find some players that could possibly be interested. Let's make it the #4 goal of this thread to find out if there is interest. I would myself sign up for the Borg Expansion Pack tournament to help it gain more popularity.

Yes, a 1v1 tournament would be great to get people to play the mod. I don't think it going on at the same time as the SPG 1v1 league is a problem, since it is a quick weekend event.

[borg-]

My plan not to implement every mod, just the most important things.

[ValihrAnt]

Can you outline what parts you're not planning to implement so everyone is on the same page?

[borg-]

12 minutes ago, ValihrAnt said:

Can you outline what parts you're not planning to implement so everyone is on the same page?

My plan for implementation:

1- Counter system / general balance (units/techs/heros/bonuses);

2- JS changes: hero after death cant be trained again / rank celebration disabled (unit invulnerable);

3- CC train only women / unique barrack as in vanilla, but with reduced cost;

4- Differentiate gameplay from civilizations / new units/buildings/techs (only if we have time).

[Stan`]

@borg- I'm pretty sure you have, but have you looked at @wowgetoffyourcellphone's Delenda Est for techs Also, @Nescio's mod (would still be nice to have it on mod.io one day for more players to be able to play it) @Karamel 's old mod might have some nice ideas Sybillae Vox

I know it's hard to gather everything but you seem to now have a nice team. and with @Angen and @Freagarach for gameplay you are pretty much covered.

 

[borg-]

Just now, Stan` said:

@borg- I'm pretty sure you have, but have you looked at @wowgetoffyourcellphone's Delenda Est for techs Also, @Nescio's mod (would still be nice to have it on mod.io one day for more players to be able to play it) @Karamel 's old mod might have some nice ideas Sybillae Vox

I know it's hard to gather everything but you seem to now have a nice team. and with @Angen and @Freagarach for gameplay you are pretty much covered.

 

I will definitely look at the other mods. I had great inspirations at Dalenda Est about technology. I will try to gather as much information as possible.

[Genava55]

2 hours ago, borg- said:

4- Differentiate gameplay from civilizations / new units/buildings/techs (only if we have time).

[borg-]

I need some help about cavaly.

Specifically what were the battle objectives between cav lancer and cav sword, in the battle?

Was the cav sword lighter n faster?

@Lion.Kanzen can help me?

Edited November 7, 2019 by borg-

[Lion.Kanzen]

Lancer is more focus in defeat cavalry spear because is more long kind of spear and more heavy armor.

You can take light infantry and cavalry easy, even you can take swordman

Inly waeker vs pikemen and spearman. Can be defeated by slinger but they can kill slinger easily. 

[borg-]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Lancer is more focus in defeat cavalry spear because is more long kind of spear and more heavy armor.

You can take light infantry and cavalry easy, even you can take swordman

Inly waeker vs pikemen and spearman. Can be defeated by slinger but they can kill slinger easily. 

Let me see if I got it @Lion.Kanzen

Is spear cavalry a heavier cavalry focused on fight other cavalry and light infantry?

What would be the focus of sword cavalry?

My idea for balancing is to make spear cavalry a heavier and slower cavalry as well. But in rank 1 they are almost without armor, which does not support the high armor value

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by borg-

[Sundiata]

I think in the real world the primary weapon of melee cavalry has always been spears/lances. Swords were a secondary weapon: when the spear broke, or was dropped/lost, close quarter mosh pit style combat, or when the unit was dismounted making the long spear unwieldy for 1v1 combat. I think dedicated "sword cav" is mostly a game convention. In antiquity cavalry was primarily used against other cavalry, scouting, and chasing down retreating/fleeing units. They're particularly useful for their speed and manoeuvrability, exploiting weak point in the enemy lines. They perform very well against lightly armed units. They perform very poorly against disciplined heavy infantry. If the cav is armored, they can perform well against ranged units. If not, they're very vulnerable to missiles.   

[Alexandermb]

If possible, take spearman cavalry and pikeman attack speed to a realistic level, at this moment the spearman cavalry attacking animation is too slow because of the attacking speed.

[badosu]

3 hours ago, borg- said:

I need some help about cavaly.

Specifically what were the battle objectives between cav lancer and cav sword, in the battle?

Was the cav sword lighter n faster?

@Lion.Kanzen can help me?

 

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

I think in the real world the primary weapon of melee cavalry has always been spears/lances. Swords were a secondary weapon: when the spear broke, or was dropped/lost, close quarter mosh pit style combat, or when the unit was dismounted making the long spear unwieldy for 1v1 combat. I think dedicated "sword cav" is mostly a game convention. In antiquity cavalry was primarily used against other cavalry, scouting, and chasing down retreating/fleeing units. They're particularly useful for their speed and manoeuvrability, exploiting weak point in the enemy lines. They perform very well against lightly armed units. They perform very poorly against disciplined heavy infantry. If the cav is armored, they can perform well against ranged units. If not, they're very vulnerable to missiles.   

