===[TASK]=== Current issues with Celtic units and guideline for the next

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

Yes it is a common problem with Osprey illustration. They mix everything. Everything that is labeled Celtic goes in, no regards for the period or for the region. They have seen the Bormio stele and they have think "oh yes Celtic round shield", no regards for a very specific and very regional culture disconnected from the succeeding La Tène culture. They did the bad reasoning from common sense premises by extrapolating the round shield for a cavalry shield since the Romans and the Greeks did the same. Without consideration from the HUNDREDS of representation of the Celtic cavalry with oval shields. Osprey has a long history of @#$% reasoning like this, the first illustrations showing Celtic warrior with bronze age equipment. It is a shame than the incredible talent of Angus McBride got wasted by poor research and poor advice from Osprey writers.

now we have where was our mistake. putting so much mind in those references. that is how our old team comitted the mistake.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[DarcReaver]

On 12/31/2018 at 6:10 PM, stanislas69 said:

About the rosters I'd like to have the opinions of @Nescio @wowgetoffyourcellphone @temple @Prodigal Son  and also @fatherbushido (who most of the time gives an interesting input) Maybe @Sundiata and @DarcReaver as well.

Balancing is one thing, deciding the rosters is another.

As long as we stay as historical as possible I'm fine.

To keep this discussion constructive I'd like everyone to stay civil and use quotes of @Genava55's documents to voice their opinions.

Thanks for any constructive feedback.

The main topic being : What could the innacurate two handed swordsmen of the britons be replaced with, and what impact will it have on the gaul roster to make them still different.

 

 

Thanks for notifying me on this thread, but what's my exact role to be expected in this discussion?

Afaikthe way the tech tree for 0ad works you have basic unit types and champion type units. Since I'm really not aware which unit types celts used in the past I can't really provide a proper unit for replacing the 2 handed swordsmen (which currently is a champion I suppose). And gameplay wise I don't know a necessary replacement either because I've, like, never played celts even once. Only thing I could say is to replace the model with a shield soldier, keep the stats and call it a day, would be the easiest solution.

Unless you guys made  "a generic meta unit roster" consisting of unit roles and counters each faction has to have to function I unfortunately cannot point out what's missing otherwise, sorry.

[Genava55]

12 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

Only thing I could say is to replace the model with a shield soldier, keep the stats and call it a day, would be the easiest solution.

I agree, it would be the easiest solution. My proposals are part of a context where other people propose to better differentiate the two factions for a long time. I think there is a real opportunity to seize and there is enough material to make two different roster.

I will make a short summary of the history of Celtic warfare and how things have settled differently on the islands compared to the continent. The continental Celtic culture where the Gauls come from is known as the La Tène culture. This culture appeared in three regions around 500BC: Marne-Champagne (Northeastern-France), Hunsrück-Eifel (western Germany) and Bohemia (Czech republic). This culture has spread in all the direction in a short time and in 400BC they started to be a threat to Rome. We don't know how they spread so fast, migration and conquest are not enough to explain it. The period between 500 BC to 350 BC is often described as the Early phase of the La Tène culture. During this period, the Continental Celts (Gauls) use mainly the chariot for the war. There are plenty of burials with chariots and simultaneously a lot of javelins, of shield decorations with bronze applique and of very decorated helmets and scabbards. Between 350 to 200 BC a new phase described as Middle La Tène occurred with a progressive switch from chariot warfare to cavalry warfare. Chariots burials are far less frequent, the swords start to become longer and shield bosses are simpler but more practical with a net increase in their sizes and in their frequencies through time. A new art started to appeared, mostly on scabbards, from Central and Eastern Europe and has become very popular in the continent. During this period, the infantry start to grow in importance as well as the Romans described often Gallic armies to use different shield walls formations they called phalanx and testudo (the terms are misleading and confusing, this is not the same testudo than the imperial roman armies). Between 200 BC to 50 BC, it is a period described as Late La Tène where the transformation of the Gallic society is important. Urbanization and fortification are more frequent and more elaborated. The economy and trading boom up, a lot of import and export in direction with the Roman world start to occurs. Moreover the coins start to be accepted in the Celtic culture. The switch to a cavalry elite warfare is continuing, the swords become specialized with long version for the cavalry and slightly shorter ones for the infantrymen. Oppida are growing and are spreading from Central Europe and Southern France in direction of Northern France. When the Gallic Wars occurred, the late phase wasn't over and was still in maturation. The Belgians are described by Caesar as more belligerents and more brave. The Nervians are described as having an elite warrior class fighting in foot contrary to the others Gauls. This different description from Caesar agrees with the archeological records suggesting that the Belgians had smaller oppida, often with a role of hillfort more than cities contrary to the Arvernes for example. Therefore, the Late phase wasn't as much developed in the North-East than in the others parts of France. The uprising of Ambiorix shows striking difference with the other Gauls and Belgians in his tactics, with more skirmishing and ambushes. While the Eburones are as well the more distant tribe from the southern Gauls.

The Britons have a different history. There isn't a sudden change in their culture in the whole island. The first significative change during the Iron Age occurred with the Arras culture in Yorkshire. This culture has striking similarity with the Early phase of the continental La Tène. A lot of chariot burials very decorated, a lot of javelins, decorated scabbards and decorated shield bosses with bronze applique. This habit of having prestigious weapons and chariots spread first in Wales, Cornwall and Wessex and later in the whole territory of the actual England. It was a process that took a long time, from 400 BC to 150 BC. Farming developed and hill-forts spread intensively during this period. The period after 150 BC is known to have seen the development of the Aylesford–Swarling culture, with simultaneously more connection between the Belgians tribes and the Britons. This period seen a slight development of the swords in length but generally it has kept the main basis for their warfare culture: chariots, decorated shield bosses, javelins etc. The understanding of the culture of the British Iron Age is much more complex because of far less burials. For example in Dorset they had the custom to not bury every deceased persons, probably related to different beliefs. But clearly, the warfare tradition in Britain didn't have follow the same evolution than the Gauls. They used chariots for warfare from 400 BC to 70 AD.  There is also the interesting customs of using bone-javelinhead in Britain, in Scotland and in Ireland as well during the iron age. In conclusion, the Britons share more similarity with the Gauls of the Early phase of La Tène, probably with a slight transition to the cavalry when the Gallic Wars occurred and perturbed the evolution.

If we add the different accounts from Roman historians, we should conclude they had different way to fight during the wars. The Gauls started to have a warfare tradition based on the chariots, on Homeric combats and mobility. Then they switched to focus first on the infantry and the cavalry as articulate pieces of the battles to finally focusing mainly on the cavalry at the end, especially among the elites warriors. While the Britons kept a focus on chariot and on mobility, with clearly the same custom of overdecorating the weapons as suggesting more Homeric combats.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Genava55

[Genava55]

If I reduce my previous suggestions and try to be more simple:

The Gallic roster could be like this:

• Heavy infantryman (spearman or swordman) - Cingetos (generic term for warrior fighting in the front line).
• Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
• Slinger - Clucagretos (proto-indo-european reconstruction for slinger), Uassos (meaning servant, attested word) or Talanos (support person).
• Sword cavalry - Eporedos (cavalryman).
• Archer - Selgos (hunter) - Archers appeared only during the 1st Century BC, I suggest an unit available only in the 3rd phase but not an elite unit.
• Naked warrior (spearman) - Bariogaisatos (furious spearman). Fast and scary for fresh recruit (bonus against basic version of units ?) 
• Elite infantryman (swordman) - Soldurios/Soliduros (bodyguard), Ambactos (servant, protector, retainer), Adscoros (attendant, retainer).
• Elite horseman (sword or lance) - Comaterecos (patrician) or Uerouicos (victorious warrior, great fighter).
• Anti-cavalry special unit - Epouanos (horse-killer). Gallic horsemen auxiliaries are described as being efficient anti-cavalry against the Parthians at Carrhae. Eastern Celts, Belgians and Germans share this feature it seems. 

