Alpha 24 SVN Teamgame

[kangz]

anyone experiencing problems with the FONTS???

[GunChleoc]

@Boudica

 

[nani]

List of possible problems and complains from game played a24 4vs4 random map, take into account that performance is comapred with a23. (last svn revision as for 2/6/2021 windows build)

1) Very heavy lag when using the scrollbar in gamestup. All players looks like they are about to disconnect. (Ex. Relic count, Relic duration scrolls) [this issue I think is very important to fix]
2) Chat with too much interline space (in a23 is much less space)
3) Map browser doesn't select first result if Entrer is pressed
4) Construction countdown  time texts and number of number of units building it text are too vertically close
5) Camera stutters hard when moving it with keyboard (also happens with middle click mouse)
6) Buildings icons too small/hard to see
7) Some orders/actions seem to be lost/ignored when in late game/lag/low fps
8) Sometimes untis seem to attack houses instead of capture if they are left idle
9) When ending game (session) and load -> stats page loading freezes and even Windows suggest to close 0ad as it doesn't seem to be responding.
10) Multiple occurrences of random 1-2 seconds for when the game drops to 4 fps on my case (looks random) and then returns to normal 17-30 fps

Graphics settings for me: no MSAA, GLSL on, no shadows, no particles, no mods 

metadata.jsoncommands.txt mainlog.7z

In the mainlog you can see the insane absurd amount of net gamesetup messages when using scrolling for the settings ( i suggest using some kind of debounce function)

 

@Stan`

Edited February 7, 2021 by nani

[Dizaka]

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Well I was thinking about getting the testing version for mac and I realized my computer isn't able to update to run the version since its from 2011. Will the new alpha also only be supported on newer versions of Mac OS?

If so, it looks like breaky will be squinting at a 13 inch macbook pro rather than the giant 27 inch from 2011 lol.

SquintyBurrito_007 it is!

[kangz]

 

35 minutes ago, kangz said:

anyone experiencing problems with the FONTS???

have graphics issue. wonder what the problem is. amd ryzen 5 and 1050ti

[badosu]

I'm concerned about the quality of the sound effects on A24 (unit hits, mining resources, building structures).

Maybe it's just me but doesn't sound very good, the quality. Each action does not sound too distinct.

An improvement is that the sound selection has less high-frequency which is less harsh to the ears, but the sounds themselves aren't very distinct.

One thing I remember from A23 is that it had some random pitchshifting between each sound play.

The sound effects themselves sound 'cheap'. I don't know how to say this in any other manner, maybe some research could be done to find good CC effects or just use a pool for sound triggers with a random selection each time?

It sounds way too simplistic for a game of this quality.

Edited February 6, 2021 by badosu

[ffffffff]

tomorrow again a nice round of matches? i would be if we u have no errors and can play  20 pm ECT

[Stan`]

1 hour ago, kangz said:

 

have graphics issue. wonder what the problem is. amd ryzen 5 and 1050ti

Can you take screenshots?

1 hour ago, badosu said:

I'm concerned about the quality of the sound effects on A24 (unit hits, mining resources, building structures).

Maybe it's just me but doesn't sound very good, the quality. Each action does not sound too distinct.

An improvement is that the sound selection has less high-frequency which is less harsh to the ears, but the sounds themselves aren't very distinct.

One thing I remember from A23 is that it had some random pitchshifting between each sound play.

The sound effects themselves sound 'cheap'. I don't know how to say this in any other manner, maybe some research could be done to find good CC effects or just use a pool for sound triggers with a random selection each time?
 

Sounds use soundgroups and do play a variety of sounds randomly with random pitch and random gain @Samulis worked on those sounds so he might be able to fix the problems.

Quote

It sounds way too simplistic for a game of this quality.

I think it sounds better than A23B less clickety.

