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my idea for pikeman is a unit with a high hack damage absorption and strong hack / pierce attack, but slow and weak against projectiles/ranged units. Historically is more correct.

I don't mind giving some civs more citizen soldier options, but keep in mind that civs having weaknesses is also a good thing. Pushing champions to phase 2 is something that should be experimented with, though moving cavalry champions and ranged champions would likely be a bit too much. Phase 2 siege can be interesting but I don't think it should ever be more than rams. I disagree, going to P2 gives you absolutely no benefit if you plan to play aggressive. The eco techs are quite expensive and military techs are much too expensive. There's a reason you don't see players getting military upgrades in P2 and why the P2 eco techs frequently get left until after clicking P3. For Athen P2 champs, there is this patch: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3930

Your point about pikes absorbing projectiles is interesting, but you can't possibly use a 6 meters long heavy pike like a baseball bat, you may at most hopes it catches something by chance. Also, phalangites couldn't move shields with the same liberty as hoplites and legionaries (they needed both hands for moving the pike), so they couldn't make a wall shield like other heavy infantry. That was a very common tactic, it was not unique to romans (although it's understood that romans employed a perfected version sometimes, called testudo). I did a quick reserch, and I found this interesting Q&A. It's also worth noting that phalangites wore very effective armor, that persians weren't used to confront, Alexander himself used to wear an armor of the same kind phalangintes had access to (linothorax). In a fair simulation like 0AD, if players are in pair with armor and armor-piercing technologies, archers should be pretty effective against phalangites, more so than against hoplites, I think, not less for sure.

there must be limits on how micro can be effective, otherwise dancing is acceptable too. My idea is that you should never be required to tell your men exactly who to aim to, there shouldn't be strategies to attract enemy fire to units that are a distraction and that, at the same time, manage to avoid projectiles or the consequences of hits taken in any way. There is request for lowering turn times of jav cavalry. That should not work for dancing though. Assigning damage to whovever is being shot, without any randomness, would resolve this problem once and for all, and it's the same path taken by all AoE-style RTS I know. I think it's mostly a good idea. By the way, he problem with that video is actually that the camels weren't shooting at the cav. You can see that they are chasing women and ignoring the horsemen. If cav attacked the camels, they would have achieved even better results.

My comment: If you move the Athenian Marine to the barracks or gymnasium, then I suggest you rename the unit back to its original name from years ago: Athenian Ekdromos. Full circle. If you have it trained from the dock, then "Athenian Marine" still works, but I'd keep it trained only from the dock. Keeps it unique and also keeps it thematic (marines make sense trained from a dock or ship from an in-gameworld perspective). I like either option.

Creo que hay una animación en mi mod hecha por @Lopess.

Please put some reasons why you disliked or liked the alpha 23 ranged infantry speeds in comparison to alpha 24's ranged infantry speeds, and what should have been the course of action to equalize the overall power of different ranged infantry types, slingers being more op than the other two in alpha 23.

This mod incorporates structure tree changes proposed by our historian @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded: 1. Athenians can build gym since phase 2 and train champions from it, complemented by a marathon tech to speed up champions. 2. Spartans can build Military Mess Hall in phase 2 and train the champion spearman from it. 3. Macedonians can build siege workshop in phase 2 then train siege tower and crossbow from it 4. Macedonians have access to Hetairos Companion Cavalry since phase 2. 5. Sparta and Rome get new allied slinger unit. 6. Athenians can train phase 2 champions from gym and after unlocking Iphicratean reform, marines can also be trained from the gym. 7. Romans can train Socii Slingers and Socii javelin cavalry from the new Socii Auxiliary camp, available since town phase. 8. Iberians get an unique Soliferreum elite champion javelineer unit. Newest update: compatible with A25 Git link: https://github.com/Yekaterina999/Thorfinn-Balancing-mod thorfinn.zip

Hi, I was wondering if the implementation of a auto-explore function is feasible and if there is any work going on this direction? I found this: but this thread is too long and is pretty much dead! Would anyone but me be interested in this auto-explore feature? Thanks!