The Britonic roster could be like this:

• Heavy infantryman (spearman or swordman) - Catucos (combatant), Batacos (combatant) or Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter).
• Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
• Slinger - Clucagretos (proto-indo-european reconstruction for slinger), Uassos (meaning servant, attested word) or Talanos (support person).
• Lance cavalry - Marcacos (cavalryman). Marcos is another word for the horse, more common in the island than in the continent.
• Light cavalry with javelins - Gaisaredos (Javelin on horse, mounted), Gaisatoredos (Javelinist on horse), Adretos (who moves fast, attacker) or Bagauda (attested for horsemen as well during the Gallo-Roman rebellion).
• Naked warrior (swordman) - Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter) or Excingos (attacker, who-get-out-to-fight). The Caledonians are described as using longswords and small shield and fighting naked.
• Elite chariot warrior - Esseda (war chariot). The Britons use war chariots with a driver and an elite warrior, they throw javelins from it and continue the fight on foot (possibility for the unit to transport one infantryman ?)
• Elite noble infantryman (sword or spear) - Argos (battle champion, noble) or Donnouicos (noble warrior, noble fighter).
• Elite skirmisher infantryman - Caur (old-Irish for champion) or Art (old-Irish for champion and bear).  A propose an Irish elite javelinist, with a historical irish shortsword. If the double weapons switch is implanted, it could be an interesting unit. Polyvalent.

I removed the light cavalry from the Gallic roster to let it only for the Britons. There is actually no direct evidence for light cavalry among the Gauls, it is more a matter of supposition and interpretation. Historically probably that the javelins, the spears and the swords were used together by gallic cavalrymen.

 

Edit: I think interesting features can enhance and deepen the gameplay, like the Bariogaisatos (previous Gaesatae) having a bonus against basic version of the units because he was historically considered scary, like the Epouanos (horse-killer) being an efficient anti-cavalry with mediocre/average stats but with a strong bonus against cavalry, like the Britonic chariot possibility to carrying an infantry unit etc. What are your thoughts?

Edited January 5, 2019 by Genava55

[Stan`]

I have a question. I might or might not have been modelling the gaul theatron to replace the tavern, and I was wondering if I could use a hay roof on top, instead of the clothes. It would make it integrate better in the rest of the set.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 hours ago, Genava55 said:

If I reduce my previous suggestions and try to be more simple:

The Gallic roster could be like this:

• Heavy infantryman (spearman or swordman) - Cingetos (generic term for warrior fighting in the front line).
• Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
• Slinger - Clucagretos (proto-indo-european reconstruction for slinger), Uassos (meaning servant, attested word) or Talanos (support person).
• Sword cavalry - Eporedos (cavalryman).
• Archer - Selgos (hunter) - Archers appeared only during the 1st Century BC, I suggest an unit available only in the 3rd phase but not an elite unit.
• Naked warrior (spearman) - Bariogaisatos (furious spearman). Fast and scary for fresh recruit (bonus against basic version of units ?) 
• Elite infantryman (swordman) - Soldurios/Soliduros (bodyguard), Ambactos (servant, protector, retainer), Adscoros (attendant, retainer).
• Elite horseman (sword or lance) - Comaterecos (patrician) or Uerouicos (victorious warrior, great fighter).
• Anti-cavalry special unit - Epouanos (horse-killer). Gallic horsemen auxiliaries are described as being efficient anti-cavalry against the Parthians at Carrhae. Eastern Celts, Belgians and Germans share this feature it seems. 

The Britonic roster could be like this:

• Heavy infantryman (spearman or swordman) - Catucos (combatant), Batacos (combatant) or Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter).
• Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
• Slinger - Clucagretos (proto-indo-european reconstruction for slinger), Uassos (meaning servant, attested word) or Talanos (support person).
• Lance cavalry - Marcacos (cavalryman). Marcos is another word for the horse, more common in the island than in the continent.
• Light cavalry with javelins - Gaisaredos (Javelin on horse, mounted), Gaisatoredos (Javelinist on horse), Adretos (who moves fast, attacker) or Bagauda (attested for horsemen as well during the Gallo-Roman rebellion).
• Naked warrior (swordman) - Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter) or Excingos (attacker, who-get-out-to-fight). The Caledonians are described as using longswords and small shield and fighting naked.
• Elite chariot warrior - Esseda (war chariot). The Britons use war chariots with a driver and an elite warrior, they throw javelins from it and continue the fight on foot (possibility for the unit to transport one infantryman ?)
• Elite noble infantryman (sword or spear) - Argos (battle champion, noble) or Donnouicos (noble warrior, noble fighter).
• Elite skirmisher infantryman - Caur (old-Irish for champion) or Art (old-Irish for champion and bear).  A propose an Irish elite javelinist, with a historical irish shortsword. If the double weapons switch is implanted, it could be an interesting unit. Polyvalent.

I removed the light cavalry from the Gallic roster to let it only for the Britons. There is actually no direct evidence for light cavalry among the Gauls, it is more a matter of supposition and interpretation. Historically probably that the javelins, the spears and the swords were used together by gallic cavalrymen.

 

Edit: I think interesting features can enhance and deepen the gameplay, like the Bariogaisatos (previous Gaesatae) having a bonus against basic version of the units because he was historically considered scary, like the Epouanos (horse-killer) being an efficient anti-cavalry with mediocre/average stats but with a strong bonus against cavalry, like the Britonic chariot possibility to carrying an infantry unit etc. What are your thoughts?

Best to add this to the first post and make an evolving design. Don't want to have to search this discussion to find the roster.

[Nescio]

8 hours ago, Genava55 said:

If I reduce my previous suggestions and try to be more simple:

The Gallic roster could be like this:

Could you split up your list by phase, to make it easier to read? E.g.:

Gauls:

• village:
  • spearman
  • javelinist
  • cavalry javelinist
• town:
  • ...
• city:

8 hours ago, Genava55 said:

(proto-indo-european reconstruction for slinger)

I suppose you mean Proto-Celtic?

[SDM]

I don't know a lot about the Gauls, but one of things you mentioned is the idea that the scabbard should be made of iron. The primary function of a scabbard is to protect the sword and to make it easier to transport. Iron rusts, and an iron scabbard would surely not be effective for transportation in weather.

While I'm sure iron scabbards may exist, I don't expect them to be as prevalent as bronze, wood, or wood-cored leather.

Edited January 7, 2019 by SDM

[Genava55]

Sorry, I am really busy this month.

On 1/5/2019 at 9:07 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Best to add this to the first post and make an evolving design. Don't want to have to search this discussion to find the roster. 

You are totally right, thank you. I will do it.

On 1/5/2019 at 9:32 PM, Nescio said:

Could you split up your list by phase, to make it easier to read? E.g.:

Gauls:

• village:
  • spearman
  • javelinist
  • cavalry javelinist
• town:
  • ...
• city:

Ok, I will arrange it like this. Do not hesitate to criticize even this aspect, they are suggestions as well. 

On 1/5/2019 at 9:32 PM, Nescio said:

I suppose you mean Proto-Celtic?

No. The word for the sling or the slinger is not known in Gaulish, it is debated. The word I used come from EBII and it is clearly a reconstruction from a suspected proto-indo-european root with some features of the celtic languages. But since the new version of EBII that has come out the last month, they have changed again the name of the celtic slinger. Even so they have some very good linguists, it seems to be a difficult subject.

On 1/7/2019 at 4:55 PM, SDM said:

I don't know a lot about the Gauls, but one of things you mentioned is the idea that the scabbard should be made of iron. The primary function of a scabbard is to protect the sword and to make it easier to transport. Iron rusts, and an iron scabbard would surely not be effective for transportation in weather.

While I'm sure iron scabbards may exist, I don't expect them to be as prevalent as bronze, wood, or wood-cored leather.

Your logic is flawless. Iron rusts and it is clearly more difficult to preserve it. I will even add that the iron scabbards are even fragile, they flex easily when the sword is not in it. Clearly a possible problem during a battle.

BUT

We have found hundreds and hundreds of scabbards in Europe, most of them are in iron, some are in bronze or bronze+iron. None are in leather. Sheath in wood are found but only during the Gallo-roman period, indicated a transfer of roman technology like the sheath of Stanwick. Just an example with the location of La Tène in the Lake of Neuchâtel in Switzerland, we have found 120 scabbards. None of them were in leather or in wood while the conditions were good enough to preserve numerous wooden tools and dishes.

Then when all the evidences say the contrary, even if the logic is good, we must admit that the assumption is incorrect. In fact the reason is known, we are modern peoples with a modern mind focusing on efficiency. We should not forget that the weapons have other meanings than killing tools. These objects have a lot of cultural meaning and they fit in a society with a hierarchy and strict rules.

Here are the tools and other objects in wood from La Tène (some are replica from casting plaster):

Spoiler

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Genava55

[Genava55]

On 1/5/2019 at 7:18 PM, stanislas69 said:

I have a question. I might or might not have been modelling the gaul theatron to replace the tavern, and I was wondering if I could use a hay roof on top, instead of the clothes. It would make it integrate better in the rest of the set.

Yes you can try something like this. The only certainty in the archeological finds is that there wasn't any roof with a lot of weight. Try to do a thatched roof (or straw roof) that doesn't make it too much "peasant" like. Only something to cover against the sun.

[Genava55]

Here the arrangement  and modification to order them like a tree as suggested by @Nescio

I uploaded it to the first post of the thread:

Spoiler

The Gallic roster could be like this:

• Village
  • Heavy infantryman (spearman or swordman) - Cingetos (generic term for warrior fighting in the front line).
  • Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
  • Slinger - Clucagretos (proto-indo-european reconstruction for slinger), Uassos (meaning servant, attested word) or Talanos (support person).
• Town
  • Sword cavalry - Eporedos (cavalryman).
  • Archer - Selgos (hunter) - Archers appeared only during the 1st Century BC, I suggest an unit available only in the 3rd phase but not an elite unit.
  • Naked warrior (spearman) - Bariogaisatos (furious spearman). Fast and scary for fresh recruit (bonus against basic version of units ?) 
• City
  • Elite infantryman (swordman) - Soldurios/Soliduros (bodyguard), Ambactos (servant, protector, retainer), Adscoros (attendant, retainer).
  • Elite horseman (sword or lance) - Comaterecos (patrician) or Uerouicos (victorious warrior, great fighter).
  • Anti-cavalry special unit - Epouanos (horse-killer). Gallic horsemen auxiliaries are described as being efficient anti-cavalry against the Parthians at Carrhae. Eastern Celts, Belgians and Germans share this feature it seems. Not necessary a champion unit.

The Britonic roster could be like this:

• Village
  • Heavy infantryman (spearman or swordman) - Catucos (combatant), Batacos (combatant) or Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter).
  • Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
  • Light cavalry with javelins - Gaisaredos (Javelin on horse, mounted), Gaisatoredos (Javelinist on horse), Adretos (who moves fast, attacker) or Bagauda (attested for horsemen as well during the Gallo-Roman rebellion).
• Town
  • Slinger - Clucagretos (proto-indo-european reconstruction for slinger), Uassos (meaning servant, attested word) or Talanos (support person).
  • Lance cavalry - Marcacos (cavalryman). Marcos is another word for the horse, more common in the island than in the continent.
  • Naked warrior (swordman) - Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter) or Excingos (attacker, who-get-out-to-fight). The Caledonians are described as using longswords and small shield and fighting naked.
• City
  • Elite chariot warrior - Esseda (war chariot). The Britons use war chariots with a driver and an elite warrior, they throw javelins from it and continue the fight on foot (possibility for the unit to transport one infantryman ?)
  • Elite noble infantryman (sword or spear) - Argos (battle champion, noble) or Donnouicos (noble warrior, noble fighter).
  • Elite skirmisher infantryman - Caur (old-Irish for champion) or Art (old-Irish for champion and bear).  A propose an Irish elite javelinist, with a historical irish shortsword. If the double weapons switch is implanted, it could be an interesting unit. Polyvalent.

 

I realized I didn't put the war dogs for the Britons. It could be added as well but I don't want to overcrowd/overload the roster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogs_of_Roman_Britain

About the Epouanos, the horse-killer from the Gauls. It comes mainly from these two accounts:

Spoiler

[Gallic mercenaries lent to Crassus by Caesar] Plutarch, The Life of Crassus, XXV: For they laid hold of the long spears of the Parthians, and grappling with the men, pushed them from their horses, hard as it was to move them owing to the weight of their armour; and many of the Gauls forsook their own horses, and crawling under those of the enemy, stabbed them in the belly. These would rear up in their anguish, and die trampling on riders and foemen indiscriminately mingled.

[Usipii and Tencteri, Germans Cisrhenani] Caesar, Gallic Wars, IV, 12: When our men, in their turn, made a stand, they, according to their practice, leaped from their horses to their feet, and stabbing our horses in the belly and overthrowing a great many of our men, put the rest to flight, and drove them forward so much alarmed that they did not desist from their retreat till they had come in sight of our army.

 

 

Edit: Bonus. If you really want a two-handed swordsman, for the Indians:

Arrian, Anabasis Alexandri: Book VIII (Indica), XVI. The Indians wear linen garments, as Nearchus says, the linen coming from the trees of which I have already made mention. This linen is either brighter than the whiteness of other linen, or the people's own blackness makes it appear unusually bright. They have a linen tunic to the middle of the calf, and for outer garments, one thrown round about their shoulders, and one wound round their heads. They wear ivory ear-rings, that is, the rich Indians; the common people do not use them. Nearchus writes that they dye their beards various colours; some therefore have these as white-looking as possible, others dark, others crimson, others purple, others grass-green. The more dignified Indians use sunshades against the summer heat. They have slippers of white skin, and these too made neatly; and the soles of their sandals are of different colours, and also high, so that the wearers seem taller. Indian war equipment differs; the infantry have a bow, of the height of the owner; this they poise on the ground, and set their left foot against it, and shoot thus; drawing the bowstring a very long way back; for their arrows are little short of three cubits, and nothing can stand against an arrow shot by an Indian archer, neither shield nor breastplate nor any strong armour. In their left hands they carry small shields of untanned hide, narrower than their bearers, but not much shorter. Some have javelins in place of bows. All carry a broad scimitar, its length not under three cubits; and this, when they have a hand-to-hand fight -- and Indians do not readily fight so among themselves -- they bring down with both hands in smiting, so that the stroke may be an effective one. Their horsemen have two javelins, like lances, and a small shield smaller than the infantry's. The horses have no saddles, nor do they use Greek bits nor any like the Celtic bits, but round the end of the horses' mouths they have an untanned stitched rein fitted; in this they have fitted, on the inner side, bronze or iron spikes, but rather blunted; the rich people have ivory spikes; within the mouth of the horses is a bit, like a spit, to either end of which the reins are attached. Then when they tighten the reins this bit masters the horse, and the spikes, being attached thereto, @#$% the horse and compel it to obey the rein.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Genava55

[Nescio]

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

No. The word for the sling or the slinger is not known in Gaulish, it is debated. The word I used come from EBII and it is clearly a reconstruction from a suspected proto-indo-european root with some features of the celtic languages. But since the new version of EBII that has come out the last month, they have changed again the name of the celtic slinger. Even so they have some very good linguists, it seems to be a difficult subject.

Thank you for the clarification. Basically: Greek → *PIE → *Celtic → *Gaulish. (An asterisk denotes a reconstructed form.) I don't know what 0 A.D.'s policy on unattested things is, though.

Comparative linguistics is not necessarily difficult, it uses rigid logic, and therefore they are often right. However, it is always possible the Gauls used a word borrowed from a different language, instead of the reconstructed form.

18 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Here the arrangement  and modification to order them like a tree as suggested by @Nescio

Thanks! So the Gauls have no cavalry unit in the village phase? It might be better to merge the two city-phase cavalry units into a single champion cavalry lancer.

Is there any specific reason why the Gauls have a slinger in the village phase and the Britons in the town phase, and not the other way around?

Also, do you happen to know how common swords were compared to spears?

27 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Edit: Bonus. If you really want a two-handed swordsman, for the Indians:

Nice catch! (Interestingly that two-handed weapon is described as a sabre, not a sword.)

By the way, “the linen coming from the trees” is cotton, a material alien to the Greeks.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

By "elite" you mean Champion? Try to use the standard 0 A.D. terminology. ;)

[Genava55]

19 hours ago, Nescio said:

Comparative linguistics is not necessarily difficult, it uses rigid logic, and therefore they are often right. However, it is always possible the Gauls used a word borrowed from a different language, instead of the reconstructed form.

The difficulty in this case is more about that nothing is converging to a single root in PIE. Latin, Greek, Germanic languages and Slavic languages use different roots for the slings.

I am not a linguist thus I do not know why they do not use something related to the old Breton “Talmorion” with this supposed evolution for the word sling:

*Telksmis (PIE) => *Telmis (Proto-Celtic) => Telm/Talm in medieval Celtic.

Maybe because the word Talmorion is related to the Roman army in Aremorica during the 5^th century AD. Maybe I do not know some flaws about it.

Quote

Thanks! So the Gauls have no cavalry unit in the village phase?

Yep, I suggested this because it should be better to keep the light-cavalry to the Britons. And it could be a nice difference between the two rosters. Since the Gauls have a very strong cavalry, mostly developed later, we can limit it for the post-village phases.

Quote

It might be better to merge the two city-phase cavalry units into a single champion cavalry lancer.

It is possible as well. I proposed this because the Gauls and the Germans share this use of an irregular cavalry where they can fight both on foot and mounted. There are even accounts of mixed formation of horsemen and footmen griping the horse of their comrade to keep the pace. The accounts of Plutarch for the Gauls at Carrhae describe them as lightly armed after the piece I quoted. It is why I suggested a special cavalry with anti-cavalry bonus. It could be moved in the town phase as well. If it is accepted, I have some idea to mix some elements from the Bastarnae to make it nice and enjoyable.

Quote

 Is there any specific reason why the Gauls have a slinger in the village phase and the Britons in the town phase, and not the other way around?

Only a suggestion to balance the roster. I know that some people want to nerf the Celtic factions. In addition, it is better to have different rosters for the Britons and the Gauls.

Quote

Also, do you happen to know how common swords were compared to spears?

In the historical accounts, the sword is often mentioned for the Gauls, the Galatians and the Britons. But it is difficult to tell how reliable are these accounts.

From an archeological perspective, there is a few statistics. For the end of the fourth century to the half of the third century BC, 96% of the warrior burials in the upper half of France have a sword in it and 55% for the warrior burials in Hungary.

For the sanctuaries from the fourth to the second century BC, the swords are always the most frequent weapons, with a peak during the second half of the third century BC: three swords for one spearhead.

The reasons for this importance of the sword in the fourth and third century is the appearance of two different types and two different panoplies. In the burials of the end of the fourth and third century, the long-sword is always combined with a spearhead but it exists a slightly shorter version with a larger ferrule/chape at the end of the scabbard that is found without any spears in the burials.

However, the interpretation of these statistics is difficult. The swords are clearly more frequent on the continent than in the Isles but it could be caused by different burial tradition.

You can see the differences between the two panoplies below:

[Nescio]

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

The difficulty in this case is more about that nothing is converging to a single root in PIE. Latin, Greek, Germanic languages and Slavic languages use different roots for the slings.

That suggests the Proto-Indo-Europeans may not have had a word for a sling. (PIE doesn't have a word for chicken either; that animal didn't exist in that area back then.)

But if PIE didn't have a sling, it doesn't make much sense to use PIE to reconstruct an unattested Gaulish form.

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

In addition, it is better to have different rosters for the Britons and the Gauls.

Yes, I fully agree. The purpose of this discussion is to improve and differentiate these factions.

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

It is possible as well. I proposed this because the Gauls and the Germans share this use of an irregular cavalry where they can fight both on foot and mounted. There are even accounts of mixed formation of horsemen and footmen griping the horse of their comrade to keep the pace. The accounts of Plutarch for the Gauls at Carrhae describe them as lightly armed after the piece I quoted. It is why I suggested a special cavalry with anti-cavalry bonus. It could be moved in the town phase as well. If it is accepted, I have some idea to mix some elements from the Bastarnae to make it nice and enjoyable.

Perhaps town phase is better, because: i. Gauls were famous for their cavalry; ii. Gauls don't have a village phase horsemen; iii. two melee cavalry champions in the city phase probably makes them be viewed less unique.

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

If it is accepted

Don't worry about that, that's something for the artists to decide upon later. Right now you should simply focus on an interesting and accurate roster proposal.

21 hours ago, Nescio said:

Is there any specific reason why the Gauls have a slinger in the village phase and the Britons in the town phase, and not the other way around?

I asked because I associate France with cattle and Great Britain with sheep; the sling is primarily a goat- and shepherd's weapon; therefore I guessed slingers might be more common for Britons than Gauls. (But I know next to nothing about Celts.)

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

In the historical accounts, the sword is often mentioned for the Gauls, the Galatians and the Britons. But it is difficult to tell how reliable are these accounts.

Caesar mentioned the Gauls had a nobility class, who were skilled warriors and provided the military leaders, but also a large subject serf population, who could be called to arms in times of migration or war. Do you think it's likely the latter could have afforded swords and would have used them in combat?

[Radagast.]

On 1/15/2019 at 3:34 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

By "elite" you mean Champion? Try to use the standard 0 A.D. terminology.

Another reason to change _e templates to _v[eteran]. ;-)  Remove _b suffix  it's even a nice alphabetical order.

 

@Genava55 & consorts: The direction this is going looks very promising. IMHO the both handed swordsman should not be missed too much considering the medley and high speed in-simulation.

Am I the only one that thinks a lot of 0A.D.'s attraction comes from its tried historical accuracy instead of individual units? Variation is important, but to achieve this there are other ways. The solutions with the Indian is a good idea but there is more we could do. F.e. idle animations where units play with their inventory, laying e.g. their La Tene "long"sword onto their shoulders holding it relaxed (maybe this could distract players from the fact that the two-handed sword has been removed).

Definitely the anims will not be lost effort I hope. What about replacing the sword with a long stick and assigning the two-handed fighting anim to a celtic child (idle/playing) or shepherd (to dispel flies from their sheep and themselves!).

Thanks for the historical accounts. Interesting read! Looking at Tacitus' report, it seems we are still far from being historically accurate - not so much models, but mechanics, tactics, significance of weather/storms, riots, diplomatic means,  ...
IMO what we maybe can learn from Caesar's affairs with Britain is that one rather subdues and collaborates than to go to war as long as the enemy is civilized (care for rights, hold their words, ...). It feels this still applies to our world of today. Whatever account of war one reads or listens to, the common people always are the losers one way or the other.

I hope you are all fine and I wish you swift chariot acrobatics in 0A.D. soon. :-) Considering the brutality of 0A.D. one could add those horse killers @Genava55 cited. It appears few people know of the poor fate horses often faced. It thus may be  to spread the word about their loyalty.

@Lion.Kanzen Yes, sad to see such great drawings depicting wrong facts. Not an easy task for artists to know who to trust. It appears they almost have to be historians themselves and follow the procedures/thinking @Genava55 outlined. Is there any chance the modders cited could join forces? Why not reuse their content from medieval TW or whatever it is for 0A.D.. Create once, use twice. Sounds like more fun :-)

[Genava55]

On 1/15/2019 at 8:09 PM, Nescio said:

That suggests the Proto-Indo-Europeans may not have had a word for a sling. (PIE doesn't have a word for chicken either; that animal didn't exist in that area back then.) 

I agree. More generally, I am against any reconstruction exclusively based on PIE. I do not believe anything stay the same after several millennia, use and meaning vary a lot even at short timescale. I prefer a word already known or at least based on attested roots in use among the Celts.

On 1/15/2019 at 8:09 PM, Nescio said:

But if PIE didn't have a sling, it doesn't make much sense to use PIE to reconstruct an unattested Gaulish form.

Either we use something related to the word Telmis (sling): Telmicos/Telmiuicos combatant using the sling. Inspired from the name of the Ordovices (Ordo (mace) + uicos).  Either we use another word like Talanos (supportive person), Talaconios (supportive warrior) or Talassos (who-stands-in-support).

On 1/15/2019 at 8:09 PM, Nescio said:

I asked because I associate France with cattle and Great Britain with sheep; the sling is primarily a goat- and shepherd's weapon; therefore I guessed slingers might be more common for Britons than Gauls. (But I know next to nothing about Celts.)

I think the weapon is used by all the Celts since the beginning. By the way, sheeps, goats and pigs are the most common species among the Gauls. In La Tène archeology, cattle and horses are indicative of a higher social status (more often in the meal of warriors and nobles).

On 1/15/2019 at 8:09 PM, Nescio said:

Caesar mentioned the Gauls had a nobility class, who were skilled warriors and provided the military leaders, but also a large subject serf population, who could be called to arms in times of migration or war. Do you think it's likely the latter could have afforded swords and would have used them in combat?

I think the description from Caesar should be put into the context of the end of the La Tène civilization. Since the mid-2nd century BC, a huge boom of urbanization and of currency development was transforming the Gallic societies and it must be expected some differences between those seen by Caesar and those seen by Pytheas. 

To be precise, Caesar said the ruling class is a warrior class and he used the word “equites” to describe them, generally translated as knights in English. It fits perfectly in the evolution of a sword type getting longer, suggesting a preference for fighting mounted among the warrior class.  However, Caesar differentiate nobles and knights in his accounts. It seems to have a complex hierarchy at this time, with even what is described as magistrates and senators for the Roman view. Thus, it is likely a warlike aristocracy that rules the modest and poor population but not necessarily only nobles. Several Gallic leaders during the wars are described as from modest condition in comparison to others nobles.

Spoiler

 

“He immediately seizes a great quantity of corn and provisions, cruelly tortures them, and then puts them to death, sends messengers throughout the entire state of the Aedui, and rouses them completely by the same falsehood concerning the slaughter of their knights and nobles”

“Litavicus, having received the command of the army, suddenly convened the soldiers, when he was about thirty miles distant from Gergovia, and, weeping, said, "Soldiers whither are we going? All our knights and all our nobles have perished. Eporedirix and Viridomarus, the principal men of the state, being accused of treason, have been slain by the Romans without any permission to plead their cause.”

“That with these the Aedui and their dependents had repeatedly struggled in arms - that they had been routed, and had sustained a great calamity - had lost all their nobility, all their senate, all their cavalry”

“ While these affairs were going on at Gergovia, Convictolanis, the Aeduan, to whom we have observed the magistracy was adjudged by Caesar, being bribed by the Arverni, holds a conference with certain young men, the chief of whom were Litavicus and his brothers, who were born of a most noble family.”

“When almost all the state had assembled there, and he was informed that one brother had been declared magistrate by the other, when only a few persons were privately summoned for the purpose, at a different time and place from what he ought, whereas the laws not only forbade two belonging to one family to be elected magistrates while each was alive, but even deterred them from being in the senate, he compelled Cotus to resign his office; he ordered Convictolitanis, who had been elected by the priests, according to the usage of the state, in the presence of the magistrates, to hold the supreme authority.”

“Eporedirix, the Aeduan , a young man born in the highest rank and possessing very great influence at home, and, along with Viridomarus, of equal age and influence, but of inferior birth, whom Caesar had raised from a humble position to the highest rank, on being recommended to him by Divitiacus, had come in the number of horse, being summoned by Caesar by name.”

“Dumnorix is the person, a man of the highest daring, in great favor with the people on account of his liberality, a man eager for a revolution: that for a great many years he has been in the habit of contracting for the customs and all the other taxes of the Aedui at a small cost, because when he bids, no one dares to bid against him. By these means he has both increased his own private property, and amassed great means for giving largesses; that he maintains constantly at his own expense and keeps about his own person a great number of cavalry, and that not only at home, but even among the neighboring states, he has great influence, and for the sake of strengthening this influence has given his mother in marriage among the Bituriges to a man the most noble and most influential there; that he has himself taken a wife from among the Helvetii, and has given his sister by the mother's side and his female relations in marriage into other states; that he favors and wishes well to the Helvetii on account of this connection;”

 

The serfdom like population is similar to slaves in right according to Caesar:

Spoiler

“for the commonality is held almost in the condition of slaves, and dares to undertake nothing of itself, and is admitted to no deliberation. The greater part, when they are pressed either by debt, or the large amount of their tributes, or the oppression of the more powerful, give themselves up in vassalage to the nobles, who possess over them the same rights without exception as masters over their slaves.”

The levy seems to include sometimes slaves:

Spoiler

“After this defeat, when it was ascertained that Drapes, a Senonian (who in the beginning of the revolt of Gaul had collected from all quarters men of desperate fortunes, invited the slaves to liberty, called in the exiles of the whole kingdom, given an asylum to robbers, and intercepted the Roman baggage and provisions), was marching to the province with five thousand men, being all he could collect after the defeat, and that Luterius a Cadurcian who, as it has been observed in a former commentary, had designed to make an attack on the Province in the first revolt of Gaul, had formed a junction with him, Caius Caninius went in pursuit of them with two legions, lest great disgrace might be incurred from the fears or injuries done to the Province by the depredations of a band of desperate men.”

“There was within our camp a certain Nervian, by name Vertico, born in a distinguished position, who in the beginning of the blockade had deserted to Cicero, and had exhibited his fidelity to him. He persuades his slave, by the hope of freedom, and by great rewards, to convey a letter to Caesar. This he carries out bound about his javelin; and mixing among the Gauls without any suspicion by being a Gaul, he reaches Caesar. From him they received information of the imminent danger of Cicero and the legion.”

