Elephants Too Strong Against Stone Walls

[Radiotraining]

13 minutes ago, Dasaavawar said:

Elephants are too OP. Everytime I play with a friend and this guy introduces like 40 Elephants in the battlefield, I know I'm already defeated.

They should be more expensive in at least in terms of food (from 4 to 5 times the cost of horses, around 600 to 800 of food) and require more population available (and probably a lot of others things).

 

I agree a lot with this.

Is one of the things that make the late game a bit boring, to be honest. It makes you feel you're playing "world of tanks" instead of ancient warfare and is immediately game over. Also I feel like these features kill a bit the creativity in the gameplay, because is kind of a shortcut to victory.

Ideally elephants should be regarded as support unit to the bulk of an army and not viceversa, so economic restriction or pop cost could definitely play a role here.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Radiotraining

[LetswaveaBook]

1 hour ago, Dasaavawar said:

Elephants are too OP. Everytime I play with a friend and this guy introduces like 40 Elephants in the battlefield, I know I'm already defeated.

The asian elephants cost around 550 resources and are 6.5 times as durable against pierce damage as a CS pikeman. I don't think that they are hugely problematic.

40 Elephants is no small force. I assume it is more the size of the army that trouble you rather than the units. There are other strong options available and probably your friend would be as difficult to beat if he used different (champion) units.

[alre]

1 hour ago, LetswaveaBook said:

probably your friend would be as difficult to beat if he used different (champion) units.

probably more.

[Dasaavawar]

From my last battle:

Me (Romans) vs Him (Carthaginians).

(Punic wars!)

(My fav civ is Carthaginians, but we were playing on random selection).

Map: one of those Oasis maps (flat terrain, plenty of metal).

(In the western front):

I remember having like 70 champion cavalry, 12 priests, 6 battery rams and some basic infantry in this front (around 30 javelineers and 20 basic swordsmen). (I had many both defense and attack upgrades at the blacksmith). I tried to capture his fortress that was close to 2 defense towers. Then around 40 of his elephants come (along with around 10 javelineers, I guess), they surround my horses and kill them in less than 2 minutes. (They also crushed the rest of units as if they were flies). I was capable to kill just like 6 elephants, nothing else.

Carthaginians War Elephants:

Cost: 270 food. 180 metal. And requires just 3 of population available... (But it surely requires at least 20 javelineers to effectively kill just 1 elephant).

Compare this with some of my Roman units:

Roman basic swordsman: 50 food, 40 wood, 10 metal, 1 population available.

Roman Skirmisher: 50 food, 50 wood, 1 population available. 

Roman elite infantry: 80 food, 60 wood, 80 metal, 1 population available.

Roman Champion cavalry: 150 food, 80 wood, 100 metal, 1 population available.

Consider for example that you need 600 food to unlock champion cavalry. Elephants have no requirements other than their stables (That are neither too expensive compared with horse stables). You could use that food in training 2 elephants. That is significantly more useful than training 4 champion cavalry or 7 elite infantry.

If you play with infantry based civilizations, and you see 15 elephants coming, then you have no chance to stand against them... 

Elephants are like heavily armored and faster battery rams capable to kill your soldiers with few attacks and in matter of seconds. (They require balancing).

Edited October 8, 2021 by Dasaavawar

[alre]

you managed to get your cavalry circled by elephants? it's like turles outmanouvring rabbits. Seriously though, I don't think this is a fight you'd think elephants should lose, in general.

Elephants are nicely countered by ranged troops, more so than the equivalent resource value in champion infantry, for instance. Since in MP games you generally see a lot of ranged troops (especially OP javeliners), competitive player almost never use elephants in this last alpha. I guess eles could be nerfed, but ranged troops should be nerfed first.

Edited October 8, 2021 by alre

[LetswaveaBook]

1 hour ago, Dasaavawar said:

I tried to capture his fortress that was close to 2 defense towers.

That seems like a mistake, especially if the fortress is garrisoned.