2 hours ago, nani said:

List of possible problems and complains from game played a24 4vs4 random map, take into account that performance is comapred with a23. (last svn revision as for 2/6/2021 windows build)
1) Very heavy lag when using the scrollbar in gamestup. All players looks like they are about to disconnect. (Ex. Relic count, Relic duration scrolls) [this issue I think is very important to fix]
2) Chat with too much interline space (in a23 is much less space)
3) Map browser doesn't select first result if Entrer is pressed

4) Construction countdown  time texts and number of number of units building it text are too vertically close

6) Buildings icons too small/hard to see
7) Some orders/actions seem to be lost/ignored when in late game/lag/low fps
8) Sometimes untis seem to attack houses instead of capture if they are left idle
9) When ending game (session) and load -> stats page loading freezes and even Windows suggest to close 0ad as it doesn't seem to be responding.
10) Multiple occurrences of random 1-2 seconds for when the game drops to 4 fps on my case (looks random) and then returns to normal 17-30 fps

@Stan`

@wraitii

@Freagarach @Angen

Quote

 

5) Camera stutters hard when moving it with keyboard (also happens with middle click mouse)

@vladislavbelov any idea?

 

[vladislavbelov]

15 minutes ago, Stan` said:

@vladislavbelov any idea?

Any video? Might be a hotkey issue, Idk.

[kangz]

1 minute ago, Stan` said:

Can you take screenshots?

Sounds use soundgroups and do play a variety of sounds randomly with random pitch and random gain @Samulis worked on those sounds so he might be able to fix the problems.

I think it sounds better than A23B less clickety.

@wraitii

@Freagarach @Angen

@vladislavbelov any idea?

 

its weird but the screenshot seems ok while in game the graphics are blurry

[Stan`]

What if you use PrntScreen instead of F2?

[kangz]

8 minutes ago, Stan` said:

What if you use PrntScreen instead of F2?

screenshot doesnt capture it unfortunately

left is a24

https://ibb.co/album/KFFtr9

[Stan`]

4 minutes ago, kangz said:

screenshot doesnt capture it unfortunately

left is a24

https://ibb.co/album/KFFtr9

What OS are you on?

[kangz]

1 minute ago, Stan` said:

What OS are you on?

windows 10. I have 4k monitor scaled to 150 maybe thats the problem?

[Samulis]

2 hours ago, badosu said:

I'm concerned about the quality of the sound effects on A24 (unit hits, mining resources, building structures).

Maybe it's just me but doesn't sound very good, the quality. Each action does not sound too distinct.

An improvement is that the sound selection has less high-frequency which is less harsh to the ears, but the sounds themselves aren't very distinct.

One thing I remember from A23 is that it had some random pitchshifting between each sound play.

The sound effects themselves sound 'cheap'. I don't know how to say this in any other manner, maybe some research could be done to find good CC effects or just use a pool for sound triggers with a random selection each time?

It sounds way too simplistic for a game of this quality.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Each sound uses both random pitch shifting AND a range of up to 10 randomly chosen variants, each constructed from a combination of unique audio components. I recorded all of the source materials myself, as it is much simpler and faster than digging through CC sounds (and less legal hassle). I've been designing sounds for games (and sample libraries) since 2010 so I have a pretty substantial library of custom recordings I have done to speed this up.

For example, here are all the variants of the weapon attack + impact combo sounds (which we are using right now to demonstrate the result, until actual weapon impacts are properly implemented). Each component of the sound (thud, metal, swing noise, handling noise, armor noise, etc.) can be remixed as desired at any time:

There are a few problems we are working with at the moment:

1. Many of the original sounds are from before 2010, when the standards and style of sound design was very different.
   1. For example, many of the original sounds are of more of an arcade-y or non-realistic style, which was the dominant style of the early to mid 2000's (for example, metallic 'sliding' sword-on-sword noises, which are not how Bronze or Iron Age swords were used or sound). However, now it is expected that games such as this sound more realistic and accurate (e.g. Kingdom Come Deliverance, Mount & Blade II, even something late 2000's like Age of Empires III, versus older games like AoE I/II, Civ III, etc.).
   2. Many of the sounds also seemed to come from old sources or poor recordings with low sample rates, for example, many are missing content above 8 or 12 kHz, which is what gives them the 'harsh highs' you described. All of the new 'raw' recordings I am doing are at industry standard 48 kHz/24-bit sample rate and bit depth, using professional recording equipment. It is then very easy to tweak and improve the sounds because no information is missing.
2. Any positional sound effect must be monophonic (single channel) for the sound engine, which greatly limits the 'colors' available, sort of like black and white vs. color photography. Too much reverb for example, and the sound becomes very muddy and 'wrong' sounding. So, we still must be careful with effects and processing!
3. There were issues with the sound code which caused levels of some sounds to be massively off, so we are still tweaking levels to get sounds at correct volumes. For example, just playing through now, goat death sounds are very loud and sword attack sounds are a bit quiet. These are very very easy to tweak though, so we can adjust these a lot!

