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Balancing Advisors
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BreakfastBurrito_007 last won the day on September 16 2023

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  1. @Feldfeld thanks for working on these map balances, I'm excited to play "pizza" with balanced wood!
  2. The situation changes when you have 100+ unit battles, some players have complained that everything dies too fast.
  3. In theory you could micro well enough to completely avoid damage from the pikeman. It's really interesting to see the long reach of pikemen play a role here, where before it didnt matter since they did negligible damage anyway. It's nice now to see pikemen and spearmen having different strengths versus cavalry.
  4. @leopard you are playtesting them. Thanks for your efforts. The pikemen here are rank 3, melee units have added damage, armor, and hp with each rank, compared to ranged units which only get accuracy and hp. The strength of melee rankups is acknowledged to be a problem by most players, so there will be some reduction to the rankup bonuses. Try the same scenario with rank 1 units from both types and you'll find it much easier to kill the pikemen.
  5. @leopard I've found that cavalry only compositions are very rare and hard to pull off. I've had some successful cav play and some disasters myself. A lot of players are having success with some cavalry and some infantry, sometimes operating independently. I think the main change has been that cavalry is not universally superior to infantry as it was before the mod, which is good. A balance challenge emerges for civs like persians whose strengths lie mostly in cav.
  6. the change to net damage across all units is definitely smaller than the net change to units durability (melee lost armor). The driver of any net ttk change is because of the reduction of melee armor. Before this mod, battles felt slower because either before or after sniping there was this damage sponge you had to kill. I think one reason why melee seem to kill ranged units faster is because they rank up while killing them and this increases their damage, hp, and armor further. I think further changes to melee/ranged balance aren't clear, but reduction to the rank up bonuses of melee is a clear change.
  7. Interestingly, quite a few players particularly Havran have argued that champions have become meta. I'm not saying I agree. In fact my argument so far about balance is that its actually pretty good. It is truly a weird situation to have almost every player claim one thing or another is OP with some certainty, all while having very little agreement. Clearly the meta has been more elusive than everyone thinks. If there is any one thing that I think most people can agree is now OP it is spartans and athenians, the reasons being several bonuses and heroes that combine particularly well with the melee rebalance: iphricates (previously determined to be OP): seems to be more important now that melee units have less armor Leonidas: the damage addition to spearmen is much more significant now that the base rate is increased Skiritai commandos start rank 3 which is now a much stronger advantage over rank 1 hoplite tradition: improved rank up speed means hoplites can reach rank 2/3 in one good fight, fast enough to make a big difference in the fight in which they rank up. Combining these civ specific bonuses with the melee rebalance has led to melee units from these civs being too strong. I think removing armor from melee rankup bonuses, and nerfing iphricates would solve these concerns effectively.
  8. At the start of the community mod changes were limited to bugfixes and small unit/hero/civ tweaks. The main vision of the mod was to act as a testing environment for future changes. Through 2022, 2023 and until now the community mod has served as the base game for quite a few 0ad players. This is the first release of the community mod to feature significant experimentation, and it has been both successful and unsuccessful. Every player has felt some level of discomfort as their established understanding of the game is challenged, some people reject such discomfort and some people tolerate it. People who have considered the changes and adapted to them by and large are contributing to the mod (and 0ad) with constructive criticism. That is really good to see. Another group of people who do not wish for the game to change, who are unable to adapt and learn, yearn to execute the same strategies that they have always preferred. When they encounter the discomfort of looking outside of their box, they become enraged. For this group it feels like the end of the world, or the end of 0ad. Its obviously no use to include people of the second category in playtesting as it is in the community mod, because they can't or don't explain what it is they don't like (what is imbalanced?, what is broken?, what plays poorly? ect.). In previous alphas where there were balance issues there was nearly unanimous understanding, think of merc cav, firecav of a25, slingers of a23, or archers of a24. In the case of comm mod 6, there is almost no agreement between the most vocal disparagers of the mod. The lack of constructive feedback from this most vocal group is an indication that its best to protect these people from new things by making sure that the base game is in a bug free and balanced state upon alpha releases. This way, players interested in contributing to balancing/game development can test things, provide feedback and then go back to the base game if there are issues with the community mod version.
  9. There are many proposed ideas for adjusting non-random buildingAI for better gameplay outcomes, I'm gonna list some here: reduce max arrow count in cc random arrows for cc and fort, but keep non-random for towers increasing arrow damage with phase or blacksmith tech (ranged damage) fixed ranges for buildings, or adjust the default range so that it matches the current default+bonus for a flat map. random arrows default, player click focuses arrows. I've noticed that the primary change is that the cost/benefit analysis of diving under the cc to get kill is much more complicated now, it used to be that you would only trade hp that would eventually make you need to heal your units in the cc. Now that there is an immediate threat (units actually die) from the cc, a rusher needs to make sure that what they do under the cc is worth losing at least one unit. At the same time rushers and rush defenders are learning ways to distract and focus cc fire respectively. It's good to see players developing skills to maximize their results for both defense and offense in these scenarios.
  10. I think people should also recognize when making their vote that keeping the changes in the mod allows them to be balanced and tweaked, where as "bad change" is preferring the previous version with any undesirable features that we have accepted for a while as a playerbase. Basically "bad change" is if you see absolutely no potential for the change to improve gameplay.
  11. this is how the implemented buildingai works unless there are bugs. Be sure that there are units closer than buildings and that you didnt attack-click the building.
  12. Arbitrary limitations on in-game functions like champs or sniping show that balance problems are present, capping the number of these things isnt really a solution but a coping mechanism. So far there hasn't been enough gameplay of the new mod to establish what, if anything is OP. Many people claim certain things are op when they lose to it, but there needs to be widespread agreement to make a conclusion. In fact several in game factors in the mod are changed to the detriment of the camel rush, consider: non random building arrows (kills individual camels as opposed to weakening all of them) spearcav have increased damage (this is mathematically before the 3x counter, so the counter is effectively buffed)
  13. Well this micro is really only theoretical until someone can make it work. I agree that the logic is simple, but this would be very difficult to execute. Don’t throw around the word sniping here as it’s not applicable here. The value of shift clicking in the situation is not there either, since the defender would want to respond in real time to the movements of the attacker. “Spam clicking” is a highly unrealistic projected outcome, like your personal boogeyman that you see around every alley.
  14. Thats quite a good point. The random arrow system seems like a placeholder for some system that could yield better gameplay results. I know there will be some growing pains because players and balance have only known random arrows, but its definitely for the best to have something more intentional and situational in place.
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