1 hour ago, Dasaavawar said:

I remember having like 70 champion cavalry,

That is a good ammount of champion cavalry. The issue probably is that you did not use them very well. They might lose to elephants one-on-one, but they have several other advantages. They can run around the opposing base and try to kill all vulnerable units that you see or capture building. 70 champion cavalry could fairly quickly be able to capture fully garrisoned towers even.  What you need to avoid is to attack the elephants head on. If the opponent attacks with the elephants, you should use the cavalry to take out the supporting units. If the elephants are alone, you could defeat them.

Could you share the replay on the forum?

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

24 minutes ago, alre said:

you managed to get your cavalry circled by elephants? it's like turles outmanouvring rabbits. Seriously though, I don't think this is a fight you'd think elephants should lose, in general.

Elephants are nicely countered by ranged troops, less so than the equivalent resource value in champion infantry, for instance. Since in MP games you generally see a lot of ranged troops (especially OP javeliners), competitive player almost never use elephants in this last alpha. I guess eles could be nerfed, but ranged troops should be nerfed first.

alre, the main drawback to eles is that they usually come from archer civs. One of the strongest ele civs this alpha is seleucids because eles can back an army that is already strong in dps. Even if all their skirms are shooting your eles, your skirms/melee will be killing their skirms. Also, if you have metal left over, it is easy to keep making eles since all they require is food and metal.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

1 hour ago, Dasaavawar said:

Then around 40 of his elephants

what a mad lad! thats a lot of eles @Dizaka

[alre]

10 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

alre, the main drawback to eles is that they usually come from archer civs. One of the strongest ele civs this alpha is seleucids because eles can back an army that is already strong in dps. Even if all their skirms are shooting your eles, your skirms/melee will be killing their skirms. Also, if you have metal left over, it is easy to keep making eles since all they require is food and metal.

you don't say. eles are not particularly good meatshields. if you have the right spare resources everything is easy to produce.

btw carth and ptol are both ele civs and very popular in this alpha, as well as sele as you said.

Edited October 8, 2021 by alre

[Dasaavawar]

I don't think I should have won that battle. My point is more about concerning how cheap it's to train Elephants compared with other units and all they have to offer.

And how they should be more limited in their population.

Food: Wild African Elephants consume around 300 lbs of food each day (150kg). Compare this with the average ration for domestic horses of around 20 lbs each day (10 kg). Does it means Elephants should require 15 times of the amount of cavalry's food to be trained? Well no, but they surely should require significantly more than just twice of that amount. 

Population available: By requiring more of it, it means for your faction (or enemy faction) to simply build more houses or just get used to fewer elephants.

(Probably they should be more expensive in terms of both wood and metal too, only having a bonus for civilizations that are in disadvantage and used them in large proportions like Mauryans).

(That would have reduced at least half of his Elephants army and would have granted me a more balanced battle or chance).

Edited October 9, 2021 by Dasaavawar

[Lion.Kanzen]

10 hours ago, Dasaavawar said:

means Elephants should require 15 times of the amount of cavalry's food to be trained?

interesting idea. Historically it is impossible to have so many elephants. At least in proportion.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Could add a rolling cost multiplier (better name, please) to the game, per unit/structure (similar to farming and construction diminishing returns). So, every War Elephant you queue up costs more than the last. Could be linear, could be exponential, or a compound percentage (however you want to look at it or do it). Fewer elephants trained/queued, the less expensive they are; the more elephants trained/queued, the more expensive they are. Could give a slightly lower cost multiplier to historically "Elephant Civs" like Carthage and Maurya as a civ bonus or give them a tech for it. 

Right now this is possible with auras (Delenda Est does this for Cult Statues, for instance), but using auras there's a flaw that it doesn't affect items in the queue (for units) or that are unbuilt (for structures), so I have to limit the Statues to one at a time, which is awkward. A cost multiplier feature for the cost component could fix that up nicely and give more capabilities for balancing.

