The Kingdom of Kush: A proper introduction [Illustrated]

[wackyserious]

@Sundiata Any particular details which are inaccurate in the textures? Particularly in the loin cloth and its tassel.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone Spec maps should will only be applied in the areas where the skin is exposed right? By looking at the sampe spec maps, does it mean that (black = not affected by spec map?)

Right, white = strongest specular, black = least specular. Things like cloth would generally be pretty dark, while metal is the whitest. Skin and leather is in between.

2 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

@Sundiata Any particular details which are inaccurate in the textures? Particularly in the loin cloth and its tassel.

This is why we need separate threads.

Edited August 12, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Sundiata]

@LordGood The walls and coral look just right.. The architectural set is really coming along very nicely.... May I suggest a pylon gateway though? They were used more ceremoniously than defensively, but just like most aspects of Kushite society, there was a lot of symbolic/ceremonial use of stuff.

Spoiler

Pylon gateway to the Amun temple complex at Dangeil

 

@stanislas69 We have written records of the 25th dynasty Kushite pharaoh Piye using battering rams and siege-towers. These records were studied by the later Kings and Queens of Kush, so they definitely knew what they were. But once again, I have no idea what they looked like, or whether they used them in the 500BC-1AD period... A generic battering ram doesn't seem like a bad idea though.

I'm in favour of the Amun temple being the Special Building. A wonder needs to be unique, and off the top of my head, I can think of at least 8 different Amun temple complexes throughout the Kingdom of Kush, all of them following the exact same floor-plan. The cult of Amun formed a sort of shadow-government, and influenced many aspects of Kushite society, including politics, religion, culture, warfare and economy. The pyramids could just be a given... One of the unique things about playing with Kush.

The most unique, monumental structure/complex we know of is Musawwarat es Sufra, known to the Kushites as Aborepi (place of the elephant). At least some of their royals grew up here. This is also the most likely place for elephant training in Kush. Basically the perfect wonder:

Spoiler

 

 

 

@wackyserious Thank you! Some of their warriors made use of leopard and lion pelts around their waist. It seems to have been symbolic, being a sign of bravery (to have been able to kill one of those animals is not an easy task) and the leopard pelt in particular has a spiritual side to it as well, being closely associated with Amun. Their shields were often made of/covered with cow or oxhide (brown or black spots over white), as well as leopard skin and elephant- and rhino-leather. The units you made look really good as they are, and do seem to represent the urban elites. Noble and royal elites would have also made use of bronze scale armour:

Spoiler

2 examples of different types of bronze scale armour used by Kushite nobles and royals

King Tarekeniwal

 

Kushites used a large variety of loincloths. Here is a particularly popular design:

 

@Lion.Kanzen Up to now, I've only found a single reference for that type of shield coming from the right time-period. The problem is, it's seen in a figurine from Ptolemaic Egypt, featuring a Nubian mercenary. It's very possible they were used in ancient Kush, though I'm sure pointy shields like that would have been avoided on horse-back (looks like you could seriously stab your own horse with that). 

@wowgetoffyourcellphone Feel free to start the necessary threads. I don't know where to start them without spamming the forum  My request for a sub-forum didn't get me very far...

Edited August 12, 2017 by Sundiata

[Lion.Kanzen]

Whe need missing names, I'm sure the ancient hieroglyphs are unknown, but must be something close to their language.

• Bonus 
• unique tech 
• team bonus

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Sundiata open under RotE forum and if @wowgetoffyourcellphone Something specific for his mod open there.

 

[Sundiata]

I haven't had time to focus on the indigenous terminology yet, which is indeed very difficult seen as their language is very poorly understood. I was thinking that we can combine ancient Egyptian and modern Nubian as an approximation for ancient Meroitic...

For bonuses and unique techs, I was thinking something like:

- Saqiya: animal driven waterwheel, introduced in the Ptolemaic period, increasing agricultural output.

- Cattle herding: lowered cost to train large herds of cattle

- Iron-smelting: metal mining bonus

- Fervor of Amun: warriors fight with increased strength and passion, for the love of Amun

- Fired brick making: significantly increased strength for buildings

- Jewelry making: trade bonus 

...

[Stan`]

I really think it's time to split this thread. What could be done to keep track of issues is to open some on the github repository so we can keep track of what is to be done 

[Sundiata]

Let's keep this thread as it is, and copy the relevant sections to the necessary new threads?

[Stan`]

Yeah, would work.

[Sundiata]

It's just that I've grown quite fond of this thread. It is literally the only place on the internet that offers such a large collection of sources and visual references on the Kingdom of Kush. I'd hate to see it split up... It can be used as a reference source for so many purposes outside of 0AD as well.

[Stan`]

Hard to use a source that's not organised in sections don't you think ?

[wackyserious]

If that is so, I have to change the animal hide in one of the textures, I used giraffe skin for it.

[Sundiata]

Yes, that's why the relevant sections should be copied into new threads. This single master thread is important. It's value goes beyond 0AD. + some people like to read a lot  

[LordGood]

Fast track thread, I like it. As lovely as ceremonial pylons would be for the gate house, my concern is that it doesn't leave a lot of room for troops and elephants especially. Pathfinder is going to be particularly upset with it.

[Stan`]

I have always wondered if some civs should not have smaller gates and not allow any siege engines at all.

That and having destroyable gates for walls but that's harder to do. Maybe with #2577

[niektb]

5 hours ago, Sundiata said:

Yes, that's why the relevant sections should be copied into new threads. This single master thread is important. It's value goes beyond 0AD. + some people like to read a lot  

Maybe create an index in the first post in this topic to make browsing this thread easier?