Grab a woman and have her attack a rabbit. Auto-explore.

Exactly. If we use the exponential model and choose the appropriate value for k then the problem would be solved. The extra range of archers would not increase its damage per second because each hit has been diminished so much by the long distance.

@Stan` you are the VIP here, how we can access to the "boss" of the project?

Not sure I really understand this point. In my view, you can still have close range damage to a reasonable value, so that it is not too overpowered. Maybe you can elaborate a bit more on this? What I like with @Yekaterina proposal is that it still feels like "unique" approach to projectile in RTS, while solving dancing/turn rate issues. Constant damage independently of distance, I am afraid this is again a recipe for hard balancing between ranged units . Also, having decreased damage when distance increase will also counter balance the fact that archer are too good at turtling, without having to touch their mobility. WDYT?

It depends i think , there is skill in optimizing your eco and that is almost completely different from combat skill. The first tends to become a glass ceiling while the latter is far trickier to gauge precisely because it has so many variables. Being good at troop micro and game sense / map knowledge are good ways to measure a player's skill but aren't always rewarded. For example, micro management's impact decreasses as the game goes on( and most games only end after phase 3) as it either dies when the game starts to chug and/or isn't really effective when going for a players home base( from my experience, an overwhelming majority of fights happen at someone's doorstep , there isn't almost any open field battles) and lastly some, not all, micro intensive units suffer from extremely awful path finding and collision issues. Might as well just set the spawn point of barracks to where the fight is and shift + mouse 1 away.

Here is my mod for the camp according to nani. Changes: 1. Health decreased from 2250 to 1500 2. Maximum garrison is 30 units 3. Maximum arrow count decreased from 15 to 7 4. Capturepoints decreased from 1500 to 1000rome-camp.zip 5. Capable of all Roman siege and ram (if captured by other civ), but rate of production decreased from 0.7 to 0.49. 6. Maximum range of defensive arrows is now 40 metres with damage 6.7 instead of 10. 7. Default arrow is 1 instead of 3.

Even more spicy Newton drag ( more realistic but sometimes non-analytical). You might like this result though:

Nice one alre. A physically more accurate model would be A*exp(-kx), where A is attack strength at point blank range, k is some constant value and x distance. But this might take up more processing because of more maths.

Please do. I will upload my version of Zapotec and Bronze age Egyptians onto mod.io as well. Just registered an account there.

Check this out. I made a forum to share the technical bits and you guys please keep talking about history / unit design here.

OK. I will drop the Myceneans. I think my approach would be to restore the civs separately instead of in a pack, so that people who only want 1 faction can just download the mod for that 1 faction. It is also easier for me ; )

Actually 0 A.D. was supposed to be the name of the franchise (e.g. Age of Empires) The game you play is called Empires Ascendant, and the Suebi, Imperial Romans, Parthians ex were supposed to be Empires Besieged.

Buenas, Y aquí líderes(caudillos/generales) Celtíberos para la "ia"[inteligencia artificial]; 1-Olíndico;----------------- (Olónico) "Caudillo celtíbero" (169 a. C.) 2-Caro de Segeda;---------(¿?) "jefe militar de la tribus celtíbera de los Belos"(153 a. C.) 3-Litenón;------------------(¿?) "Caudillo de Numancia "(152 a.c) 4-Ambon;------------------(¿?)"Caudillo de la tribu celtíbera de los Arévacos" 5-Leukon;-------------------(¿?)"Caudillo de la tribu celtíbera de los Arévacos" 6-Tangino;------------------(¿?)"Guerrero celtíbero que rompió el cerco de numancia"(141a.c) 7-Megara;-----------------(¿?)"Caudillo de Numancia " 8-Retógenes;-------------(Rectugenos)"Caudillo de la tribu celtíbera de los Arévacos"(133a.c) info en orden de aparición (1-8); https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olíndico https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caro_de_Segeda http://dbe.rah.es/biografias/22746/litennon https://www.celticahispana.com/los-heroes-de-numancia/ https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerras_celtíberas https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangino https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megara_(Numancia) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retógenes_el_Caraunio Posibles unidades para héroes íberos; 1-Caro de segeda. 2-Tangino. 3-Megara. Disculpen las molestias*