[Dakara]

Just add traps, stakes, etc. for the elephants to kill themselves

[faction02]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Could add a rolling cost multiplier (better name, please) to the game, per unit/structure (similar to farming and construction diminishing returns). So, every War Elephant you queue up costs more than the last. Could be linear, could be exponential, or a compound percentage (however you want to look at it or do it). Fewer elephants trained/queued, the less expensive they are; the more elephants trained/queued, the more expensive they are. Could give a slightly lower cost multiplier to historically "Elephant Civs" like Carthage and Maurya as a civ bonus or give them a tech for it. 

Right now this is possible with auras (Delenda Est does this for Cult Statues, for instance), but using auras there's a flaw that it doesn't affect items in the queue (for units) or that are unbuilt (for structures), so I have to limit the Statues to one at a time, which is awkward. A cost multiplier feature for the cost component could fix that up nicely and give more capabilities for balancing.

This sounds like a game feature which would limit the number of elephants trained in a game rather than the number of elephants used at the same time on a map, no?

 

Just throwing an idea here, but would it make sense that the cost of mercenary increases with the number of mercenary trained but it would return slowly to its initial cost as time goes (if that's possible?)?  

Mercenary could be designed to be quite strong for their initial cost, but as their cost raise when more are trained, they would tend to get expensive for their strength. One should then wait for their cost to slowly reduce before training more mercenaries of that type.

The interest of that feature is that it should encourage using all types of mercenaries/building all types of embassy rather than just cavalry which seems an issue currently.

[alre]

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Could add a rolling cost multiplier (better name, please) to the game, per unit/structure (similar to farming and construction diminishing returns). So, every War Elephant you queue up costs more than the last. Could be linear, could be exponential, or a compound percentage (however you want to look at it or do it). Fewer elephants trained/queued, the less expensive they are; the more elephants trained/queued, the more expensive they are. Could give a slightly lower cost multiplier to historically "Elephant Civs" like Carthage and Maurya as a civ bonus or give them a tech for it. 

Right now this is possible with auras (Delenda Est does this for Cult Statues, for instance), but using auras there's a flaw that it doesn't affect items in the queue (for units) or that are unbuilt (for structures), so I have to limit the Statues to one at a time, which is awkward. A cost multiplier feature for the cost component could fix that up nicely and give more capabilities for balancing.

if that was to be added, I'd make it for all champions. sele for example have access to pike champions, who are much more effective meatshields than eles (spear champions are too, although I must reconsider: eles are also quite good meatshields). massing champions has been an issue in this alpha.

I wouldn't think that massing mercs has been an issue in itself, because sword cav is usually massed by gaul players too. it's just that sword cav is OP, and that mercs are too strong for their price.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

4 hours ago, alre said:

if that was to be added, I'd make it for all champions. sele for example have access to pike champions, who are much more effective meatshields than eles (spear champions are too, although I must reconsider: eles are also quite good meatshields). massing champions has been an issue in this alpha.

I wouldn't think that massing mercs has been an issue in itself, because sword cav is usually massed by gaul players too. it's just that sword cav is OP, and that mercs are too strong for their price.

I agree that it is too easy to mass champions. I think they should be added with no unlock to fortresses and the unlock for stable/ barrack should cost a lot more food some wood and metal. This way, it would be harder to plan to mass champions as you may have to forego some back-up eco, some military upgrades, or some time. By then an enemy could have killed you with other units. Adding them with no unlock from the fortress would help players to train a few and use them wisely rather than massing and killing everything.
 

Implementing some way to train rank 2/3 units in p3 (at increased food/wood for rank 2 and +10 further metal for rank 3) for different civs/units should also help bridge the gap between CS and champion units. 

Attack-ground should also help reduce the over-importance of meat shielding.

Edited October 9, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[faction02]

  

4 hours ago, alre said:

I wouldn't think that massing mercs has been an issue in itself, because sword cav is usually massed by gaul players too. it's just that sword cav is OP, and that mercs are too strong for their price.

My suggestion wasn't aimed at balancing sword cav mercenary nor prevent massing of mercenary but rather an incentive to use more variety in the type of mercenary used.   

