Revealing attackers in Fog of War

[wraitii]

Hello everyone, this is a quick poll to raise attention towards D3492.

That diff enables Age of Empires-like "reveal attackers in the fog of war" capability.

I'd like to confirm that this is desirable.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

13 minutes ago, wraitii said:

Hello everyone, this is a quick poll to raise attention towards D3492.

That diff enables Age of Empires-like "reveal attackers in the fog of war" capability.

I'd like to confirm that this is desirable.

1. That terrain's ugly, but more importantly:

2. I think the feature is desirable yes. 

3. I'll comment with additional ideas on the diff.

Edited March 30, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Quote

First, doing something for this is definitely desirable.

Idea: Perhaps a new flag actor pops up at the position of the unseen attacker instead of revealing the terrain and actual unit?

A red flag with a bow and arrow icon on it, perhaps.

 

[Player of 0AD]

For me that does not look like fog of war, to be precise. Rather like unexplored territory.

[Grapjas]

Massive no vote for me, if your unit doesnt have the vision range you dont get to see it. Both in SOD/FOW is a no for me. Seems like an oversimplification in gameplay to me and makes it even harder to be sneaky (because an entity in SOD/FOW being revealed really pops out from the rest).

EDIT: Could make it a toggleable game option though, to satisfy both groups.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Grapjas

[maroder]

From a pure logic standpoint I would vote not to reveal it, because if you're unit doesn't have the vision range in the first place, why should it suddenly see something that is further away?

Edit: indicating from which direction the unit is attacked or only getting a sign/flag would be nice.

Edit2: Why exactly do women have a lower LOS that other units? I would think it would be good to unify it for non-cav units.

Edited March 30, 2021 by maroder

[LetswaveaBook]

My view is that if your units get slaughtered, the player should get a visual notification.

 

No spooky actions at a distance!

[hyperion]

What happens when the archer stops firing? Does the revealed region get unexplored?

Well, as long as it doesn't result in vision ranges getting reduced I don't mind this feature, otherwise I rather don't have it.

 

[wraitii]

46 minutes ago, hyperion said:

What happens when the archer stops firing? Does the revealed region get unexplored?

No, that's not really doable at the moment. The region stays explored.
The feature as described above cannot be toggled in the options - could be a game setting option however.

I'm reading some people that would rather have an indicator that "something" is firing in FoW. That's doable also.

Note that yes, this will mostly only affect:

• women who have a short vision range
• structures that may get attacked by long-range artillery.

In general other units will see their attacker, making the feature redundant.

[hyperion]

1 hour ago, wraitii said:

I'm reading some people that would rather have an indicator that "something" is firing in FoW. That's doable also.

The feature as-is is intuitive, there is no learning or reading up involved to understand what it is about. So -1 for flags from me.

 

1 hour ago, wraitii said:

women who have a short vision range

Fixed: woman are depicted short-sighted ...

[alre]

I second @maroder, that women should see as far as men do, I think they also should be a bit faster.

My friends still make jokes about the fact that last time someone complained about the fact that women are too weak, in response they only got further nerfed.

 

 

 

[maroder]

24 minutes ago, alre said:

My friends still make jokes about the fact that last time someone complained about the fact that women are too weak, in response they only got further nerfed

At least there is Wows mod now:

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/37183-two-gendered-citizens-mod-please-test/

[Nescio]

22 hours ago, maroder said:

Edit2: Why exactly do women have a lower LOS that other units? I would think it would be good to unify it for non-cav units.

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3776

[Dakara]

No 

you can know by the way of arrow no?  

[Panther]

5 hours ago, wraitii said:

could be a game setting option however.

This. ^

[chrstgtr]

On 30/03/2021 at 1:32 PM, maroder said:

From a pure logic standpoint I would vote not to reveal it, because if you're unit doesn't have the vision range in the first place, why should it suddenly see something that is further away?

Edit: indicating from which direction the unit is attacked or only getting a sign/flag would be nice.

Edit2: Why exactly do women have a lower LOS that other units? I would think it would be good to unify it for non-cav units.

It makes sense for women (and men) to have lower LOS while doing eco because you will naturally be distracted while chopping a tree, mining, or farming and consequently less likely to notice a unit walking in the far off distance. 

 

I don't see how to say women/men have different vision ranges. 

 

I would prefer for LOS to be unified but for the LOS to be decreased when a unit is doing eco. (and maybe a intermediate LOS when a unit is walking/fighting/under attack)

 

Edit: This should satisfy everyone who wants to see far off units when being attacked without creating weird situations where you can suddenly see farther than a unit is "able" to normally see. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by chrstgtr

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Lower vision range while gathering makes a lot of logical sense and gameplay sense. It would behoove a player to station a few guards to spot incoming raids. 

[chrstgtr]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Lower vision range while gathering makes a lot of logical sense and gameplay sense. It would behoove a player to station a few guards to spot incoming raids. 

@Nescio, can it be done with the code?

@borg-and I talked about it last night and agreed it was a good idea but that code may be a limitation. 

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by chrstgtr

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

@Nescio, can it be done with the code?

@borg-and I talked about it last night and agreed it was a good idea but that code may be a limitation. 

 

I would say the Citizen-Soldiers' vision range reduces to the same as a Female Citizen while they gather, either that or reduced by 50%. You can extend the non-gathering vision range a bit and reduce their aggression range to 85% or so (already doable, @Freagarachshowed me how, in UnitAI). 

[smiley]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I would say the Citizen-Soldiers' vision range reduces to the same as a Female Citizen while they gather, either that or reduced by 50%. You can extend the non-gathering vision range a bit and reduce their aggression range to 85% or so (already doable, @Freagarachshowed me how, in UnitAI). 

Something like this?

<ResourceGatherer>

<Modifiers>[]</Modifiers>

</ResourceGatherer>

 

[maroder]

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I would say the Citizen-Soldiers' vision range reduces to the same as a Female Citizen while they gather,

I think it would be good to unify the ranges beforehand, i.e

19 hours ago, Nescio said:

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3776

because if not, there is still the logic inconsistency that soilders/men are able to see further than women (when they are just standing in the field or walking). Otherwise I like @chrstgtr idea.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

1 hour ago, maroder said:

because if not, there is still the logic inconsistency that soilders/men are able to see further than women (when they are just standing in the field or walking). Otherwise I like @chrstgtr idea.

Simply speaking, men tend to see better in the dark than women at the cost of having a harder time differentiating colours.  Thus, since the fog of war is dark, men should have more line of sight.

In seriousness, the issue is not that women can't see that far; there are a few female units that have better line of sight.  The problem is that at the moment only women for the most part are dedicated economic units.  Introducing non-gender specific workers such as slaves would generally fix this issue.

[hyperion]

11 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

can it be done with the code?

Most of all can be done if someone does the coding. Well, this suggestion doesn't seem well defined in the first place. For instance what happens when shuttling resources? Does patrolling give a bonus? There are plenty states to think through.

Then the premise is questionable. Harassing does most of it's damage by forcing a reaction or even overreaction. How does slightly increased vision range of woman change anything here?

DE has some outposts around the CC at start, so vision is guaranteed anyway. Something I actually wouldn't mind in vanilla. If added increased vision range for woman wouldn't change anything.

Last but not least, this is a rather complex feature just to make it a tad easier to snipe a woman or two between minute 3-6. Reducing the default arrow count would be more effective.

[faction02]

 

On 31/03/2021 at 7:06 PM, Dakara said:

No 

you can know by the way of arrow no?  

You might also deduce from the reaction of the unit in which direction is the attacker. Since most units with low line of sight (women, traders, fishing ship, priest) will flee in the opposite direction from the attacker by default. It might help for navigating dogs in the enemy territory.

I wonder if this should be enabled for buildings, especially palisades/fields, which don't really have vision in the first place. I see most comments about units but not so many about structures...

[Dakara]

Rome have tech in A23 for more vision :D, in A24 too?