See the discussion here https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2884

Buenas ; Aquí les traigo posibles líderes(caudillos/régulos) íberos para la "ia"[inteligencia artificial]; 1-Orisón;--------------------------(¿?)"Rey de los Oretanos" (263 a.c -222 a.c) 2-Edecón;-------------------------(Edesco)"Rey de los Edetanos" (209 a.c) 3-Indíbil;-------------------------(Indobeles )"Rey de los ilergetes"(Fechas; 258 a. C. - 205 a. C) 4-Mandonio;----------------------(¿?) "Régulo de los ausetanos "( fechas; 205a.c) 5-Budar;---------------------------(¿?)"Régulo íbero" en revuelta íbera (197-195 a. C.) 6-Besadino;----------------------(Besadines)"Régulo íbero" en revuelta íbera (197-195 a. C.) 7-Culcas;--------------------------(Culchas) "Rey íbero "revuelta íbera (197-195 a. C.) 8-Luxinio;-------------------------(¿?)"Régulo íbero" en revuelta íbera (197-195 a. C.) (Régulo ; General tribal íbero que era elegido por las asambleas de tribus o ciudades íberas para encabezar una campaña militar o una defensa ante un invasor .Podía comandar a su tribu o ciudad o también encabezar una coalición de tribus y ciudades ) info en orden de aparición (1-8); https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orisón https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edecón https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indíbil https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandonio https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budar https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besadino https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culcas https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxinio Posibles unidades para héroes íberos; 1-Orisón. 2-Indíbil. 3-Mandonio. Disculpe las molestias*

thorfinn A25 iber jav.zip Hi @soloooy0 Sorry to keep u waiting here is the mod for dev version of A25. It might run on A24 as well.

I agree. I don't think the resilience of attributed to phalangites against ranged infantry had much to do with their gear. While its true that they were heavily armored, its not like heavy spearmen weren't wearing the exact same armor too, with the added advantage of a great big shield. Something worth considering is that in ancient battles, moral and intimidation were much, much more important than they are in modern warfare. Enemies were defeated, not by killing them to the last man, but by convincing them to break and run away. It could be the tight formation of pikemen made it harder to see the casualties inflicted by projectile attack than the looser formations used by other infantry types. Or maybe they were so hemmed in that it was impossible to turn and run away as an individual even if you wanted to. Regardless... I agree that the point is well made. The pikemen models in the game do not look they should by 25% more resistant to ranged attack than the spearmen. This is a case of art design saying one and gameplay saying another.

Pikemen typically formed a phalanx, in which the sarissa of the men in back rows are lifted at an angle, forming a dense matrix of spikes (like a hedgehog). The sarissa points are capable of deflecting incoming projectiles. Very few projectiles can actually pass the columns of spike and reach the soldier. Even if they do, the soldiers have helmets to protect them. At the front the Sarissa prevents enemy from reaching them, and can intercept incoming projectiles like how you would play tennis / baseball.

Sure about that? What's your source? Persian archers are actually the only ones currently rendered with a shield in game. I am happy that there is willingness to discuss roles, but I must say @Yekaterina's proposal confuses me. Most asked changes with historical groundings are: - increase importance of melee with respect to ranged - make pikemen stronger as melee fighters, not as arrows soackers, like @LetswaveaBook said. I believe @borg- made a mod like this. - mitigate, or straight out cancel the differences in damage types among melee units

I do like that we are considering unit roles. What my questions are about the game: 1-Why do pikemen have high armor (pikemen did not carry a shield as big as swordsmen did)? 2-Why do swordsmen beat spearmen in melee and why is pikemen in melee defeated by both swordsmen and spearmen? To be historically accurate, if you have a spear you can carry a big shield and you deserve the defensive bonus, while the pikemen should win in melee against spearmen. So it seems to be in reverse.

