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I think this (rank upgrades) is a great dimension to add to the game. It can go some lengths to distinguish booming versus military empowerment. I think there should be a longer term economic cost to these upgrades, and it I wonder if you would support the possibility that getting all of these upgrades for all units is actually a strategic failure. rank 2/3 units get worse at gathering, and an enemies rank 2/3 unit composition is beating your rank 2/3 composition, but your units in your base gathering res are also rank 2, so you are losing overall. I have been wondering what these Advanced, and Elite upgrades should cost: Advanced: 300 food 300 wood 200 metal 1:45 research time, adds 5 metal cost (and +25 food for cav) to unit and 10% training time Elite: 500 food 500 wood 500 metal 2:00 research time, adds another 10 metal cost (and +40 food for cav) to unit and further 20% training time This adds the economic question for the player: do I want to get blacksmith upgrades, postpone the choices for advanced/elite upgrades, and maintain my eco, or do I want to get this upgrade that empowers my units, but add an economic liability to them. Getting these upgrades is basically a "bet" on that unit, and since the upgrade has a long time to research, the timing could be complicated, so you could not always get it as an emergency reaction. Should any civs get a p1 advanced rank upgrade, or would this be to easy to do a rush with, despite the large cost and economic situation? My thinking is that champions could stay being trained at barracks, but upgrade to enable it could add some extra food and some metal and stone cost, by default train at fort with no unlock. I certainly agree that in a25 it is too easy to mass champions at a sudden time, but I think there should be a way to go: non-rank-upgraded CS, +champions strategy. @Dizaka @chrstgtr @ValihrAnt @Palaiologos @LetswaveaBook what do you think about @wowgetoffyourcellphone's concept, and my ideas on those upgrades?

they are a specialty, unit, just skimmed thru the dev thing dizaka started, they have no idea what they are talking about and im too tired/disinterested to adress every point , and argue over it since it would take hours. ill adress only 2 points made. 1: 10 vs 10 spear vs sword mercs spearmen die, so that must mean sword merc cavs are op. 2: sword merc cav almost beat skiritai commando, or are similar in strength so sword merc cavs are op. first of all merc cav swords are a specialty unit, jsut like skiritai, that are only avalible p2, as all sword cav. you have to take into account taht only a single civ has these units, carthage, no other civ has sword merceneries, and most civs have trouble massing cav merceneries given the production buildings cost too much like colonies 600, need to walk ,separate, to protect must spread out units ect. carthage has extremely weak build, other than mercs, that is their SPECIALTY so ofc they must excell at it, as it is rn pikes are op, and sword inf are viable as well in inf battles, but spear inf is the weakest mele infantry right now, archers have become very weak again in a25, not as bad as a23 but not far from it. carthage objectively even with this great unit sword merc cav is not even in top 5 strongest civs, everyone knows this as the cons balance out the pros. 10 spear shouldnt be able to beat a SPECIALTY unit that requires metal(so metal techs), additional production buildings(200 res), and should be a stronger version of regular cav. keep in mind regular cav cost 1500 res for 10 unlike 1000 for spear. i do believe 80 metal seems odd given 100/60 ratio of inf mercs then 60% of 150 is 90 but keep in mind that metal is expensive to mine compared to wood 0.75/0.5 so 50% more gain on wood than metal(less efficient, requires men for proper efficiency unlike wood/food that can be cut/gathered by women). and metal is more scarce than wood/food on standard maps. so a civ SPECIALTY unit (stronger than 1500 costing standard counterpart) can beat 1000 costing standard counter units? nothing wrong with that. 2: sword merc cav can almost beat skiritai commando? that is not appropriate, but this is an issue with sparta balancing more so than it is about carthage balancing, also do keep in mind that sword cav, or cav in general are the direct counter to sword inf, given their high hack armor added with high dps/hp although sword cav hav 1 less hack armor than spear cav it has to be kept in mind that cav hitpoints mainly come from hp, unlike mele where it often largely comes from armor therefore 3 hack is high for cav, even if it is low for inf. 80 costing unit, that has far less traintime, and has far far superior movement speed(highly valuable stat) shouldnt be able to beat 125 costing unit(altho only small part of it is metal (35)) given they are both specialty units unique to their own civs. to finish up i wanna mention 2 things. first of all cav are generally far stronger in tgs, because of the large map movement speed stat appericates in value, as well as multiple targets, with far more openings for entry, atack, manuvering. ability to move your power quickly is very viable and complete lack of cooperation and coordination of teams only excacerbates this. secondly if carthage cant do damage with this, 1 tool they have they are finished often given they mass a large amount, there are ways to counter carthage cav, and most other civs have equal or superior advantages/specialties. other mercs are lagely underused, and i feel the res avalibility factor would come into play more so if people played more defensively, where accumulating float would be nessesary before a fight as to sustain training units but this wont happen a25 i think given extremely weak buildings, there are usually too many openings to close to turtule/play strategically and not agressively where larger army/better eco wins by default as you cant avoid fights if your defensive buildings deal less dps than archers, with 0 tech. often people dont get mele damage upgrades, and hack armor upgrades which can give upto 50% advantage to carth sword cavs, often people dont secure farms via walling off, vision and men nearby, have spread out disorganized buildings,spread out disorganized units that are eazy to pick off. you cannot run from mele cavalry, they are too fast so you often cant avoid lost fights, only solution is to have large enough groups. try atacking carth player directly , if they are massing sowrd cav, as they will likely have a very weak base defended by archer/spear

