Is everybody ok with how rams work?

[alre]

I'm not able to install the SVN version of the game, I can only read the gameplay patches in this thread. Hack damage of spearmen was indeed raised (and I was aware of it) but still remains this distinction between melee troups that are effective against rams and melee troups that aren't. This is not justified.

Tagging the developers (from the other thread): @Acumen, @Alex, @Alexandermb, @alpha123, @arissa_nightblade, @bb_, @borg-, @Deiz, @elexis, @fatherbushido, @Feldfeld, @Freagarach, @Grugnas, @Hannibal_Barca, @historic_bruno, @LordGood, @Matei, @mimo, @Mythos_Ruler, @Nescio, @niektb, @Pureon, @quantumstate, @sanderd17, @scythetwirler, @Stan`, @temple, @ValihrAnt, @Wijitmaker, @wraitii

[nifa]

I think this manual should be more prominent to get more people playing the svn version, pin it or put the link to https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/BuildInstructionsGettingTheCode

Edited January 9, 2021 by nifa

[alre]

tried that, didn't work. I'll see again some other day, a friend of mine made it, but he uses mac.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

34 minutes ago, alre said:

I'm not able to install the SVN version of the game, I can only read the gameplay patches in this thread. Hack damage of spearmen was indeed raised (and I was aware of it) but still remains this distinction between melee troups that are effective against rams and melee troups that aren't. This is not justified.

Well, as I and others more or less unanimously agreed in a topic I started, trying to differentiate between sword and spear units to begin with is a kind of problematic approach.

[alre]

Agree. Although a bonus agains cavalry makes sense I believe. Could you link me the thread please?

Edited January 9, 2021 by alre

[alre]

found it.

[Nescio]

No, I don't think many people are happy with how exactly rams are in 0 A.D. Stating the problem is easy, and there is no shortage of ideas to address it either. However, the difficulty is getting consensus one particular proposal is better than the alternatives.

For what's worth, my prefered solution would be to introduce a four damage type (thrust), such that:

• macemen inflict only crush damage
• swordsmen inflict only hack damage
• spearmen inflict only thrust damage
• archers inflict only pierce damage

In combination with negative resistance levels (D2975) that would also allow for removing the hard-coded bonus attacks of spearmen vs cavalry.

On 30/12/2020 at 6:26 PM, alre said:

convert a ram

On 03/01/2021 at 2:02 AM, badosu said:

Ironically it's one of the few siege units s that makes sense to be capturable.

Actually rams were capturable in the past, but that made them rather useless, and was thus undone (18037) in A21. There is also a proposal to make other siege engines uncapturable too: (D2493).

[alre]

I think any of the proposed solutions here is better than the game as it is now! My proposal is just the simplest alternative I could imagine, to be fair, I like so much better the system proposed by @ChronA in the other thread.

Anyway, before adding a lot of cool functionalities, we should fix what's broken. I don't care how, if the fix turns up to be another problem, we'll fix that too.

[Nescio]

3 hours ago, alre said:

tried that, didn't work. I'll see again some other day, a friend of mine made it, but he uses mac.

Where exactly didn't it work for you?

1 hour ago, alre said:

we should fix what's broken

No objections here.

1 hour ago, alre said:

I don't care how, if the fix turns up to be another problem, we'll fix that too.

That's not always the most efficient approach. Try to think critically and figure out what's really going on. For instance, one could have a look at damage-per-second values:

• basic infantry spearman: (3 h, 2.5 p, 0 c) / 1 s = 3 h/s + 2.5 p/s
• basic infantry swordsman: (5.5 h, 0 p, 0 c) / 0.75 s = 7.333 h/s
• ram: (0 h, 0 p, 150 c) / 1.5 s = 100 c/s
• stone-thrower: (0 h, 10 p, 100 c) / 7 s = 1.429 p/s + 14.286 c/s

Basically, swordsmen are nearly 2.5× as effective vs rams and structures as spearmen are, and rams destroy rams and structures 7× as fast as stone-throwers do. It's hardly surprising civs that have both have a clear advantage over those that don't.

One thing that's changed is that rams can no longer attack humans, another is that all civs can train at least one swordsman (or axeman) in A24 (which wasn't yet the case in A23). Furthermore, there's a patch to enable rams for all civs (D2815) and a proposal to make artillery more effective (D2494). Whether that will be enough is something ample play-testing can show.

[nifa]

3 hours ago, Nescio said:

In combination with negative resistance levels (D2975) that would also allow for removing the hard-coded bonus attacks of spearmen vs cavalry.

Is this bonus for spearman vs cavalry the only bonus against one particular unit in this game?

[Nescio]

32 minutes ago, nifa said:

Is this bonus for spearman vs cavalry the only bonus against one particular unit in this game?

