Fixing Chinese Han

[real_tabasco_sauce]

fields have a footprint of 28 and a obstruction of 22, while rice paddies have a footprint of 22 and an obstruction of 20.

Because of this, I have seen complains that the Han rice paddies are difficult to place, and this is true because their effective size is only slightly smaller than farms (22 versus 20). I suggest lowering the obstruction value for rice paddies to 18.

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Because of this, I have seen complains that the Han rice paddies are difficult to place, and this is true because their effective size is only slightly smaller than farms (22 versus 20). I suggest lowering the obstruction value for rice paddies to 18.

Agree. I find the rice paddies super annoying

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Another suggestion for Han:

"Will to fight" is separated for Han, with a ranged version of the upgrade and a melee version, each with about half of the regular resource costs.

Because the vast majority of general damage in the game is done by ranged units, the ranged version of will to fight is better than the melee one, and consequently better than the general "will to fight" that all other civs have.

Those upgrades need to be either adjusted or merged into the standard "will to fight"

 

[chrstgtr]

21 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Another suggestion for Han:

"Will to fight" is separated for Han, with a ranged version of the upgrade and a melee version, each with about half of the regular resource costs.

Because the vast majority of general damage in the game is done by ranged units, the ranged version of will to fight is better than the melee one, and consequently better than the general "will to fight" that all other civs have.

Those upgrades need to be either adjusted or merged into the standard "will to fight"

 

Good point. I kind of like the uniqueness of it. But it makes it easier to concentrate your army focus. I would suggest keeping separate, but raising the cost of each. 

[Dizaka]

50 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Another suggestion for Han:

"Will to fight" is separated for Han, with a ranged version of the upgrade and a melee version, each with about half of the regular resource costs.

Because the vast majority of general damage in the game is done by ranged units, the ranged version of will to fight is better than the melee one, and consequently better than the general "will to fight" that all other civs have.

Those upgrades need to be either adjusted or merged into the standard "will to fight"

 

 

27 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Good point. I kind of like the uniqueness of it. But it makes it easier to concentrate your army focus. I would suggest keeping separate, but raising the cost of each. 

 

 

Proposal:  Change the costs around.

Make ranged one cost:  Stone/Metal (or Metal/Wood)

Make melee one cost:  Food/Wood (or Food/Wood/Stone)

Ranged needs to cost metal.  I'm fine with them being split.  With it costing metal it is about similar to "obtain difficulty" of WTF.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Dizaka

[alre]

making will to fight the same as blacksmith upgrades doesn't seem that unique to me

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 hours ago, alre said:

making will to fight the same as blacksmith upgrades doesn't seem that unique to me

Be more specific? Just curious wym.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@alre I hope I can clarify:

We are only comparing Han's Will-to-fight with other civs Will-to-fight. Hans is simply superior. I know that everyone would prefer to keep unique aspects of the civ, but the options are adjust/rebalance the upgrades, or revert to standard will-to-fight.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Can add +20% cost to the ranged tech and see how that feels. 

[Dizaka]

4 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@alre I hope I can clarify:

We are only comparing Han's Will-to-fight with other civs Will-to-fight. Hans is simply superior. I know that everyone would prefer to keep unique aspects of the civ, but the options are adjust/rebalance the upgrades, or revert to standard will-to-fight.

I think you can keep the uniqueness by just switching the costs around.

The most valuable damage IG is ranged damage.  Make ranged cost metal+1 other instead of just wood/food.  Change the cost of melee from metal+1other to wood/food.  Keeps uniqueness and makes it more fair, imo.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I guess the value of melee damage versus ranged damage is its own problem, and that this is partially a symptom of that.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Many players are concerned about Han being OP, here are a few remaining hot points about the civ. I know some have been brought up before but this is kind of written based on how it is playing comm mod in the lobby right now (Jan 8, 2022).