[Sundiata]

The Kingdom of Kush:

A Kingdom of the bow, the axe, the spear, the dagger, and the mace

Boston Museum of Fine Arts collection

 

The fourth in a series of selected Kushite artefacts from the museum of fine arts, Boston. See more of the collection here, in Kushite Gold, Kushite Bronze and Kushite pottery, beads and faience. This post will be of particular interest to Kushite military units.

A very important note that needs to be made, is that Kushites did not burry their dead with weapons of warfare. This was very confusing for early researchers, who, in conjunction with the leading prejudices of the time, concluded that Kushites were not a warlike people. They concluded that the 17 Egyptian Middle Kingdom fortresses in Lower Nubia were built to keep out another, unknown fantasy enemy. Obviously, nothing could be further from the truth, and this has been readdressed in more contemporary research.  

Despite the Kushites not commonly burying their dead with weapons, as with everything, there are exceptions, and the Musuem of Fine Arts houses quite a few of these exceptions. It seems to me that most of the weapons found buried in Kushite graves are most closely related with the hunt, and ceremonial purposes. Kushites simply didn't expect to wage war in the afterlife... Nonetheless, these exceptions give us something tangible to work with.  

 

Spoiler

I will begin by posting a collection of Kerma period bronze daggers with ivory pommels. For some reason, quite a few of these survived to this time. The reason these are important, is because daggers remain important throughout the entirety of Sudanese history, and provide the original template for Meroitic short-swords, featured in a number of Meroitic reliefs.

 

And finally, a rare Napatan period bronze dagger. At approximately 33cm it's increasing length provides us with the missing link, between Kerma period daggers, and Meroitic short swords.

 

A model stone axe, a full sized iron axe, and an armour piercing bronze axe. Axes seem to have been one of the preferred infantry weapons of the time

A collection of bronze model axe-heads

 

Stone arrow heads have been found in abundance at Meroitic sites

 

Iron and bronze, barbed arrowheads are common finds as well

 

A magnificent bronze quiver, with sadistically barbed bronze arrowheads, and a collection of heavily corroded iron arrowheads and a spear tip

 

More heavily corroded, barbed iron arrowheads, and a collection of knives

 

These more than 20cm long, heavily corroded iron spear tips would have been quite formidable weapons.

 

A collection of metal mace-heads

 

A collection of stone mace-heads

 

And finally, a collection of bronze chisels, small axe-heads and blades

 

[wackyserious]

What do you think of the necklace?

[Sundiata]

I like them, but the more elaborate one on the left should only be used for elite/noble units. Other than that, personal decorations like these would have been worn commonly by every level of society, making use of cut stones, ceramics and glass, and as you moved up the social ladder, you'd see more bronze, silver and gold.

This is all really good stuff by the way... The buildings... The units...

This is going to be the most accurate representation of the Kushites anywhere, ever...

 

@LordGood  You're right about the pylon gateway being too narrow... But how lovely it would look indeed...

Edited August 12, 2017 by Sundiata

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Yeah, no need to split the thread itself, just split off the conversations.  This thread can remain as it is of course. It's a fantastic resource.

[niektb]

May I also point out that you've linked your image from other websites quite a few times, it might be a good idea to back them up properly  I stumbled across that when continuing the Rise of the East project. I couldn't use much of their old references since quite a bit of their sources went offline  Imgur for example throws away images when their monthly (or yearly, dunno exactly) view count drops below a certain point... => that apparently changed two years ago

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

@LordGood  You're right about the pylon gateway being too narrow... But how lovely it would look indeed...

Battle for Middle Earth 2 had two types of portals: Gates and Sally Ports. Gates were very large and let all kinds of units through, friend and foe alike. They were like 0 a.d.'s gates though--they let enemies through into your city if the gate was open. So, there's a level of management required with Gates. Sally Ports on the other hand required no management, as they did not let enemies through, only the player's own units. Catch was, it only let one unit through at a time, so was much slower, more costly, and didn't allow larger units like siege weapons through. So, basically you get more bandwidth with Gates, but are less secure. You get less bandwidth with Sally Ports, but are more secure.

Edited August 12, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Battle for Middle Earth 2 had two types of portals: Gates and Sally Ports. Gates were very large and let all kinds of units through, friend and foe alike. They were like 0 a.d.'s gates though--they let enemies through into your city if the gate was open. So, there's a level of management required with Gates. Sally Ports on the other hand required no management, as they did not let enemies through, only the player's own units. Catch was, it only let one unit through at a time, so was much slower, more costly, and didn't allow larger units like siege weapons through. So, basically you get more bandwidth with Gates, but are less secure. You get less bandwidth with Sally Ports, but are more secure.

I'm considerating have more options with gates and walls, have broad walls, double palisade wall, fences for cattle.

i will look for some examples. Build city walls or palisades isn't enough.

[Sundiata]

@niektb You're absolutely right, I made that mistake for the first few posts because I had trouble uploading them directly... I've been thinking about re-uploading them directly for that same reason.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Just now, Lion.Kanzen said:

I'm considerating have more options with gates and walls, have broad walls, double palisade wall, fences for cattle.

i will look for some examples. Build city walls or palisades isn't enough.

While I enjoy options, you have to make options distinct. What would be the functional difference between a palisade and a fence, strictly speaking, besides the fence being cheaper? Right now, there are a lot of functional differences besides cost between Palisades and City Walls.