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DarcReaver last won the day on January 7

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About DarcReaver

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  1. In theory you have multiple approaches: Option 1) You make slingers and archers the same role (ranged anti inf) with only different stats. And each civ only gets the type of unit they used the most - i.e. Egypt and Persians used slingers, while other factions use archers exclusively. It's then pretty much just a skin difference, a bit like the difference of Meso Civs in AoE having eagle warriors while regular civs have scout cav. Option 2) You differentiate slingers and archers by stats : Both are available to most factions by default. slingers have high damage and good accuracy on shorter ranges and relatively low rate of fire. .They also are fast, but have low health - this makes them good early raiding infantry to do hit & run. Archers have lower damage, but good accuracy on all ranges, fire faster and deal damage more consistent and have better armor/health than slingers while being slower. If you further out this system you could apply a modifier for ranged unit rate of fire with its shooting range. In CoH you have 4 different combat distances, in which you can modify accuracy, penetration and rate of fire of a gun. I.e. infantry rifles take 0.95sec. to aim at a target at 35m but only 0.6 at 6m. Option 3) You differentiate multiple archer/slinger classes (this option profits from battalions) Slingers are on par with basic archers, the characteristics are similar to option 2. But you also have certain advanced archer/slinger units that players of certain factions can deploy. Ie. egypt have basic slingers instead of normal archers, but they can deploy composite archers later in the game. You can then train a battalion of Slingers, consisting of maybe 10 Slingers that move and fight in a loose formation. Archers come in larger numbers per battalion - maybe 20?- and fight is close formations. Also Archers could have a "rain arrows" ability that allows them to barrage a certain area with fire arrows to scare or instantly burn enemy units ("weapon critical damage"). Slingers could have a chance to stun enemy units upon hitting them from close range. Some factions also have access to special slinger units/upgrades or special archers that allow unique tactics compared to other factions. And battalions allow to either make larger amounts of cheap "trash archers" or a bunch of elite archers, depending on civ and map choice. This version would be mostly interesting if you can apply armortypes to units and add flanking damage. Slingers would be used to "dance around" enemy units, trying to hit them from side/rear. While archers can inflict damage more consistently. from a "closed frontline". This sort of reflects the characteristics of both unit types more accurately, but is certainly the hardest option. Option 4) You use multiple archer/slinger classes and use them regardless as assets for the game, leaving it up to the player which units to use. Stats like dmg, rate of fire etc. are done for each unit similar to option 2. This is the version currently present and has large drawbacks, esp. in terms of inner faction balance. This is prety much the easiest along with option 2. There probably are even more options, those were just some I could think of in the nick of time.
  2. Nowadays there is AoE 2 HD, AoM : EE and AoE 2 DE in the makings you already have 2 superior clones of AoE 2 on the market, supported and published by major game companies along with superior graphics. So there no longer is a need for another AoE clone since the base products are vastly superior in every aspect at this point. But at least "we want to make 0 AD an Age of Empires clone" would state a goal/vision for the finished game. If you cannot compete with ideas of your own - steal them and work on improving small details to smoothen the template. Altough I sort of doubt you're capable of that because it could have happened 10 years ago/the core gameplay could've been centered around this. I'm also quite sure the base community would be larger by a multitude if that was the case. AoE 2 HD has a player base of more than 10k people at all times. about the "community enjoying the game" I heavily suspect that most of the people "enjoy the game" for reasons that have nothing to do with the gameplay itself. They either like that their favorite faction is in the game or that you have unit Y available, not because the game itself is compelling. As an example for external feedback I only ever saw people on YT creating content for 0 AD who said "alright this looks pretty" "okay some XXX here and there", then some battling/skirmishing and afterwards I've never seen them play the game again on their channel. Sure - some players only present unique videos per game, but there are others who have a pool of games to choose from and play those from time to time during their streams/videos. For all those "pool players" 0 ad never made it into their game pool, for reasons unknown (or maybe known?). As a random sidenote: my RTS mates which I invited to play 0 ad with me all stated "oh well it looks nice but it's boring".
  3. It's the core game mechanics that are lacking. The balance itself being bad is just another minor side effect of that. If the core game is bad, a good balance can only improve the game to become sub-par/mediocre at best. Good core game mechanics/features with a bad balance can be fixed with stats changes to become enjoyable. @Feldfeld It's not about hesitating. It's that noone has a clue how the game is supposed to be in the first place. That's what is missing. If you have an idea what you're working towards you can adjust the components necessary. That way you automatically start the balancing process. Because every new feature along the way towards the goal, the finished product, serves a purpose and can be balanced around that purpose. BUT If you don't know where you're going you end up with a couple of loose ends that do not fit together - which we have right now. And balance complaints will always be there, no matter what happens to the game. Even in chess there are people who complain that white is better than black because white always starts the match.