Caesar distinguish freemen bonds by clientship and serfs/slaves:

Spoiler

”Orgetorix drew together from all quarters to the court, all his vassals to the number of ten thousand persons; and led together to the same place all his dependents and bondsmen”

“His brother Valetiacus had borne the same office during the last year: that the whole state was up in arms; the senate divided, the people divided; that each of them had his own clients; and that, if the animosity would be fomented any longer, the result would be that one part of the state would come to a collision with the other”

Vercingetorix planned a clear logistical project to arm the levy:

Spoiler

“There in like manner, Vercingetorix the son of Celtillus the Arvernian, a young man of the highest power (whose father had held the supremacy of entire Gaul, and had been put to death by his fellow-citizens, for this reason, because he aimed at sovereign power), summoned together his dependents, and easily excited them. On his design being made known, they rush to arms: he is expelled from the town of Gergovia, by his uncle Gobanitio and the rest of the nobles, who were of opinion, that such an enterprise ought not to be hazarded: he did not however desist, but held in the country a levy of the needy and desperate. Having collected such a body of troops, he brings over to his sentiments such of his fellow-citizens as he has access to: he exhorts them to take up arms in behalf of the general freedom, and having assembled great forces he drives from the state his opponents, by whom he had been expelled a short time previously. He is saluted king by his partisans; he sends embassadors in every direction, he conjures them to adhere firmly to their promise. He quickly attaches to his interests the Senones, Parisii, Pictones, Cadurci, Turones, Aulerci, Lemovice, and all the others who border on the ocean; the supreme command is conferred on him by unanimous consent. On obtaining this authority, he demands hostages from all these states, he orders a fixed number of soldiers to be sent to him immediately; he determines what quantity of arms each state shall prepare at home, and before what time; he pays particular attention to the cavalry.”

The levy of every men seems to be something exceptional and extreme, even during the crisis of Alesia:

Spoiler

“While those things are carried on at Alesia, the Gauls, having convened a council of their chief nobility, determine that all who could bear arms should not be called out, which was the opinion of Vercingetorix, but that a fixed number should be levied from each state; lest, when so great a multitude assembled together, they could neither govern nor distinguish their men, nor have the means of supplying them with corn.”

For the rare accounts about the sword, one is suggesting it is a common weapon:

Spoiler

“Disappointed in this hope, the Nervii surround the winter-quarters with a rampart eleven feet high, and a ditch thirteen feet in depth. These military works they had learned from our men in the intercourse of former years, and, having taken some of our army prisoners, were instructed by them: but, as they had no supply of iron tools which are requisite for this service, they were forced to cut the turf with their swords, and to empty out the earth with their hands and cloaks, from which circumstance, the vast number of the men could be inferred; for in less than three hours they completed a fortification of ten miles in circumference; and during the rest of the days they began to prepare and construct towers of the height of the ramparts, and grappling irons, and mantelets, which the same prisoners had taught them.”

If we check the numbers given by Caesar, the Helvetii, whom are in migration, have 92000 men that could bear arms over a total of 368000 persons. The Bellovaci had an army of 100000 armed men including 60000 men they picked for their quality to participate to the coalition against Caesar.

From an archeological perspective during this period: “Highly technical pieces (swords, scabbards) coexist with a large quantity of mediocre pieces (hast weapons), following a phenomenon independent of the degree of general wealth of the burial.” According to Gérard Bataille (archeologist from INRAP).

As you can see, the subject is far more complex than a simple duality between nobles and serfs. There was probably a gradient of different vassalage status among the common people, from the slaves to the clients. Their numbers, their roles and their recruitment during a war are barely known. Other accounts from the classical authors give them various roles, most often as servants and squires. Are they also combatants like the Lacedemonian Helots or are they exclusively valets like the slaves in most of the Greek armies? The question of their equipment cannot be answered without knowing the status of the people levied in the army. Therefore, I cannot say that all the vassals could have a sword but during the war it seems that most of the combatants are correctly equipped and a sword is not that much a rare weapon. The proto-state or government from the Gallic senates and nobles are able to produce and distribute weapons for the levy in case of emergency. In my opinion, the common view of the sword being a weapon of the nobles is a cliché. If we took the numbers from the Helvetii and the Bellovaci, we have a ratio of 1 correctly equipped warrior to 6 persons in the population (368000/60000 = 6.1). Which is comparable to a Greek polis for hoplite. During the Gallic Wars, the horse seems to be the true feature of the Gallic aristocracy and nobility. Probably cuirasses and armors as well.

As a final blow against this view, I will remind the existence of «currency bars» in iron as trading goods. Some of these bars seem to be perfectly pre-shaped to produce swords. We have found several hundreds of them in total, both in France and in Britain.

- https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44324700_Un_nouveau_depot_de_lingots_de_fer_de_La_Tene_finale_Bretteville-sur-Odon_Calvados
- http://hist-met.org/images/pdf/hmsdatasheet08.pdf
- https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vincent_Serneels/publication/292398892_Mines_et_metallurgies_en_Gaule_a_la_fin_de_l'age_du_Fer_et_a_l'epoque_romaine/links/5718c75f08ae986b8b7a48ce.pdf
- https://chaat.hypotheses.org/files/2015/12/JE-depots-nov-2015-MPCOUSTURES.pdf
- http://aquitania.u-bordeaux-montaigne.fr/_jumi/pdf/1275.pdf

Caesar, 5, 12: As currency, they use coins in copper or in gold, or iron ingots of a fixed weight (Utuntur aut aere, aut nummo aureo, aut taleis ferreis ad certum pondus examinatis pro nummo). 

I am not saying that we should create necessarily a basic infantry unit with a sword, the spears and the javelins are as much common as the sword in the panoply and are complementary weapons. There is a lot of room for choices in the Gallic roster because: 1 it is really hard to give a proper representation of a warrior society in a video game; 2 there are some regional variations; 3 there is more than 4 centuries of evolution in the La Tène civilization. The normal panoply for a Gallic warrior is a shield, a sword and a spear or a long javelin. This is the constant criteria from the beginning to the end. The society is based on clientelism, vassalage and retinue. It is generally viewed that the beginning of La Tène war structure is based on chieftains and nobles initiatives, with their retinues armed by them. The warrior burials are more dominated by beautiful items like the Gorge Meillet and the Warcq burials. Afterward, the warrior class seems to be more egalitarian, with bigger warbands and simplier and more frequent weapons. This is probably caused by an increase in the mercenaries demand in the Mediterranean world. During this period, the warrior class is more based on a lifestyle than on birth because we find several burials with lower wealth and from various origins. It is during this period that the Celts go in the direction of the Balkans and that the Eastern warlike culture like the Przeworsk are starting to appear. Warbands are more diverse both in wealth and in origins. Interestingly, it is also from the swords of this period that Pleiner notes a decrease in the quality of the steel which is interpreted as an increasing demand of cheap weapons. Maybe possessing a sword was mandatory in the La Tène society for a warrior. It is maybe what motivated richer warriors to possess horses to rise in the social hierarchy and exchanges with the Mediterranean world have made them cheaper and better (in size especially). The development of the oppida and of the economy gave a new impulse to the structural change in the Gallic society as we saw much more light weapons in the burials and in sanctuaries (javelins and arrows). The swords increase both in quality and in size and are less dependent of the wealth of their possessors. Horses become the symbol of the ruling class as it very often depicted on coins and that we found horsemen burials more often. Maybe this period seen the apparition of levied battalions from the productive class, but I think it is more related to the apparition of senate-like political structure. I think it is the clients that are becoming more and more important and maybe they were armed by the proto-state of their ruling class. I do not think the levying of the poors and of the slaves were the norm.

It is possible to keep the actual structure with a spearman infantry in the village phase, a sword champion and a cavalry champion in the city phase. But it could be also possible to remove totally the sword champion and to gives to the Gauls a basic sword infantry and only one champion cavalry units.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Genava55

[Genava55]

Illustration of how I see these possibilities.