 

That is on point, sword would be used as a secondary weapon if the lance broke or the rider lost his mount.

Also, apart from the other points already mentioned (chasing retreating units, scouting, attacking light infantry) on many battles of the antiquity they were used to great effect with the anvil and hammer strategy, heavy infantry attacking the front lines while the cavalry would circle the flanks and attack from behind. If I am not mistaken I've read that 0ad has logic with regard to lower armor when attacked by the flank, I am not too sure if this is actually implemented though.

If we were striving for historical accuracy though we would have a very hard job to make it real, as it would require heavily nerfing skirmish units, they were used just behind the frontline to taunt the enemy, get a few kills before armies clashed, or the flanks. Slingers had an even less preeminent role.

So I would avoid looking at drastic changes at a first iteration to improve balance, just making it better than the current state would be a huge accomplishment.

If we were allowed to dream though:

- Archers and skirmishers could have a limit to how many throws they can perform and then get a cooldown, this would drastically reduce their abuse.
- Flanking generates an aoe morale effect in which units would have a more drastic armor nerf, reduced attack speed or similar
- Your favorite civ trivia: roman soldiers throw a pillum (a javelin shaped weapon) and draw their gladius (sword) or use it against cav, macedonians can have sarissa wielders (greatly increased armor in formation, abismal walk speed), etc...
- etc...

[Sundiata]

And raiding... Cav was used for raiding... Quick in and out... Burning down the countryside... (Burning enemy fields should be a thing). 

[Loki1950]

Don't forget mounted archers they are relevant in this time period though most where nomadic pastorals of the steppes Scythian and Xiongnu.

Enjoy the Choice    

  

[Lion.Kanzen]

Quote

Parthian heavy cavalry, which was stationed at the bottom of the hill, was enveloped and surrounded by the legionaries. Instead of immediately attacking with the legionaries, Ventidius made use of his slingers to rain down projectiles on the Parthian heavy cavalry, which included Pacorus himself. After the barrage was lifted the legionaries moved in and were quickly able to identify Pacorus because of his standard and expensive armour. Pacorus was eventually slain along with his bodyguards, and the remaining cavalry broke and attempted to flee from their entrapment, which not all managed to do. Overall the Roman army had achieved a complete victory.^[4]

Lancer can defeat infantry and light cavalry except anti cavalry like pikemen.

Quote

Cataphracts served as either the elite cavalry or assault force for most empires and nations that fielded them, primarily used for impetuous charges to break through infantry formations. Chronicled by many historians from the earliest days of antiquity up until the High Middle Ages, they are believed to have influenced the later European knights, through contact with the Byzantine Empire

But im talking about heavy champion lancer.

Quote

The Companions probably constituted the first real shock cavalry in history, able to conduct charges against massed infantry, even if such use is scarcely described in the ancient sources. Contemporary cavalry, even when heavily armored, would most usually be equipped with javelins and would avoid melee^{[citation needed]}.

In battle, it would form part of a hammer and anvil tactic: the Companion cavalry would be used as a hammer, in conjunction with the Macedonian phalanx-based infantry, which acted as their anvil. The phalanx would pin the enemy in place, while the Companion cavalry would attack the enemy on the flank or from behind^{[citation needed]}.

In battle, Alexander the Great personally led the charge at the head of the royal squadron of the Companion cavalry, usually in a wedge formation. In a pitched battle, the Companions usually fought on the right wing of the Macedonian army, next to the shield-bearing guards, the Hypaspists, who would guard the right flank of the phalanx. Other cavalry troops would protect the flanks of the Macedonian line during battle. Under Alexander's command, the Companions' role was decisive in most of his battles in Asia

The Hetaroi or Companion cavalry and all Hellenistic lancers share this shock function or role.

 

In AoE series AoK and AoM.

Is anti infantry unit.

Quote

https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Cataphract_(Chinese)

 It is unique among other cavalry units as it is effective against infantry units.

Strengths and Weaknesses 

• Strong against
• Infantry
• Archers
• Siege Weapons

Weak against

• Anti-Cavalry Infantry (Less of a threat than normally)
• Anti-Cavalry Cavalry

Lancer in mostly of cases is anti infantry because.

Their weapons. Lance (Kontos, Xysthon) alternate weapons (sword, mace or bow)

Their armor. Full, partial.

Shock cavalry, the hammer and anvil tactic.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen