Fixing Chinese Han

[alre]

55 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Another idea: give champion cavalry crossbowmen penetration ability?

bonus against higher tier units? cool

Edited February 21, 2022 by alre

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

I made it identical to slingers. But, in practice range you can train tier 3 crossbowmen by default!! 

Explain.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Which units are Phase 1 is not set in stone. If there is a better combo, then we can go with that.

Crossbows we should make trash/rapid response defense force or something similar with stats to match. The game's first official trash unit. Suggest stats to make this happen.

Practice Range, I'm pretty sure me and a certain someone on the team wants to keep them, so we have to make them work. I propose inverting their cost from the Barracks, so they are only 100 wood and 200 stone (as opposed to the barracks at 200 stone and 100 wood). That way it is affordable with the first 300 stone on standard resource settings. Making crossbows trash and massable in Phase 1 could make the Practice Range worth it.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Yekaterina I was confused, I thought that the Han crossbows were already the way you had them.

If they still have large damage in one shot, they could hit and run during p1, but would be vulnerable to cavalry.

I have always wanted more units like skiritai in their cost/power amount so I have no qualms with rank 3 being trained from a building, it would make up for that building being specialized and not so useful for eco.

[Yekaterina]

37 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Explain.

Units have rank basic (infantry_archer_b), advanced (infantry_archer_a) and elite (infantry_archer_e).

Advanced and elite ranked units have greater health, armour and capture attack, but there is no increase in raw dps output. Citizen-soldiers start at basic rank when trained from barracks, and as they fight enemies (hurting the enemies), they gain exp points. After an unit has stored a certain amount of exp points they can be ranked up to the next tier. 

Mercenaries start at rank 2 and require less exp points to go to rank 3, so they are OP. 

If we can train rank 3 (elite units by default), that means you can have a very durable army in no time. 

For a comparison, rank 3 archers have 78 health compared to 50 health of rank 1 archers. 

[Yekaterina]

35 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I propose inverting their cost from the Barracks, so they are only 100 wood and 200 stone

oh no, I need 3 barracks to boom! Can't afford too much stone consumption early on. 

 

36 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Making crossbows trash and massable in Phase 1 could make the Practice Range worth it.

My idea was use crossbows as slinger/javelin alternative. 

26 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I was confused, I thought that the Han crossbows were already the way you had them.

Please see my mod:

[Yekaterina]

han-china.zip

This mod contains my proposed changed and fixes. Feature changes:

1. Fields have 5 women on them working at normal rates, but they are smaller. 

2. Crossbow stats: 6.7 pierce per 750ms at 50 m. (almost identical dps to slingers, can be beaten by skirmishers at point blank range but beats all other ranged infantry from 60m starting range). They will be your main ranged damage output for late game. 

3. Starting unit is a sword cav and cc trains sword cav. (for civ differentiation)

4. Barracks trains melee and ranged infantry as normal

5. Practice range trains only elite archers and elite crossbowman. Offers ranged unit techs that are not available elsewhere. 

 

Bug changes:

CC size re-adjusted. Previously the CC had a large empty area around it that did not allow me to build on. Now I removed it, so that building size is honest. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

But, in practice range you can train tier 3 crossbowmen by default!!

I love it. Another tier 3 unit available like skiri sounds great. I think a couple other civs deserve tier 3 units. However, should the price be adjusted if they are as strong as skiri at tier 3? Also, should both archers and crossbows really be trainable at tier 3? sounds pretty OP.

Edited February 21, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Yekaterina]

2 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

strong as skiri at tier 3? 

ranged units only get health bonus and capture bonus, so no need. They already take 7 more seconds to train than rank 1. 

 

If you add in melee then they definitely need an increase in cost. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

ranged units only get health bonus and capture bonus, so no need. They already take 7 more seconds to train than rank 1. 

Ok, that makes sense. So then is there a building limit for practice ranges? It seems to me like building several of these would be OP late game, considering the units price. Think of ppl building several stables to spam champ cav, but instead the units are much, much cheaper.

Edited February 21, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

4 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

ranged units only get health bonus and capture bonus, so no need. They already take 7 more seconds to train than rank 1. 

I thought accuracy also? or maybe i'm wrong.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

52 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

oh no, I need 3 barracks to boom! Can't afford too much stone consumption early on

well this way there would be some trade-offs: do you want to commit to boom? then make all the barracks you want. You could still have 1 barracks 1 cc and one archery range. Keep in mind Rauls is able to boom extremely fast with just one barracks until p2.

I like the 200 stone 100 wood cost idea from @wowgetoffyourcellphone.  It has similar stone usage strategy options as introducing 150 stone cost kush eco temples in p1.

[Yekaterina]

16 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Rauls is able to boom extremely fast with just one barracks until p2.

Ptolemies + extra berries doesn't count. I can reach P3 + 200 pop before him using my build order, although he will have a larger eco score 

20 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

It has similar stone usage strategy options as introducing 150 stone cost kush eco temples in p1.

I am not doing that lol

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

Bug changes:

CC size re-adjusted. Previously the CC had a large empty area around it that did not allow me to build on. Now I removed it, so that building size is honest. 

 the CC has an upgrade that allows it to change its size.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

12 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

I am not doing that lol

what do you mean? that 200 stone is too much for a building that does not give back much eco? or that you are not involved with kushite pyramids?