The Gallic roster V1:

 

Spoiler

 

• Village
  • Spearman - Cingetos (generic term for warrior fighting in the front line).
  • Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
  • Slinger - Telmiuicos (slinger), Uassos (meaning servant/vassal) or Talanos (supportive person).
• Town
  • Sword cavalry - Eporedos (cavalryman).
  • Naked warrior (spearman) - Bariogaisatos (furious spearman). Fast and scary for fresh recruit (bonus against basic version of units ?) 
  • Anti-cavalry special unit - Epouanos (horse-killer).
• City
  • Champion swordman - Soldurios/Soliduros (bodyguard), Adscoros (attendant, retainer).
  • Champion lance horseman - Comaterecos (patrician) or Uerouicos (victorious warrior, great fighter).
  • Archer - Selgos (hunter) - Archers

 

The Gallic roster V2:

Spoiler

• Village
  • Swordman - Cingetos (generic term for warrior fighting in the front line).
  • Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
• Town
  • Slinger - Telmiuicos (slinger), Uassos (meaning servant/vassal) or Talanos (supportive person).
  • Sword cavalry - Eporedos (cavalryman).
  • Naked warrior (spearman) - Bariogaisatos (furious spearman). Fast and scary for fresh recruit (bonus against basic version of units ?) 
• City
  • Champion lance horseman - Comaterecos (patrician) or Uerouicos (victorious warrior, great fighter).
  • Archer - Selgos (hunter) - Archers
  • Anti-cavalry special unit - Epouanos (horse-killer).
  • Spearman - Ambactos (who-is-around, attested word from Caesar for Gallic retinue and clients).

The Brittonic roster:

Spoiler

• Village
  • Spearman  - Catucos (combatant), Batacos (combatant) or Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter).
  • Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
  • Light cavalry with javelins - Gaisaredos (Javelin on horse, mounted), Gaisatoredos (Javelinist on horse), Adretos (who moves fast, attacker) or Bagauda (attested for horsemen as well during the Gallo-Roman rebellion).
• Town
  • Slinger - Telmiuicos (slinger), Uassos (meaning servant, attested word) or Talanos (support person).
  • Lance cavalry - Marcacos (cavalryman). Marcos is another word for the horse, more common in the island than in the continent.
  • Naked warrior (swordman) - Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter) or Excingos (attacker, who-get-out-to-fight). The Caledonians are described as using longswords and small shield and the Picts are described fighting naked.
  • War-Dogs - Agrocuna (battle/bloody/killer dog)
• City
  • Champion chariot warrior - Esseda (war chariot). The Britons use war chariots with a driver and an elite warrior, they throw javelins from it and continue the fight on foot (possibility for the unit to transport one infantryman ?)
  • Champion infantryman (sword or spear) - Argos (battle champion, noble), Donnouicos (noble warrior, noble fighter) or Adscoros (attendant, retainer).
  • Champion skirmisher infantryman - Caur (old-Irish for champion) or Art (old-Irish for champion and bear).  A propose an Irish elite javelinist, with a historical irish shortsword. If the double weapons switch is implanted, it could be an interesting unit. Polyvalent. 

 

[Stan`]

@borg- any thoughts on this ?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I might add that Irish unit to DE as a mercenary. Good idea.

Any idea what the Cav Killer special unit would look like?

[Stan`]

4 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I might add that Irish unit to DE as a mercenary. Good idea.

Any idea what the Cav Killer special unit would look like?

Some kind of spearman I guess. I know that in the middle ages they had some special spears to target horses, so I guess it's just an evolution ^^

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I might add that Irish unit to DE as a mercenary. Good idea. 

Cool ! You can look to the Lisnacrogher sword and to the Clonoura shield for references to help you.

 

1 hour ago, stanislas69 said:

Some kind of spearman I guess. I know that in the middle ages they had some special spears to target horses, so I guess it's just an evolution ^^ 

It could be a spear. Indeed, there are some hugh spearheads found for the La Tène Gauls, even of the size of a sword for one found in Belgium. But the Roman accounts talk about a sword as well. However, I don't think it is really important, what is their characteristics is their swift tactic unexpected by most of their enemy. Even by the Parthian Cataphracts. It should be hard to create a new animation if we want to follow the two descriptions of the Romans (dismounting and stabbing from below). Maybe keeping it simple for the moment with a lance-cavalry unit is enough.

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Any idea what the Cav Killer special unit would look like? 

It is there it got interesting. We can use this unit to introduce some germanic features from the Bastarnae, the Tencteri and the Batavi. For example, in the region of the Eburones/Batavi, there is a Celtic helmet of the type Port found there and a horn possibly from another helmet, probably posterior of the Gallic Wars:

There is the Bastarnae warrior with a bear cloak and claws necklace:

https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/2017/01/29/the-bear-claw-warrior-burial-of-a-celto-scythian-bastarnae-horseman-from-mana-orhei-district-moldava/

A bear cloak was found in south Britain as well, therefore it is possible that this custom was shared by a few Celts.

There is also the Gelduba/Krefeld helmet from the Batavi in the 1st century AD:

Then we can use a Gallic basis with Celtic cloth and celtic cape and adding a few germanic elements, maybe for the advanced and elite version if the unit is not a champion.

Edit: example:

Edited January 22, 2019 by Genava55

[borg-]

5 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

@borg- any thoughts on this ?

The biggest problem I have as a player and in the balancing mod is that gauls and brit do not have swordsmen/archer citizens.

The Gallic roster could be like this:

• Heavy infantryman (spearman or swordman) - Cingetos (generic term for warrior fighting in the front line).
• Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
• Slinger - Clucagretos (proto-indo-european reconstruction for slinger), Uassos (meaning servant, attested word) or Talanos (support person).
• Sword cavalry - Eporedos (cavalryman).
• Archer - Selgos (hunter) - Archers appeared only during the 1st Century BC, I suggest an unit available only in the 3rd phase but not an elite unit.
• Naked warrior (spearman) - Bariogaisatos (furious spearman). Fast and scary for fresh recruit (bonus against basic version of units ?) 
• Elite infantryman (swordman) - Soldurios/Soliduros (bodyguard), Ambactos (servant, protector, retainer), Adscoros (attendant, retainer).
• Elite horseman (sword or lance) - Comaterecos (patrician) or Uerouicos (victorious warrior, great fighter).
• Anti-cavalry special unit - Epouanos (horse-killer). Gallic horsemen auxiliaries are described as being efficient anti-cavalry against the Parthians at Carrhae. Eastern Celts, Belgians and Germans share this feature it seems. 

The Britonic roster could be like this:

• Heavy infantryman (spearman or swordman) - Catucos (combatant), Batacos (combatant) or Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter).
• Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
• Slinger - Clucagretos (proto-indo-european reconstruction for slinger), Uassos (meaning servant, attested word) or Talanos (support person).
• Lance cavalry - Marcacos (cavalryman). Marcos is another word for the horse, more common in the island than in the continent.
• Light cavalry with javelins - Gaisaredos (Javelin on horse, mounted), Gaisatoredos (Javelinist on horse), Adretos (who moves fast, attacker) or Bagauda (attested for horsemen as well during the Gallo-Roman rebellion).
• Naked warrior (swordman) - Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter) or Excingos (attacker, who-get-out-to-fight). The Caledonians are described as using longswords and small shield and fighting naked.
• Elite chariot warrior - Esseda (war chariot). The Britons use war chariots with a driver and an elite warrior, they throw javelins from it and continue the fight on foot (possibility for the unit to transport one infantryman ?)
• Elite noble infantryman (sword or spear) - Argos (battle champion, noble) or Donnouicos (noble warrior, noble fighter).
• Elite skirmisher infantryman - Caur (old-Irish for champion) or Art (old-Irish for champion and bear).  A propose an Irish elite javelinist, with a historical irish shortsword. If the double weapons switch is implanted, it could be an interesting unit. Polyvalent.