@Imarok @Stan` @Freagarach might be interested.

Dear @user1, Offending player thevlasic quit rated game without resigning. My Lobby Name: Mastoras commands.txt

Merc cav OP. 10 min mark: 1 players resigned and 104 kills/21 deaths (Border - see first screenshot). 15:40 min mark: 2 players resigned and 206 kills/85 deaths (Border+Pocket - see 2nd screenshot). Pocket activity: On standby. I was border (blue) and pocket was Acanthis. Only received 100 stone and 200 metal by pocket initially. Carthage OP due to Mercs who can be available in <5 min and massed within 7/8 min. Because they only cost metal all you need to do is mine metal for mercs. Replay attached. Note: Strategy credit to @ValihrAnt @BreakfastBurrito_007@chrstgtr@Yekaterina@LetswaveaBook@alre@Player of 0AD@Lion.Kanzen@badosu@Jofursloft metadata.json commands.txt

- nerf sword cav slightly. even CS is OP - raise cost of melee mercs, ranged units have a very low increase in value with rank, melee units are much better when they rank up instead - consider reducing stats increases for cav, as they rank up easier than melee infantry. compare to ranged units, that don't have any stat upgrade - consider making mercenaries not making experience. this would make them more expendable and different from CS. more a game experience proposal than a balancing one.