If the more mercenary gallic cavalry you make, the more expensive they become, and you apply the same to Iberian mercenary cavalry separately. Building your army of swordmen cavalry would be cheaper if you mix both types rather than use only one of them. Once you have build both embassy, you would also have the incentive to produce the infantry from each embassy since the first few infantry mercenary trained are strong for their cost. The ideal result would be an incentive to have a mix of both citizen and mercenaries but also some incentives to use infantry mercenary which feels less interesting in the current stage of the game.

It sounds more natural to apply changes in training cost to mercenaries than to champions, it would reflect the idea that the more you try to use mercenary, the stepper their price become. Kind if a supply-demand on a labour market logic.

 

 

[Dasaavawar]

On 09/10/2021 at 1:16 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Could add a rolling cost multiplier (better name, please) to the game, per unit/structure (similar to farming and construction diminishing returns)

In addition to the other things stated. I have to admit I like the way how they are limited in the Delenda Est mod.

I remember playing with the Epirotes at A25 last time.

Population restriction: It requires to build a fortress to get space enough for training 5 Elephants.

Additional; There should be an upper limit to the number of elephants you can train. Maybe 15 per civic center (or another digit multiple of 5 closer to this number). (This would include Elephant heroes too). (This number could be different for each civilization (up to 25 for Mauryans)).

In the case of Seleucids and Ptolemies; building a military colony would also increase your room for training Elephants by 5. But this wouldn't interfere with the maximum number of possible Elephants strictly determined by the number of civic centers you have built. Or, if you prefer, it could additionally increase the maximum number just by 5. (Not as much as a civic center). (This would make military colonies to be a mix both of fortresses and civic centers, at least when it comes to Elephants mechanics). (This could be applied to Mauryan palaces too).

Training time: Since Elephants have a lifespan similar to humans and it takes them like 15 years to reach adulthood. (It's like 5 years for horses). They should increase their training time too. Something from 45 secs to 60 secs. (without bonuses). (Let's ignore that it takes 20 years for humans to reach adulthood aswell).

 

And of course, the main reason why this topic was created:

Elephants still need to be less effective than artillery and siege weapons... (Right now, if you play with a civilization that has Elephants, you basically have no reason to build any siege weapon).

Maybe make them slower and less harmful (at least against buildings and walls) in each of their attacks?

Edited October 10, 2021 by Dasaavawar

[alre]

elephants are fine. 

[Freagarach]

9 hours ago, alre said:

elephants are fine. 

Fine... Fine... We could add a lot more depth, if you ask me.

[Lion.Kanzen]

32 minutes ago, Freagarach said:

Fine... Fine... We could add a lot more depth, if you ask me.

Yes please.

[davidsrsb]

Having all units require food resources if more than a certain radius from their civic centre, to be supplied by something like the trader unit, would restrict big elephant army attacks. Fail to supply and the health goes down. This is realistic, historic armies had problems with logistics.

[Ceres]

Interesting. Would you purpose this not only for elephants?

@Stan`h

@Freagarach

Would this be programmatically possible? Would the game remain playable?

Maybe we need a separate thread, though, for the topic on "supplies".

Edited October 13, 2021 by Ceres

[Freagarach]

8 minutes ago, Ceres said:

Maybe we need a separate thread, though, for the topic on "supplies".

You probably can find it somewhere already.

9 minutes ago, Ceres said:

Would this be programmatically possible?

,,A programmer's work is merely limited by their imagination.'' It just takes time. ^^

9 minutes ago, Ceres said:

Would the game remain playable?

I guess it depends on whom you ask. If you ask me, it becomes more fun, if you would ask some random competative player they might argue otherwise.

[Ceres]

Well, I find @davidsrsb's idea really nice. Any would not restrict it to elephants. Maybe some kind of supply wagons as a new unit would be interesting, but I don't know how accurate this would be for different civs.

@wowgetoffyourcellphoney

@Yekaterina

@maroder

@wraitii

(sorry, there editor does not work nicely on mobile browsers when inserting @<username>)