Should workshops be enabled?

[Nescio]

Siege workshops have been created for all factions, but they have not been enabled. Should they be? City walls are available to all factions in town phase, so perhaps battering rams should be too?

Feel free to participate in the discussion here.

Related: D1761 and siege mod.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3. Should all factions have a battering ram?
 

Yes, even if just 2 or 4 dudes carrying a log. In fact, you could have the "dudes+log" be the default battering ram in Town Phase, and then there be a "Covered Battering Ram" upgrade come in City Phase.

[Speed_Freak]

is the multiplayer working

 

[LordGood]

people vote siege workshop out of the town phase but vote battering ram into the town phase Lord have mercy what are y'all doin

[Alexandermb]

3 hours ago, LordGood said:

people vote siege workshop out of the town phase but vote battering ram into the town phase Lord have mercy what are y'all doin

Spoiler

 

[WhiteTreePaladin]

4 hours ago, LordGood said:

people vote siege workshop out of the town phase but vote battering ram into the town phase Lord have mercy what are y'all doin

I almost did that also, but decided that it would confuse people, so I didn't. The reason I considered doing that was because I wouldn't mind a siege workshop in town phase as long as most powerful siege weapons were not available until city phase. I wouldn't want powerful siege weapons like our current battering rams available in town phase, but would be OK with the simple carried log battering ram in town phase. There was no way to properly express this with the current poll options.

[Edit]

This was basically covered in the @wowgetoffyourcellphone post.

Quote

Yes, even if just 2 or 4 dudes carrying a log. In fact, you could have the "dudes+log" be the default battering ram in Town Phase, and then there be a "Covered Battering Ram" upgrade come in City Phase.

Edited April 8, 2019 by WhiteTreePaladin

[Nescio]

17 hours ago, WhiteTreePaladin said:

I wouldn't mind a siege workshop in town phase as long as most powerful siege weapons were not available until city phase.

Even if the workshop would become available in an earlier phase, it doesn't mean the phase of the current siege engines should be changed as well; I think city phase is appropiate for catapults etc.

Personally I think the last question is the most interesting.

Anyway, there seems to be clear support for (1). I'm not sure what the proper procedure to proceed is, though.

[Stan`]

9 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Even if the workshop would become available in an earlier phase, it doesn't mean the phase of the current siege engines should be changed as well; I think city phase is appropiate for catapults etc.

Personally I think the last question is the most interesting.

Anyway, there seems to be clear support for (1). I'm not sure what the proper procedure to proceed is, though.

I guess you could discuss it with @borg- and @Itms

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I'd say that the issue with walls is that at the moment they are highly resistant for town age standards.  Whether it is through a technology or an automatic upgrade when the player reaches city phase, walls should have less hp in the town phase.

[borg-]

4 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

I'd say that the issue with walls is that at the moment they are highly resistant for town age standards.  Whether it is through a technology or an automatic upgrade when the player reaches city phase, walls should have less hp in the town phase.

One of my plans for walls is a little more vuneraveis but faster to build and less cost.

 

[WhiteTreePaladin]

8 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

I'd say that the issue with walls is that at the moment they are highly resistant for town age standards.  Whether it is through a technology or an automatic upgrade when the player reaches city phase, walls should have less hp in the town phase.

Yeah, city phase could include a fortified wall technology to preserve balance.

[lecedar]

i think its good like that to have some faction with siege workshops and some others without
maurya having catapult would be cool but then an other siege engine should maybe removed

i think the phases when the units and walls are available are good too 
what borg and thorfin say is allright too the walls having a little less cost and health points could lead to something more interesting especialy if the garnison bonus etc remains the same

Edited April 9, 2019 by lecedar

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 4/8/2019 at 4:27 AM, LordGood said:

people vote siege workshop out of the town phase but vote battering ram into the town phase Lord have mercy what are y'all doin

it can be later(town phase)  upgrade...  to develop some technologies to get to this point.

 

On 4/9/2019 at 10:04 AM, borg- said:

One of my plans for walls is a little more vuneraveis but faster to build and less cost.

 

what about some stone walls similar to the palisades in size. Lordgood work some of this for Carthage.

[Nescio]

For your information, workshops have now been enabled for all civilizations: rP22984

@Alexandermb, do you think you create a stone-thrower for the Mauryas?