• cs xbows: best sniping unit, easy to mass (perhaps put cs xbow in p2 in barracks, maybe change cost to 50 f 40 w 10 m)
• crossbow training tech: combined with other production speed bonuses, its too fast (change to something else)
• 220 pop is a lot for a civ that has such powerful citizen units  (remove this depending on severity of xbow nerfs)
• cc upgrade is currently too strong (I suggest removing or decreasing hp boost and leaving arrows unchanged)
• divided and cheaper will to fight (tweak cost as was discussed earlier)

potential buffs to improve gameplay in certain areas:

• come up with team bonus
• fix rice paddy physical size
• improve ministers usefulness and gameplay role with focus on situational use or opportunity cost
• champion building cheaper or maybe faster production rate (I haven't looked much into this, just heard from some player that its not easy to go champs as han)

Tell me what you think! I hope this sort of summarizes Han gameplay issues and some possibilities for changes.

[chrstgtr]

40 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

• cs xbows: best sniping unit, easy to mass (perhaps put cs xbow in p2 in barracks, maybe change cost to 50 f 40 w 10 m)

Why not decrease the range? I agree crossbows are very good at sniping, but they're pretty bad otherwise. They are very weak against melee in straight up fights, move slowly, and have lower dps than javs/slings. Decreasing range slightly would mean that sniping is less effective because units won't be able to just stand in one place and won't be able to (as effectively) out range other units. Decreasing range also won't greatly harm the players that don't micro (i.e., it won't make an otherwise weak (no-sniping) unit worse). 

55 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

• 220 pop is a lot for a civ that has such powerful citizen units  (remove this depending on severity of xbow nerfs)

China feels like a civ that should have a lot of pop. I would rather get crossbow sniping problem fixed than take away the pop bonus. Also, as I previously said, crossbows are only actually good when used for sniping, so a pop nerf would hurt the non-sniping players.

I otherwise mostly agree with your analysis.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

10 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Many players are concerned about Han being OP, here are a few remaining hot points about the civ. I know some have been brought up before but this is kind of written based on how it is playing comm mod in the lobby right now (Jan 8, 2022).

• cs xbows: best sniping unit, easy to mass (perhaps put cs xbow in p2 in barracks, maybe change cost to 50 f 40 w 10 m)
• crossbow training tech: combined with other production speed bonuses, its too fast (change to something else)
• 220 pop is a lot for a civ that has such powerful citizen units  (remove this depending on severity of xbow nerfs)
• cc upgrade is currently too strong (I suggest removing or decreasing hp boost and leaving arrows unchanged)
• divided and cheaper will to fight (tweak cost as was discussed earlier)

potential buffs to improve gameplay in certain areas:

• come up with team bonus
• fix rice paddy physical size
• improve ministers usefulness and gameplay role with focus on situational use or opportunity cost
• champion building cheaper or maybe faster production rate (I haven't looked much into this, just heard from some player that its not easy to go champs as han)

Tell me what you think! I hope this sort of summarizes Han gameplay issues and some possibilities for changes.

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4875

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4874

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4873

I have nothing for crossbows yet. I think their prepare time should be increased. This is because for the first 3.6 seconds (.6 sec prepare time + reload of 3 sec) of a fight they do 28+28 pierce = 56 pierce or close to 19 DPS which is very high compared to skirmishers.

making prepare time 1000 ms would reduce this value to 14 which is more reasonable. Sniping would still be effective here (not OP), and this would only be further resolved by my plans to address the meat shield meta in the community mod.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Those sound like great solutions. reducing pop from 220 to 200 would not be a great way to nerf the civ considering there are only mauryans and persians that get that bonus besides Han. I was basically just trying to summarize the problems, causes, and options and I definitely think the options you guys brought up are top contenders.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Millet fields @AIEND

[Genava55]

(the pictures come from facebook, so expect the url to die at some point)

https://www.facebook.com/ginkgostory/posts/pfbid02howTG2dy7vxSJR3TgJ1H5QX5uMz2yFihGy5EaXepXfVUjcG6pNrR764V664AZLTl

[Lopess]

(Nanman auxiliar would be a good choice for the  mercenary in Delenda Est)

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

 

[borg-]

Crossbow is easy to learn, just remove rank 2/3, i think Its the right way to balance.