When designing civs (or redesigning them), I think the focus should not just be on balance, but to make each civ "Favorite Worthy." What I mean is, each civ should have aspects that make it unique, fun, and cool enough to make stand out and make it worthy of vying for the community's "favorite" civ. In a "tier list" ideally it should be a struggle to decide which civ should be knocked down to a 'C'. They should all be clustered at B, A, and S. Some ideas: General Remove champion "unlock" techs and move them back to Fortress unless otherwise stated. Move Heroes to Civic Center unless otherwise stated. All Citizen-Soldiers types in every civ have Rank Promotion technologies up to Advanced. Exceptions 1 type of Citizen-Soldier per civ will have an additional promotion tech up to Elite. 1 type of Citizen-Soldier per civ will have no promotion techs. Unless otherwise stated, all civs retain their current bonuses and technologies. Athenians Retool the "Delian League" team bonus. All allies can train the Delian Marine from their Dock. -20% build time for all Ships and Boats. -20% research time for all Dock Technologies. "Painted Stoa" structure (build limit: 1), which grants the "Greek Architecture" aura (Buildings +20% health). Remove the "Greek Architecture" bonus from all other Greek civs. Heroes trained instantly at the Prytaneion (not Civic Center). Gymnaseion Replaces the Barracks Larger footprint and +20% greater health. Slightly more expensive. Trains "Hoplite" Citizen-Infantry and Champion Infantry "City Guard." Archery Range available to train Athenian Militia Slinger, Cretan Mercenary Archer, and Thracian Peltast. "Scythian Archer" Champion Infantry trained at the Fortress. Britons Chariots Available from Town Phase, after researching unlocking tech. When "killed", the Javelineer rider jumps off and continues to battle (until he too is killed) Slightly underpowered in Town Phase, but has a City Phase upgrade "Reinforced Undercarriage" which makes them extra stronk. Add Infantry Swordsman to the citizen soldier roster, available in Town Phase. Reimplement the Population Bonus special for their buildings, but at +1 population, instead of the old +2. Carthaginians Embassies "unlock" ethnic mercenaries at the Barracks, Stable, and Range. War Elephants have a "Tower" upgrade, which adds a Howdah prop to them. Cothon Shipyard shoots arrows. A fourth hero can be "Xanthippus of Sparta", who specifically boosts mercenaries. A 3rd champion, available at the Fortress: "Veteran African Infantry", a champion swordsman with a mix of Carthaginian and Roman equipment. "Sacred Band" champions still trained at the Temple. Gauls Give them a cheap Infantry Archer, "Gallic Hunter," available in Town Phase. Add Infantry Swordsman to the citizen soldier roster, available in Village Phase. Carnyx Trumpeter should have a "Horn Blow" special ability that temporarily improves attack of nearby Gallic troops. This is automatically done every 2 minutes in battle, but can be manually activated by the player every 1 minute. Iberians Keep the free starting walls, but remove the free gates (just have openings; the player can close them with fresh walls and gates if they wish). Allow the Monument to be built anywhere, even in enemy territory. "Burning Pitch" technology allows players to toggle javelin-throwing units between regular (anti-infantry) and burning (anti-structure) javelins. "Horse Country" tech at the Corral, for another -10% cavalry training time. Champion Infantry and Champion Cavalry can swap between Sword and Javelin. Kushites Give them a free Sanga Cattle at the start of the match. A new "Extensive Husbandry" tech at the Corral makes training animals faster. "Iron Smelting" tech makes Forges and Forge Technologies a lot cheaper and faster. "Iron Exports" makes bartering for Metal at the Market more profitable. Macedonians Barracks New "Royal Barracks" upgrade for individual Barracks in the City Phase. +50% Health to the upgraded Barracks. Can train Elite Phalangites and Champion Hypaspists. Stables New "Royal Stables" upgrade for individual Stables in City Phase. +50% Health to the upgraded Stable. Can train Elite Thessalian Cavalry and Champion Companion Cavalry. A 4th hero "General Craterus" boosts Phalangites specifically. "Naval Arms Race" technology unlocks the "Hexeres" heavy warship for the Macedonians. Mauryas Remove Population Cap civ bonus, but... Citizen-Infantry. Bonus: 0.5 population cost Bonus: -50% train time Bonus: -25% resource cost Penalty: -50% gathering rate Penalty: -50% health Penalty: -25% attack Worker Elephant can construct buildings again. Maiden Guards can swap from bow to sword. Mauryas receive a free Palace at the beginning of the match. The hero Chanakya can be trained in tandem with the other heroes (he doesn't count toward the "hero" training limit) 4th Maurya hero "Bindusara." Persians Keep Population Cap civ bonus. Organic units start out with -15% health and -10% train time. Receive a free "Yakchal" Ice House at the start of the match for a +5% health bonus to units. Build up to 4 more Ice Houses for additional +5% health boosts for each one built. They get more expensive for each one built. Ptolemies "Syncretism" special technology in Town Phase. Allows Priests the ability to build the "Isis Statue" and "Serapis Statue." Isis Statue Short-range Aura: Nearby Gatherers +20% gather rates Serapis Statue Long-range Aura: Nearby Units +10% health "Lighthouse of Alexandria" is a 2nd Wonder Player can still only choose to build 1 Wonder, but the Lighthouse can be built on the shore and gives a large vision range. "Temple of Edfu" would be the option to build on a non-water map. Romans An extra big House available in City Phase called the Insula ("Tenement Building") Population Bonus: 20 (plus house pop techs) Triarius trained at Elite rank (no promotion techs necessary). 2nd Team Bonus "Socii Allies" Allied Soldiers +10% attack within range of a Roman Civic Center or Army Camp. Seleucids Very much the same as they are now, except... Given back their Library. Spartans Team bonus now applies to all Melee Infantry (not just Spear Infantry). "Sysition" replaces the Barracks. "Hoplite" Citizen-Soldier, Champion Infantry "Spartiates," and Spartan Heroes all trained here. The "Helot Practice Range" Archery Range class building Trains Helot Skirmisher and Helot Slinger "Helot Emancipation" technology unlocks the ability for Helot units to upgrade individually to Light Hoplites. New "Helot" support units Cannot construct buildings, but... +25% resource gathering ability over Female Citizens. Can be captured by other players

whats wrong with having extreme weak and strong points balancing each other out? is that not the point of the game? if there are no variations of stats, factors, ect then its no longer fun, then civs lose their uniqueness ect. also it is not a one trick pony, carthage also has avalible to it other mercs sword inf merc, jav merc, sling merc all with superior stats altho ranged ones largely useless accuracy boost given p2 battles are too large and bad accuracy is probably even benefitial. spear cav mercs are rarely used but also there. also carth has elephants as well as all other siege, 2 great heroes and spear champs from temple. while some of these things are all not as signficant without these things the only sword merc cav advantage wouldnt be enough to make carth viable.