Gallic need spearman / Dont need three ranged units (only archers and jave), i would put slingers only to britons / Sword cav seems fine / Naked warrior, yes pls / Elite infantryman ok / Elite horseman (sword, if we will have a special unit probally is lancer cav);

Britonic need swordman / Two Ranged units ok (jave/slings) / Two cavs jave and lancer seems good / Naked swordman, yes pls / Elite Chariot ok / Elite infantryman (sword) / Elite jave ok.

I tried to differentiate with lancer/spearman for gallic and swordmans for britons.

I think all civilizations should have these 4 units as a base, infantry melee spearman/sword, infantry ranged archer/javelins (I do not know how much of this is historically correct). It would be great for us to balance.

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by borg-

[Genava55]

7 hours ago, borg- said:

The biggest problem I have as a player and in the balancing mod is that gauls and brit do not have swordsmen/archer citizens.

The Gallic roster could be like this:

• Heavy infantryman (spearman or swordman) - Cingetos (generic term for warrior fighting in the front line).
• Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
• Slinger - Clucagretos (proto-indo-european reconstruction for slinger), Uassos (meaning servant, attested word) or Talanos (support person).
• Sword cavalry - Eporedos (cavalryman).
• Archer - Selgos (hunter) - Archers appeared only during the 1st Century BC, I suggest an unit available only in the 3rd phase but not an elite unit.
• Naked warrior (spearman) - Bariogaisatos (furious spearman). Fast and scary for fresh recruit (bonus against basic version of units ?) 
• Elite infantryman (swordman) - Soldurios/Soliduros (bodyguard), Ambactos (servant, protector, retainer), Adscoros (attendant, retainer).
• Elite horseman (sword or lance) - Comaterecos (patrician) or Uerouicos (victorious warrior, great fighter).
• Anti-cavalry special unit - Epouanos (horse-killer). Gallic horsemen auxiliaries are described as being efficient anti-cavalry against the Parthians at Carrhae. Eastern Celts, Belgians and Germans share this feature it seems. 

The Britonic roster could be like this:

• Heavy infantryman (spearman or swordman) - Catucos (combatant), Batacos (combatant) or Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter).
• Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
• Slinger - Clucagretos (proto-indo-european reconstruction for slinger), Uassos (meaning servant, attested word) or Talanos (support person).
• Lance cavalry - Marcacos (cavalryman). Marcos is another word for the horse, more common in the island than in the continent.
• Light cavalry with javelins - Gaisaredos (Javelin on horse, mounted), Gaisatoredos (Javelinist on horse), Adretos (who moves fast, attacker) or Bagauda (attested for horsemen as well during the Gallo-Roman rebellion).
• Naked warrior (swordman) - Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter) or Excingos (attacker, who-get-out-to-fight). The Caledonians are described as using longswords and small shield and fighting naked.
• Elite chariot warrior - Esseda (war chariot). The Britons use war chariots with a driver and an elite warrior, they throw javelins from it and continue the fight on foot (possibility for the unit to transport one infantryman ?)
• Elite noble infantryman (sword or spear) - Argos (battle champion, noble) or Donnouicos (noble warrior, noble fighter).
• Elite skirmisher infantryman - Caur (old-Irish for champion) or Art (old-Irish for champion and bear).  A propose an Irish elite javelinist, with a historical irish shortsword. If the double weapons switch is implanted, it could be an interesting unit. Polyvalent.

Gallic need spearman / Dont need three ranged units (only archers and jave), i would put slingers only to britons / Sword cav seems fine / Naked warrior, yes pls / Elite infantryman ok / Elite horseman (sword, if we will have a special unit probally is lancer cav);

Britonic need swordman / Two Ranged units ok (jave/slings) / Two cavs jave and lancer seems good / Naked swordman, yes pls / Elite Chariot ok / Elite infantryman (sword) / Elite jave ok.

I tried to differentiate with lancer/spearman for gallic and swordmans for britons.

I think all civilizations should have these 4 units as a base, infantry melee spearman/sword, infantry ranged archer/javelins (I do not know how much of this is historically correct). It would be great for us to balance.

 

Thanks for your feedback. The Gallic archer can be an upgrade of the slingers, similar to the upgrade in one of the hellenistic faction. If it is not difficult to code. Like this there is only one long ranged unit and it follows an evolution backed by the historical records. 

If the Gauls have a basic foot swordsman and a basic sword cav and the Britons have a naked swordsman and a champion foot swordsman, is it ok? If not we can maybe put the caledonians as a normal swordsman units for the town phase and not as a naked special unit. Thus cheaper. 

For the Gallic cav champion, sword or lance are both possible. Historically they used both. 

 

[Genava55]

13 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Illustration of how I see these possibilities.

The Gallic roster V1:

 

  Hide contents

 

• Village
  • Spearman - Cingetos (generic term for warrior fighting in the front line).
  • Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
  • Slinger - Telmiuicos (slinger), Uassos (meaning servant/vassal) or Talanos (supportive person).
• Town
  • Sword cavalry - Eporedos (cavalryman).
  • Naked warrior (spearman) - Bariogaisatos (furious spearman). Fast and scary for fresh recruit (bonus against basic version of units ?) 
  • Anti-cavalry special unit - Epouanos (horse-killer).
• City
  • Champion swordman - Soldurios/Soliduros (bodyguard), Adscoros (attendant, retainer).
  • Champion lance horseman - Comaterecos (patrician) or Uerouicos (victorious warrior, great fighter).
  • Archer - Selgos (hunter) - Archers

 

The Gallic roster V2:

  Hide contents

• Village
  • Swordman - Cingetos (generic term for warrior fighting in the front line).
  • Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
• Town
  • Slinger - Telmiuicos (slinger), Uassos (meaning servant/vassal) or Talanos (supportive person).
  • Sword cavalry - Eporedos (cavalryman).
  • Naked warrior (spearman) - Bariogaisatos (furious spearman). Fast and scary for fresh recruit (bonus against basic version of units ?) 
• City
  • Champion lance horseman - Comaterecos (patrician) or Uerouicos (victorious warrior, great fighter).
  • Archer - Selgos (hunter) - Archers
  • Anti-cavalry special unit - Epouanos (horse-killer).
  • Spearman - Ambactos (who-is-around, attested word from Caesar for Gallic retinue and clients).

The Brittonic roster:

  Reveal hidden contents

• Village
  • Spearman  - Catucos (combatant), Batacos (combatant) or Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter).
  • Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
  • Light cavalry with javelins - Gaisaredos (Javelin on horse, mounted), Gaisatoredos (Javelinist on horse), Adretos (who moves fast, attacker) or Bagauda (attested for horsemen as well during the Gallo-Roman rebellion).
• Town
  • Slinger - Telmiuicos (slinger), Uassos (meaning servant, attested word) or Talanos (support person).
  • Lance cavalry - Marcacos (cavalryman). Marcos is another word for the horse, more common in the island than in the continent.
  • Naked warrior (swordman) - Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter) or Excingos (attacker, who-get-out-to-fight). The Caledonians are described as using longswords and small shield and the Picts are described fighting naked.
  • War-Dogs - Agrocuna (battle/bloody/killer dog)
• City
  • Champion chariot warrior - Esseda (war chariot). The Britons use war chariots with a driver and an elite warrior, they throw javelins from it and continue the fight on foot (possibility for the unit to transport one infantryman ?)
  • Champion infantryman (sword or spear) - Argos (battle champion, noble), Donnouicos (noble warrior, noble fighter) or Adscoros (attendant, retainer).
  • Champion skirmisher infantryman - Caur (old-Irish for champion) or Art (old-Irish for champion and bear).  A propose an Irish elite javelinist, with a historical irish shortsword. If the double weapons switch is implanted, it could be an interesting unit. Polyvalent. 

 

Thus the second version for the Gallic roster, with a basic swordsman infantry have the preference?