You can do a

grep -r Bonuses

in simulation/templates/

Pikemen have an attack bonus vs cavalry too. Furthermore, there is Alexander the Great, which has a 1.2× counter vs heroes (which doesn't really make sense, in my opinion). Anyway, that's a different discussion.

[Nescio]

As of today, rams are available to all factions. Because a frequent (and just) complaint is that civilizations are too similar in 0 A.D., I wrote another patch: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3319

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

52 minutes ago, Nescio said:

As of today, rams are available to all factions. Because a frequent (and just) complaint is that civilizations are too similar in 0 A.D., I wrote another patch: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3319

DE will be creating a progression for rams. First, it's a log carried by soldiers, then with an upgrade it becomes a covered ram. Perhaps EA can do something similar. 

[Stan`]

42 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

DE will be creating a progression for rams. First, it's a log carried by soldiers, then with an upgrade it becomes a covered ram. Perhaps EA can do something similar. 

The plan was to add the log guys as well. But I needed @Alexandermb to reduce the oversized log first, as he has all the files.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

26 minutes ago, Stan` said:

The plan was to add the log guys as well. But I needed @Alexandermb to reduce the oversized log first, as he has all the files.

So, I think ideally it should be done with the ranking feature, instead of adjusting the actor, footprint, stats, etc. with the "covered ram" tech. Just use the tech to rank up the log to the next rank which is a covered ram. Has that one patch been committed where we don't have to make the required xp 99999 for the log ram? 

[Stan`]

2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Has that one patch been committed where we don't have to make the required xp 99999 for the log ram? 

No idea @wraitii / @Freagarach

[Freagarach]

I think this predates me, but I assume this is when one wants to be able to promote but not automatically (from fighting)?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Freagarach said:

I think this predates me, but I assume this is when one wants to be able to promote but not automatically (from fighting)?

Right.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

2 hours ago, alre said:

Let's give spearmen more attack power against rams!

You do not go far enough! The tyranny of the sword must be overthrown by the objectively more popular and effective weapon.  We shall not rest until the reverse is done!  Spears remove half of a ram's health in a single strike while a sword does a paltry one damage.  

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Make Spearmen and Swordsmen have the same attack (hack only!), then differentiate them with a 2x bonus vs. cavalry for Spearmen and 2x bonus vs. infantry for Swordsmen.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 10/01/2021 at 5:54 PM, Stan` said:

But I needed @Alexandermb to reduce the oversized log first, as he has all the files.

Indeed, I always felt the log was way too big and the way the men carried it looked awkward/unrealistic. But the overall theory is sound, I believe.

 

EDIT: There are also alternative designs we can look into. Much like how different civs have different "tiers" of catapults, different civs can have different tiers of battering rams. Some civs start out with Hand Rams ("dudes carrying a log"), which are tier 1, and then they can upgrade to tier 2, which looks like this: 

Spoiler

Tier 2 rams

 

Some civs (Romans, Greeks, Carthage) start at tier 2 (examples above^), and then upgrade to tier 3 (examples below):

Spoiler

Fanciful:

 

Their exact look can be determined later. (I've always felt that the rams need their looks updated, siege towers too, but they are a different thread).

Edited January 12, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[alre]

Trying to pick up the point of the discussion as we left it, I'd say there is enough consent on the fact that spearmen and other melee units should have a more similar profile of damage (no piercing), spearmen should retain some bonus against cavalry (the way it is is fine to me, although @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded argued that there should be less difference, I guess there is room for balance tweaking) and that swordmen should have some kind of edge over spearmen where cavalry is not involved. This is only fair, considering the bonus of spears against cavalry, even if it's been argued that this difference is not as easy to catch in history, as soldiers using swords generally would have throwing weapons too, and contestual advantage depended on many subtle factors we don't even know entirely. However, unless (until?) trowing side weapons are implemented, I think we can let swordmen have a little bonus over spearmen, or just higher stats overall. Mace and axe folks can have the same treatment.

I think this is the best solution for making the game more intuitive to play for everybody, it's the best compromise, until new features are introduced in the game.

Edited January 17, 2021 by alre
that part of the post was posted days before some other messages up in the thread, I'm restoring some order

[Player of 0AD]

Fun fact: Female Citizens damage rams 4 times faster than non-upgraded pikemen.

I guess that this is not intended. (In terms how bad pikemen are)

Edited January 18, 2021 by Player of 0AD

[alre]

For some reason I can't log in on svn (it says I'm being rate-limited), but I'm following a discussion there and I need a clarification: there is a difference in the game between spearmen and pikemen? I thought they were synonyms. If it's not the case, which civ has wich?

[Stan`]

Yes they have different stats . Iirc ptol and sele have pikemen gauls for instance only have spearmen