Yeah, I would make it relatively easy to rank up to Advanced, but 2-3 times harder to rank up to Elite. Or just make auto-ranking hard to do all-around, but add Promotion techs that players have to research and buy.

The problem I mostly encountered with sword cav is that in order to survive I must have at least 20+ soldiers in the rushed woodline. The more the sword cavs, the more units I need to counter them (if 20 sword cavs mixed sword and jav attack me I need to have like 30 units to defend). This becomes a serious problem when it comes to 1v1 matches. Except from subalpine, india and savanna biome, in the other biomes I need to keep active 3-4 woodlines when I pass 150 pop (otherwise I exhaust the woodline too fast) and obv I cannot keep an army of 30+ soldiers to defend every woodline. The extreme rapidity with which the cavs move allows to the enemy to kill any group of less than 20 units in your territory, and if you move reinforcements the cavs can run away easily. This becomes really annoying because rushing with sword+jav cavs is so easy, while defending it is so hard. I think that the solution you propose is not really a solution because in this kind of fights most of the units basically don't even survive to the rush (while a lot of sword cav merch arrive to r3). I think a solution could be eliminating the auto-ranking r2 and making it an upgrade which can be researched in P3 or that requires other previous upgrades (something similar to a bonus that was present in the previous alphas and that allowed to mace barracks to train automatically r2 pikes). And, obviously, nerfing cavs in general.

I was waiting for this, lol. Recently I was doing tests and I discovered that without any blacksmith or stable upgrades for any party, these cavalry nearly beat skiritai commandos from sparta which take longer to train and are much more expensive. They also easily overcome 111 HP spartan spearmen still with no upgrades, in the 10 vs 10 I did, there were 3 half health cavalry remaining. Narrowly beating spearmen (even without the +11 hp from sparta) as a cavalry unit should be something only done by well upgraded champion melee cavalry. One of the main problems are that rank 2 units only need 1 or 2 favorable fights to advance to rank 3, where they become much more powerful. With swordcav in rank 2, it is very easy to rank up simply by killing archers or women. (this can be in minute 9, before most people are p2) I dont see many other mercenaries being very op, but then again the alpha is not so old, and we are discovering swordcav as a separate category to be op as well. The OPness of these units is perhaps more pronounced from the intersection of mercs and swordcav OPness. Keep in mind that if we nerf swordcav and mercs, these units will suffer a lot, perhaps too much. 3 balancing options come to mind, depending on how op other mercs are found to be versus swordcav as an isolated op merc: reduce the rate at which mercenaries gain experience, so that spears will rank up faster in a longer engagement and the tide will turn for the spears after some initial losses. I think this will effect OP mercs units more than non OP mercs, because non-OP mercs do not take engagements versus their number 1 counter. If (1) is found to be a problem for other mercs that were not op, then we can add back the 10 metal cost from CS swordcav back to the swordcav template for mercs. If this is too big a nerf it could be changed to 5 metal. In CS swordcav, the 10 metal supposedly accounted for the sword. This might help the general cav balance as well: perhaps instead of nerfing mercenary experience rate, we could give a bonus to experience gained by spearmen when engaging cavalry units. ***Perhaps a moderate combination of 1 and 3, for example: -25% experience rate in general for mercs, and +{25-50}% experience rate for spearmen when fighting cavalry. I like this one because it does some to nerf general cavalry and may help us in the champions department too. Also it is extra careful not to hurt mercs overall. I dislike option 2 because this still allows them to be very op militarily, it just might take slightly longer to get them. @Dizaka which do you think is better between these two. Others: what do you think of these solutions? or do you think these units are OP despite evidence from Dizaka?

I like the visions for the civs, to give them all some unique mechanics. I am particularly interested in this in the shorter term however: I like this idea, and I feel these upgrades should be more expensive than regular blacksmith upgrades especially the one for elite rank (assuming its the same as "veteran" rank). Perhaps the "elite" upgrade would be more expensive, and add a 10 metal cost to the unit.

We want to avoid one-trick pony. A civ should not be "ok" if it is op at one thing and bad at everything else.