Regardless, these sounds are still in draft form and will certainly see tweaks. There are now at least three qualified sound designers working on these and other new sounds so if all goes well, we will get a lot of nice results. For example, the metal and stone sounds were not done by any of us so have not been tweaked at all yet, and there already are some suggestions by the others to tweak the woodcutting and bow sounds slightly.

My general advice with the new sounds is to play through a few games with them, and see if you still feel the same way when you compare back to the old sounds. We are making a big change here so it will be shocking at first to anyone who has played for a while (myself included!).

If you or anyone else has more specific feedback (e.g. "I do not like the weapon sounds because of the low metallic part" or "The building sounds seem too dry/thin and low-pitched"), that would be much more helpful for us. 

[hyperion]

9 minutes ago, Stan` said:

I think it sounds better than A23B less clickety.

The one for gathering wood is the only one I noticed to be completely off. Like two wooden sticks used as an instrument as a beat in a track. When it sounds like this you certainly wont cut a tree within a decade.

There are sure quite a few sounds to get used to, overall the quality of the sounds seems better.

[hyperion]

13 minutes ago, Samulis said:

There were issues with the sound code which caused levels of some sounds to be massively off, so we are still tweaking levels to get sounds at correct volumes.

Yeah, that would improve things by a lot.

 

16 minutes ago, Samulis said:

For example, the metal and stone sounds were not done by any of us

Stone sounds rather good, metal not that bad either IIRC

[Samulis]

17 minutes ago, hyperion said:

The one for gathering wood is the only one I noticed to be completely off. Like two wooden sticks used as an instrument as a beat in a track. When it sounds like this you certainly wont cut a tree within a decade.

It is the real sound of me cutting a log with an axe actually! It could be deeper and maybe more rotten/cracking sounding, as I was not able to find a very big log, instead using a modest log. I might try again later this year with a large tree branch or a proper tree if I can find one that needs to come down or if a storm blows one down.

8 minutes ago, hyperion said:

Yeah, that would improve things by a lot.

 

Stone sounds rather good, metal not that bad either IIRC

My thought with stone is to make it more 'flaky' and ring less, so it is more distinct from metal. More like a sandstone/sedimentary rock than the moderately hard rock sound in the game right now. The metal isn't realistic (metals usually appear only as trace elements, usually oxides, within certain types of rock) but it is distinct, so might just get left to make sure people do not confuse metal for stone.

Thanks for being specific!

[Freagarach]

10 hours ago, nani said:

List of possible problems and complains from game played a24 4vs4 random map, take into account that performance is comapred with a23. (last svn revision as for 2/6/2021 windows build)

1) Very heavy lag when using the scrollbar in gamestup. All players looks like they are about to disconnect. (Ex. Relic count, Relic duration scrolls) [this issue I think is very important to fix]
2) Chat with too much interline space (in a23 is much less space)
3) Map browser doesn't select first result if Entrer is pressed
4) Construction countdown  time texts and number of number of units building it text are too vertically close
5) Camera stutters hard when moving it with keyboard (also happens with middle click mouse)
6) Buildings icons too small/hard to see
7) Some orders/actions seem to be lost/ignored when in late game/lag/low fps
8) Sometimes untis seem to attack houses instead of capture if they are left idle
9) When ending game (session) and load -> stats page loading freezes and even Windows suggest to close 0ad as it doesn't seem to be responding.
10) Multiple occurrences of random 1-2 seconds for when the game drops to 4 fps on my case (looks random) and then returns to normal 17-30 fps

Graphics settings for me: no MSAA, GLSL on, no shadows, no particles, no mods 

metadata.json 296 kB · 1 download commands.txt 1 MB · 1 download   mainlog.7z 1 MB · 0 downloads

In the mainlog you can see the insane absurd amount of net gamesetup messages when using scrolling for the settings ( i suggest using some kind of debounce function)

 

@Stan`

[1]: There is already some delay for sending data to the lobby bot, one could implement the same for changes sent to other clients.
[2,4]: Seems like mostly preference-related. Feel free to make a patch
[3]: D3532
[7]: Got an example video or something?
[8]: About where in the replay?