[Alexandermb]

28 minutes ago, Nescio said:

For your information, workshops have now been enabled for all civilizations: rP22984

@Alexandermb, do you think you create a stone-thrower for the Mauryas?

with some good references sure! i just fixed last night a bug in my new procedural wood and looks good to go.

Here a WIP of the Cheiroballista ive done for fun:

Spoiler

Look at the normals event have knots!

[bioinfornatics]

battering ram was created to counter fortification so I think battering ram  should appear little after wall fortification

Also I think if all faction have battering ram  that will remove the advantage of celts factions especially Gauls . How you to balance this ?

battering ram  can be easily kill by the sword cavalry and any pool of sword units . I do not think this units it is OP the only things would be to limits the quantity of those units (3 by example) and the problem it is solved

[Philip the Swaggerless]

Siege Workshop:

I think a Town Phase siege workshop that creates weak battering rams is good idea.  Like the "2 or 4 guys with a log" mentioned earlier.  Then in the city phase new siege units become available based on civilization. I don't want to see universal covered rams or other siege units for all civs.  Let each have their own devices.  I don't think the covered battering ram should be an upgrade to the "2 or 4 guys with a log"; it should be a separate unit.  The "2 or 4 guys with a log" should be less expensive than the covered ram and get built quicker.

By the way, how about making siege weapons garrisoned in siege workshops automatically get repaired like soldiers regaining health in a temple?

Walls:

Here's my thing about walls -  I NEVER build stone walls in the town phase.  Seriously, who has time for that!?  Committing soldiers to building instead of gathering resources to expand pop, and also delaying your ability to go to the city phase because of the stone requirement makes stone walls too cost-prohibitive for the town phase.  I like the idea of cheaper stone walls that can be built quicker than city walls beginning in phase 2.  But if they are allowed to be upgraded to city walls in the city phase the upgrade cost and research time needs to be significant.

Fortress:

Removing siege production from the Fortress is a tough call.  I'm no historian but it doesn't seem realistic.  On the other hand anything that makes it harder to defend your fortress by garrisoning and ungarrisoning battering rams might be a step in the right direction.

[Nescio]

On 9/23/2019 at 12:35 PM, Alexandermb said:

with some good references sure!

Perhaps and adaptation of the Macedonian stone-thrower could be used for now? Unfortunately I don't know of any depictions or detailed descriptions of Indian siege engines, other than words indicating they existed, e.g. U. Singh A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India (2008) p 272:

Spoiler

Jaina texts states that Ajatashatru [5th C BC] used two unique weapons in the war—one was a catapult capable of hurling huge pieces of stone, and the other a chariot with an attached mace, which created havoc in enemy ranks.

Kauṭilya's Arthaśāstra chapter III (translated by R. Shamasastry):

Spoiler

In those canals, there shall be collected stones, spades
(kuddála), axes (kuthári), varieties of staffs, cudgel (musrinthi),
hammers (mudgara), clubs, discus, machines (yantra), and such
weapons as can destroy a hundred persons at once (sataghni),
together with spears, tridents, bamboo-sticks with pointed edges
made of iron, camel-necks, explosives (agnisamyógas), and
whatever else can be devised and formed from available materials.

and chapter XVIII (idem):

Spoiler

The Superintendent of the Armoury shall employ experienced workmen of tried ability to manufacture in a given time and for fixed wages wheels, weapons, mail armour, and other accessory instruments for use in battles, in the construction or defence of forts, or in destroying the cities or strongholds of
enemies.

All these weapons and instruments shall be kept in places suitably prepared for them. They shall not only be frequently dusted and transferred from one place to another, but also be exposed to the sun. Such weapons as are likely to be affected by heat and vapour (úshmopasneha) and to be eaten by worms shall be kept in safe localities. They shall also be examined now and then with reference to the class to which they belong, their forms, their characteristics, their size, their source, their value, and their total quantity.

Sarvatobhadra, jamadagnya, bahumukha, visvásagháti, samgháti, yánaka, parjanyaka, ardhabáhu, and úrdhvabáhu are immoveable machines (sthirayantrám).

Pánchálika, devadanda, súkarika, musala, yashti, hastiváraka, tálavrinta, mudgara, gada, spriktala, kuddála, ásphátima, audhghátima, sataghni, trisúla, and chakra are moveable machines.