There is no need to change projectile speeds. I am currently working on a script modification that will give support for 100% accurate projectiles (or any other percentage you want). It should be finished in a day or two.

@soloooy0 here.

If you want P2 champs check out thorfinn the shallow minded mod

Perhaps we can use an enlarged arrow model. Also, the landed arrows will be quite obvious. Another idea is show the arrows being stuck in the injured unit's body. That would be quite realistic. Even in real life you can't see flying arrows that well. We can go for a compromise value: 200m/s. This should still be visible yet difficult to dodge.

true that. the second part of the clip is the relevant one here.

I think it is not a problem if someone can micro to get good results. I think it would be an issue if there is no way to counteract. If you would have shot against the opposing infantry archers you would have been fine. So in my view, the system is not flawed but you misplayed.

Sure. You need to run git diff -U5000 > file.diff at the root of the repo and upload the diff file on Phab.

The problem is to continue with this of only blaming one faction. If they happen to tell all whites that they don't support certain supremacist views, and calling whites supremacists...all day in all the media, similar to feminism call all men "Potential rapists", what do you think is going on? They become what they are told so much not to do. Young people are rebellious. Imposing political correctness only forces people to react radically. if you are going to try to destroy the Nazi groups stop attacking them, the more they grow, even I would be treated as a Nazi for having a conservative position. What do you make the Nazis more famous for? I am completely against National Socialism. But it did not pass as the hypocritical media condemning, at one point, far from the horrors of WW2, Are they going to say, why did they hate Hitler? This is how these movements grow. I know many people who worship Hitler in Latin America. They always say that, they believe that if the media says something, you should think backwards. Those insults give them more power, if you censor them, more power ... they attract more young boys. With the people that I debate the most are with the Neo pagans. With horror I tell them that they grow more and more. The more we silence them, the more strength they are given. Then there is the paradox of tolerance ...

Brilliant @nani I think we just need to make sure that there is a reasonable amount of time for stopping the upgrade if one really wants to keep that enemy camp from getting stronger, perhaps a bit longer than current sentry to defense tower upgrade. Thoughts?

One-Click-Trees with the addon "Real Trees" ...

I am not so good xd

Check DE git for a Zapotec scout.

I agree, but at slow speed as nani suggested. I see a mod coming up.

Of course @soloooy0. I will make the mod for you. I would appreciate it if you can provide the model. Otherwise I will just use a brit javelineer as the model.

I think that there is an argument for introducing a technology for skirmishers that would increase their movement rate. They could start of with just a marginal difference in speed to not make them massively better from an economic perspective. Archers being a wee bit slower seems fair.

Well.. I can start I guess. I liked that different attack strategies were used depending on the ranged unit types. Ranged units were much more dynamic and variable in a23. The damage increases for slingers and skirmishers did not come close to compensating for their inability to reach archers. Archers have neigh unlimited flexibility and they can not be over-extended easily like in a23 archery accuracy and archery tradition were enough to make archers a bit op, let alone the effective buff to their speed. I think a good idea would be to revert speeds for them all to a23 levels and start changes for a25 from there. Slingers could remain the same speed as in a24, with skirmishers a bit faster and archers a bit slower.

Notice that no palisades were (ab)used by this player !!!!!!!! This is clearly an invitation for the enemy to come and try to take the civic center down. To me this demonstrate a high sense of morality and ethic by this player who wanted to assess the strengh of the combination fort/civic center with the only aim to try to comment on balancing posts in the forum!

-.- good start

Great reference here:

LOS CASTROS Y LAS GUERRAS LUSITANAS CAP3 El Legado Celta en España~Canal Historia España. El Legado Celta de Galicia | Documental Los pueblos celtas en la península ibérica | Gonzalo Ruiz Zapatero Castros de la Edad de Hierro en el área noroccidental(...) La indumentaria de la Edad del Hierro en la Península Ibérica PUEBLOS GUERREROS DE NAVARRA - Guía arqueológica de los castros la Edad del Hierro de Navarra. Castro Celtibérico de CASTIL DE GRIEGOS. Checa (Guadalajara)