 

14 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Ptolemies + extra berries doesn't count. I can reach P3 + 200 pop before him using my build order, although he will have a larger eco score 

He does it with whatever civ and in whatever situation. I admit, he could use a second barracks earlier than 8 mins in a lot of situations. My main point was that Rauls is able to use 1 barracks to grow pop as fast as other good players use 2 or 3.

Also, what is the current cost of the archery range?

[Yekaterina]

1 minute ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Also, what is the current cost of the archery range?

200 wood

I build pyramids very late, only if I need to spam cav. I only remember 2 or  3 games where this has happened. 

2 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

1 barracks to grow pop as fast as other good players use 2 or 3.

2 or 3 barracks will definitely make you boom a lot faster if your eco can follow it. Most players don't have a strong enough eco to support production at that rate, so it would make Rauls seem very fast. Also he likes to use huge batches or 15 women which makes his population counter jump very fast, but the actual time when his 200 units are out and about is a lot longer compared to someone with 4 barracks. Anyways, we can have P1 archery range that costs 200 stone but I won't ever use it...

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Well, balancing a civ isn't just about ensuring your personal build order remains successful. If others can successfully use a p1 practice range, then that's a plus for the civ.

[Yekaterina]

43 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Well, balancing a civ isn't just about ensuring your personal build order remains successful. If others can successfully use a p1 practice range, then that's a plus for the civ

We can add it in to see what happens, although I think the default barracks is absolutely necessary. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

I'm thinking some units could be trained in the barracks.

If we implement archery range for all factions.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

5 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

Ptolemies + extra berries doesn't count. I can reach P3 + 200 pop before him using my build order, although he will have a larger eco score 

How many women then?

Anyways @Yekaterina, so if i'm understanding this correctly, practice range is now a p1 building, costs 200 wood (50 more than a house), and trains rank 3 units in p2 at no additional cost other than train time?

You think this is balanced??

I think for this to be balanced, it must cost more stone. This way at least you cant make like 5 practice ranges, go p2 at 6 mins and immediately win. In addition, it requires late game stone eco, which people are often quick to abandon in favor of metal eco.

In other words, I like @wowgetoffyourcellphone's cost of 100 wood, 200 stone which now makes it 3 in favor.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I'm thinking some units could be trained in the barracks.

If we implement archery range for all factions.

Yes if all civs got the archery range, we would need appropriate units for them. It would need an established role which would be the same in all civs, ie gameplay "framework."

If it remains a Han unique building, I think it still needs to have a specific role. Is it for massing trash units? or for accessing more powerful ones like tier 3 units?

Maybe it can be both:

costs: 100 wood, 200 stone.

P1: can train both archers and crossbows at tier 1 (normal citizen soldiers)

P2: upgrade becomes available called "crossbow regiments" or something:

• Allows tier 3 crossbows to train with much slower train time, or cost if train time is not enough.
• archers remain a normal citizen soldier.

I don't think both archers AND crossbows should become tier 3. Since CS crossbows are the unique han unit, only they should have this option. Imagine if we allowed spartan skirms to train tier 3.

Edited February 22, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Yekaterina]

10 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

How many women then?

Anyways @Yekaterina, so if i'm understanding this correctly, practice range is now a p1 building, costs 200 wood (50 more than a house), and trains rank 3 units in p2 at no additional cost other than train time?

You think this is balanced??

I think for this to be balanced, it must cost more stone. This way at least you cant make like 5 practice ranges, go p2 at 6 mins and immediately win. In addition, it requires late game stone eco, which people are often quick to abandon in favor of metal eco.

In other words, I like @wowgetoffyourcellphone's cost of 100 wood, 200 stone which now makes it 3 in favor.

Don't panic, nothing has been committed yet! It's all talk for now.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

5 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

It's all talk for now.

I think one of the bigger questions is what the role of the practice range. I don't really like it being only powerful rank 3 units.

What do you all think about my middle ground solution?

Archery range costs: 100 wood, 200 stone ( @wowgetoffyourcellphone).

P1: can train both archers and crossbows at tier 1 (normal citizen soldiers)

P2: upgrade becomes available called "crossbow regiments" or something:

• Allows tier 3 crossbows to train with much slower train time, or cost if train time is not enough.
• archers remain a normal citizen soldier.

Maybe in addition to this, It would be good to allow archers and spears to train from CC and Barracks in P1, but in order to access crossbows in p1, you have to invest in the archery range?

[Yekaterina]

I like your thinking!

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

middle ground

Rank 2 units

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

P1: can train both archers and crossbows at tier 1 (normal citizen soldiers)

Maybe leave crossbows at P2 and later because they were cutting-edge tech at the time, and a village shouldn't have been able to mass produce this units. The Han used crossbows to counter Mongolian (Xiongnu) archer cavalry, so maybe they can get a bonus against archer cav (which is currently extremely annoying to players before P3). 

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

 upgrade becomes available called "crossbow regiments" or something

I like this idea. Maybe a free tech or very cheap tech that requires little time to research.

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Allows tier 3 crossbows to train with much slower train time, or cost if train time is not enough.

Rank 3 units already need 57% more time to train than rank 1 units, so I think that's a big enough nerf. Please also consider that rank 3 ranged units do no additional pierce damage nor extra armour, so they are not OP at all!

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

10 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Maybe leave crossbows at P2 and later because they were cutting-edge tech at the time, and a village shouldn't have been able to mass produce this units. The Han used crossbows to counter Mongolian (Xiongnu) archer cavalry, so maybe they can get a bonus against archer cav (which is currently extremely annoying to players before P3). 

1.2 multilier?