Sakti, prása, kunta, hátaka, bhindivála, súla, tomara, varáhakarna, kanaya, karpana, trásika, and the like are weapons with edges like a ploughshare (halamukháni).

Bows made of tála (palmyra), of chápa (a kind of bamboo), of dáru (a kind of wood), and sringa (bone or horn) are respectively called kármuka, kodanda, druna, and dhanus.

Bow-strings are made of múrva (Sansviera Roxburghiana), arka (Catotropis Gigantea), sána (hemp), gavedhu (Coix Barbata), venu (bamboo bark), and snáyu (sinew).

Venu, sara, saláka, dandásana, and nárácha are different kinds of arrows. The edges of arrows shall be so made of iron, bone or wood as to cut, rend or pierce.

Nistrimsa, mandalágra, and asiyashti are swords. The handles of swords are made of the horn of rhinoceros, buffalo, of the tusk of elephants, of wood, or of the root of bamboo.

Parasu, kuthára, pattasa, khanitra, kuddála, chakra, and kándachchhedana are razor-like weapons.

Yantrapáshána, goshpanapáshána, mushtipáshána, rochaní (mill-stone), and stones are other weapons (áyudháni).

Lohajáliká, patta, kavacha, and sútraka are varieties of armour made of iron or of skins with hoofs and horns of porpoise, rhinoceros, bison, elephant or cow.

Likewise sirastrána (cover for the head), kanthatrána (cover for the neck), kúrpása (cover for the trunk), kanchuka (a coat extending as far as the knee joints), váravána (a coat extending as far as the heels), patta (a coat without cover for the arms), and nágodariká (gloves) are varieties of armour.

Veti, charma, hastikarna, tálamúla, dharmanika, kaváta, kitika, apratihata, and valáhakánta are instruments used in self-defence (ávaranáni).

Ornaments for elephants, chariots, and horses as well as goads and hooks to lead them in battle-fields constitute accessory things (upakaranáni).

(Besides the above) such other delusive and destructive contrivances (as are treated of in Book XIV) together with any other new inventions of expert workmen (shall also be kept in stock.)

The Superintendent of Armoury shall precisely ascertain the demand and supply of weapons, their application, their wear and tear, as well as their decay and loss.

On 9/27/2019 at 2:12 AM, Philip the Swaggerless said:

By the way, how about making siege weapons garrisoned in siege workshops automatically get repaired like soldiers regaining health in a temple?

Actually that is already the case: this aura.

On 9/27/2019 at 2:12 AM, Philip the Swaggerless said:

Removing siege production from the Fortress is a tough call.  I'm no historian but it doesn't seem realistic.

What do you mean exactly?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

14 hours ago, Nescio said:

Perhaps and adaptation of the Macedonian stone-thrower could be used for now? Unfortunately I don't know of any depictions or detailed descriptions of Indian siege engines, other than words indicating they existed, e.g. U. Singh A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India (2008) p 272:

 

Yeah, did this for the Mauryas in DE:

[Philip the Swaggerless]

On 9/28/2019 at 5:30 AM, Nescio said:

What do you mean exactly?

It means I assumed that in real life siege weapons were constructed in fortresses.  But I don't really know.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

A more likely case in most scenarios is that sappers constructed machines using available lumber around the area they besieged.  Naturally if the engines were too complicated for field engineers to make on site, I'd say a workshop would be a more likely case.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Thorfinn the Shallow Minded

[Loki1950]

Most of the larger siege engines where built at the location of the siege from local materials though some components where built elsewhere and taken to the site as @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded states my I type slowly

Enjoy the Choice

[Genava55]

The Romans army often carried out their small engines with them, like the scorpion.

Edit: siege tower and battering ram were clearly built on site however.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Genava55

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

 

[av93]

On 9/28/2019 at 12:30 PM, Nescio said:

Perhaps and adaptation of the Macedonian stone-thrower could be used for now? Unfortunately I don't know of any depictions or detailed descriptions of Indian siege engines, other than words indicating they existed, e.g. U. Singh A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India (2008)

That sources are after Mauryas contact with Alexander, or before? Maybe a mix of Macedonian Stone Thrower with later medieval Indian engines? (mixing Indian aesthetics with Macedonian mechanism) Also would be nice maybe to add rams to Elephant civs (Mauryan, Egypt, Seleucids, Kushites and Carthaginians), and Kushites ( @Sundiata) had stone throwers IRC