[borg-]

Let me be more specific. The longbow has advantages against the crossbow in several aspects, greater range, greater impact, shorter firing time, the only advantage of the crossbow is that anyone with mediocre training could be able to deal some damage, therefore being strong level 1 as are, and then losing strength over the course of the game, so removing rank 2/3 looks good.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, borg- said:

Let me be more specific. The longbow has advantages against the crossbow in several aspects, greater range, greater impact, shorter firing time, the only advantage of the crossbow is that anyone with mediocre training could be able to deal some damage, therefore being strong level 1 as are, and then losing strength over the course of the game, so removing rank 2/3 looks good.

I like this.

[Stan`]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I like this.

I miss the war dogs with chainmail ^^"

[d34d svn]

On 07/03/2022 at 1:19 AM, Genava55 said:

https://www.facebook.com/ginkgostory

(by the way the pictures below come from facebook, so expect the urls to die at some point)

ZHANG JUE (张角)

Zhang Jue was the leader of the Yellow Turban Rebellion during the late Han dynasty of China. He was said to be a follower of Taoism and a sorcerer. Giving himself the title of "Great Teacher", Zhang Jue led the Yellow Turban Rebellion in a campaign called the "Way of Heaven", to rebelled against the Han dynasty in response to burdensome taxes, rampant corruption, and famine. After the rebellion's defeat, most of them eventually joining the army of the warlord Cao Cao.

东汉末年农民起义军“黄巾军”的领袖。张角修太平道，利用其中的某些宗教观念和社会政治思想，组织群众，约于灵帝建宁（168年-172年）初传道。中平元年（184年），张角以“苍天已死，黄天当立，岁在甲子，天下大吉”为口号，自称“天公将军”，率领群众发动起义，史称“黄巾起义”。不久张角病死，起义军也很快被汉朝所镇压。

 

ZHUGE LIANG (諸葛亮)

Zhuge Liang (181–234 A.D) was a politician, military strategist, writer, engineer and inventor. He served as the chancellor and regent of the state of Shu Han during the Three Kingdoms period. He is recognized as the most accomplished strategist of his era.

诸葛亮 (181年－234年10月8日)，三国蜀汉丞相，是中国历史上著名的政治家、军事家、发明家、及散文家。刘备三顾始见之，为备画据荆益、联孙权、拒曹操之策，佐备取荆州，定益州，遂与魏、吴成鼎足之势。曹丕代汉，备称帝于成都，以亮为丞相。备死，亮辅后主刘禅，以丞相封武乡侯，兼领益州牧。整官制，修法度，志复中原。屡次北伐，与魏相攻战。建兴十二年卒于五丈原军中，年五十四，谥为忠武侯

 

THREE KINGDOMS - MARCH OF THE SHU ARMY

This drawing depicting the fifth march of the Shu army (蜀汉) across Qin Ling mountain range to attack Wei(魏), during the late Three Kingdoms period (234 A.D). I am always fascinated by the realistic and humble narration style of the classic 'Records of the Three Kingdoms'(三国志), and inspired to create this drawing. I hope you enjoy it, thanks!

画作.三国蜀军五出祁山之想象图

今次的画作题材为三国后期蜀汉军队在诸葛亮的指挥下，第五次进攻关中时穿越秦岭斜谷的情景。我一向都比较喜欢古典三国志里相对写实朴素的述事风格，籍同样的方向来制作这次的画作。希望能够以一种平静的心情来三国。谢谢~

 

画作.秦国步兵写家书之想象图

今次的作画题材为一队正在写家书的秦国步兵。他们是战国晚期来自同一个村庄的壮丁, 一起被调到遥远的前线作战。为首的伍长是唯一识字的人, 其他队员就委托他为他们的家人写信。这幅画作的灵感来自于云梦睡虎地出土的秦简家书。当然主角并不是其中的黑夫和惊, 而是其他数以万计消失在历史中, 想念家人的秦兵。

在我的Youtube视频上观看此画作的幕后制作过程：https://youtu.be/aTJSM336h3Y

Terracotta Warriors (Qin Infantry) Writing Family Letters

This drawing depict a group of Qin dynasty infantry writing letters to their families at the frontline. The backdrop is set to be the battle against Chu rebellion around the year 223 B.C. The inspiration is coming from a Qin dynasty family letter (Shui Hu Di Qin Jian) discovered in 1975.