Thanks for the reports

[nani]

1 hour ago, Freagarach said:

[1]: There is already some delay for sending data to the lobby bot, one could implement the same for changes sent to other clients.
[2,4]: Seems like mostly preference-related. Feel free to make a patch
[3]: D3532
[7]: Got an example video or something?
[8]: About where in the replay?

Thanks for the reports

2,4) Will post now
3) Nice
7) Will record in next game if I manage but you should be able to reproduce it inside the replay while is playing (I asked other players and they said it also felt choppy)

8) Around two thirds in the game when I start to attack Talenters some units some buildings IRRC.

[GunChleoc]

9 hours ago, kangz said:

windows 10. I have 4k monitor scaled to 150 maybe thats the problem?

Sounds plausible. You could try scaling it to 100% and reboot to test if that fixes it.

[wraitii]

12 hours ago, nani said:

List of possible problems and complains from game played a24 4vs4 random map, take into account that performance is comapred with a23. (last svn revision as for 2/6/2021 windows build)

1) Very heavy lag when using the scrollbar in gamestup. All players looks like they are about to disconnect. (Ex. Relic count, Relic duration scrolls) [this issue I think is very important to fix]

Yeah there's no debounce on that. I didn't really want to fix it before I merged further gameosetup work, but you're right that it might be worth doing. Should be easy.

12 hours ago, nani said:

2) Chat with too much interline space (in a23 is much less space)

That's a result of switching to a list to fix the lag-on-append issue. Not fixing for A24 imo.

12 hours ago, nani said:

6) Buildings icons too small/hard to see

Had to choose to show Stables while the minimal resolution we support is 1024x768. @vladislavbelovneed stats

12 hours ago, nani said:

7) Some orders/actions seem to be lost/ignored when in late game/lag/low fps

That legit sounds impossible. I'm quite curious.

12 hours ago, nani said:

10) Multiple occurrences of random 1-2 seconds for when the game drops to 4 fps on my case (looks random) and then returns to normal 17-30 fps

There's a few things (such as some tech research, or diplomacy changes) that can hang. Pathfinder also can trigger lag spikes. The game will usually show horrible FPS in those situations because of how it's counted.

Curious about 5/8/9

[badosu]

11 hours ago, Samulis said:

It is the real sound of me cutting a log with an axe actually!

Awesome!

12 hours ago, Samulis said:

If you or anyone else has more specific feedback (e.g. "I do not like the weapon sounds because of the low metallic part" or "The building sounds seem too dry/thin and low-pitched"), that would be much more helpful for us. 

As I said, generally I like that the sounds have less high frequencies. I dislike that they are less distinct now, e.g. compare javelin throws/arrow fires with building structure or chipping wood sound.

When the sounds overlap it feels hard to identify which actions are being performed and triggering which sounds, could be an issue with mixing or the fact the frequencies overlap too much.

That said, the simplicity of the sounds are an issue with A23 as well and it could just be that I'm used to that so anything different 'feels' wrong. It was said that we have some sound pool and randomization but it can't be perceived in game at all.

Anyway, that's my feedback, I'm sure there are more important issues to address on A24 so I won't dig further.

[hyperion]

11 hours ago, Samulis said:

It is the real sound of me cutting a log with an axe actually!

I listened in on it once more with full attention and disabled music this time. There are one or two hack sounds in there that aren't bad actually. Just that those off ones are far more noticeable. I'm not good at describing sounds so I searched for a reference for how it sounds when hitting with an axe actually gives a result, see video at 5 minutes in

 

12 hours ago, Samulis said:

The metal isn't realistic

True, but throwing javelins doesn't make any sound at all either. Artistic freedom it is. The current stone fx sounds like a pike hitting on granite which I like but feel free to change it.

[badosu]

6 minutes ago, hyperion said:

how it sounds when hitting with an axe

Yeah, the sound in game sounds similar. The problem is that its a very low heavy sound that distracts, not saying its an issue with the realism of the sound itself, but an holistic approach to sound design (considering all together arrows, javelin throws, melee 'shield thump', building, resource fetching, etc.. All of these overlap in the same frequencies. Although high frequency sounds are more annoying they are easier to mix.

Edited February 7, 2021 by badosu