To see behind the scene and workflow video of this drawing, please visit my Youtube channel:

https://youtu.be/aTJSM336h3Y

 

东汉武士格斗之想象图

公元25年, 刘秀在河北称帝, 建立东汉政权, 开始对新朝末年在中原各地建立的自立政权发动统一战争。在长达12年席卷全中原的战争期间, 又有哪些可歌可泣的故事呢? 图为陇西之战时, 刘秀与隗纯的部队正在激战。今次想探索一下东汉时期的一些兵器。左边留大胡子的大叔手执手戟与盾牌, 右边的大兄则以环首刀与钩镶对应。

Close combat scene of Eastern Han's warriors

Liu Xiu (Emperor Guang Wu) started his campaign to re-uniting China again after established Eastern Han dynasty in 25 A.D. Liu Xiu's troop spent 12 years to conquer other warloard across China. This illustration depicting a close combat scene between Liu Xiu and Kui Chun's troop. The warrior on the left equipped with a Shou Ji (手戟: short halberd) and a wooden shield, his opponent is countering with Huan Shou Dao (环首刀: rounded head blade) and a Gou Rang (钩镶: a type of buckler with hooks)

 

Xia Hou Dun ( 夏侯惇 )

Chief military commander of the Wei army. The most trusted general of Cao cao. He lost his left eye to a strafe arrow during the battle against Lü Bu. Since then, he has obtained the alias "Blind Xia Hou". He is holding a golden axe, a symbol of higest military authority.

 

Xian Zhen Ying 陷阵营 (Formation Destroyer Unit)

Lü Bu's strongest heavy infantry unit, their commander is the legendary general Gao Shun (高顺). This unit is well equipped and very discipline, they are feared by many other warlord at that time, including Liu Bei and Cao Cao. The number of soldier is always around 700 people, but their combat ability is equivalent to a thousand strong. The warrior in this picture equipped a unique buckler call Gou Rang (钩镶). It has two hooks on the top and bottom, to parry halberd.

 

Wu Dang Fei Jun 無當飛軍 (Unstoppable Flying Army)

Under Zhuge Lliang's order, a special unit recruited from the minority tribe of the southern china. This troop consist the minority tribe of Southern Tribe (南中夷族) and Blue Qiang Tribe (青羌族), specialized in mountain warfare. They are mostly using bow and poison arrow in the battle. In the battle of Zhong Men Dao, they ambush and kill Wei kingdom famous general Zhang He (张郃).

無當飛軍

诸葛亮在南中平定战后徵召的少数民族战士，善长山地作战。在第四次北伐时，于木门道伏击并射杀魏国大将张郃。

 

Tai Shi Xi (太史慈)

A very brave general of Sun Wu kingdom. In a reconnaissance mission, Tai Shi Xi encountered and challege Sun Ce (孙策) alone, his courage had impressed Sun Ce. He eventually being invited by Sun Ce to join his camp and became one of the most important general of Sun Wu. He is most famous for his outstanding archery skill.

太史慈

孙吴大将。 猿臂善射，弦不虚发

 

 

Xian Deng Si Shi 先登死士 (Spearhead Suicide Squad)

Yuan Shao's special crossbowman unit, equipped with big shield and powerful crossbow. In the battle of Jie Qiao, Yuan Shao sent in 800 infantry and thousands of crossbowman as a suicide squad against Gong Sunzhan's light cavalry. They hide behind the big shield and wait until the enemy get close, and destroyed their enemy by firing their crossbow at once.

先登死士

袁袑的敢死队，装备大盾与强弩。在界桥之战全灭公孙瓒的轻骑兵部队。

Stick to the current timeframe! Do not deviate from it! 

I prefer the team stay focus on Western Han era instead of Eastern Han/Three Kingdoms era.

[LienRag]

A remark : wouldn't it be possible to have the rice paddy buildable only near a water source (or another rice paddy with access to a water source) and have millet fields with lower production value buildable where irrigation isn't available ?

It would make the placement of paddy fields more strategic, as if you put all on a line depending on one of them having access to water, the enemy destroying this watery one will make are your fields unusable (this should be made clear to the player, by the way : all the workers on the dried field putting their food in the granary/town center and becoming idle).