  4. Well, the main question always was : how is the game supposed to be played? All the current features ingame are not glued together. They're taken from AoE II and other games and combined roughly to represent "something" which isn't clear. Gameplay balancing can only work when the game is in a stable version and the basic gameplay decisions are set. Which includes (simplified): - how much is the balance economy/warfare (in terms of player micro) - how detailed is the economy setup/how do map control elements work - how much is tactical/strategical micro - how is the basic counter system/tech tree (shared tech tree or unique tech trees for each faction) - which factions are included and how unique are they designed - etc. I just pulled those out of thin air, there are probably a lot of other points with even higher priority EDIT: Nescio put some nice points: edit2: these @#$%ing quote mechanics, half my post is gone... fck this.
  5. Hmm looks liek the quote system got f'ed up. I'll again reply in the post directly. I stated that there are significant differences between the design document and the current "game" that is presented and published. I proved my points multiple times and stated options to put the game in line with the existing design document. I also proposed that a game design dev (or at least someone familiar with game designing) should be included in the team who actually is responsible for the balancing and design aspects of the game. Because that's what the game needs. A proper design followed by some intensive care from balance testers prior to release, instead of fiddling with randomly setup numbers and call that "balance fixes". I also stated that the design document should be revised to actually provide a unique vision. Noone needs AoE II clones when there is AoE 2 HD and AoE 1 DE which provide the same, but better. Afaik no dev actually plays the game at all. That's how enjoyable the game is in it's current form. Not even the game makers want to play it.
  6. I answered directly in the post. Though I can understand quite a few of your points, I don't really get the whole development process as a whole tbh. There is no point of balance changes because there is no coherent gameplay in the alpha. This was discussed numerous times in the past already. As long as key gameplay features do not work it's only wasted time that can be spent on other, more useful stuff. Like making planned features work. "Reluctancy to commit balance changes is attributable to many reasons, getting artists or programmers to commit balance changes is probably not the most time-efficient or quality assuring procedure and the reluctancy would be justified in that case." Which is why I proposed that you should hire a lead gameplay developer who works on the design doc combined with changing gameplay related stuff. That was almost 2 years ago now.
  7. It would be wise before investing large amounts of time into this system to revise the resource system first. I.e. check whether resources are necessary or not, if resources should behave differently (i.e. Food being a pop cap element with a fixed income ratio instead of having to build houses etc.). If everything should stay the way it is the proposed ideas are great of course. The mine shafts look really awesome.
  8. It's a bug/exploit in the first place, but it also IS a skill that has to be learned. However it's toxic for the game because it's not a fun game mechanic, especially for the receiving player. This exploit can also be put in the category of "unnecessary micro click tricks" that the game makers want to avoid at all costs. That's why the exploit should be fixed. Also it's not worth to make a game room rule about this. If you add that you can just aswell allow/disallow all other game bugs - like bug walls, unit collision and other stuff.
  9. While the idea behind this is kinda okay, this adds a lot of more unnecessary micro to the game because it's needlessly complicated. A much less complicated version of this is that you add builder units to the game that build resource camps. From those camps workers automatically emerge and start collecting the resource the camp is meant for. The number of workers per drop site can be increased by buying/training more workers up to a maxiumum of X per drop site. As you can see this solution is much cleaner, more automated and easier to understand. However, the "call to arms" feature for resource camps is not a good idea in general. If you have self defending economy you make raiding and direct combat less effecting. Since early raids cannot take out the economy there's a lot of "units dance around resource spots" until a very late stage of the game.
  10. So Citizens are villagers that serve war from time to time. Fine. Then the current concept still is crap. It doesn't even have to do with imagination. The system doesn't remotely reflect that. Resource gatherer 90% of the time and 10% going to war means that the citizen should be unarmed all game long except for a handful of times when the base it attacked. The concept that military units permanently harvest resources is simply bad. I have named numerous reasons why that is. Either timed option to turn villagers into militia for defense or upgrade option to turn a villager into a soldier for a resource cost. or remove it altogether (which is the best option to avoid players spamming villagers from his buildings, running them to the enemy base and transform them into soldiers of various kinds to counter enemy units). btw that's how a defensive mechanism for a villager/resource gather can look like via ability (obviously this game was some comp stomper noob in wc3 so the skill/execution is bad, but you can see the game mechanic):
  11. Yes. And before determining which resources are used there needs to be decided which ones actually should be in the game. About sustainable logging: Unless there is a reason why the forests on the map should be removable (i.e. to provide building space) there's no need to clear forests. This also depends alot on the planned average game length and the amount of resource spots per player. Thorfinn stated the unreal Citizen Soldiers first, I just took over his statement. However I support that opinion, it IS unhistorical the way it currently is. - No ancient soldier ever chopped wood while carrying a Sarissa/sword/armour/bow/shield (just like you said) - most Citizens indeed had a job, but only few worked as farmers, miners or woodchoppers, especially in cities.They were fishermen, salesmen, blacksmiths, smelters, stonemasons etc. They created trading goods for sale or use, but not for the government to supply their armies. That's what tax money was for. But... why? What's the point? Why do you train military units as resource gatherer (that in fact are no military units because they have no weapons) to pick up weapons for defense and then return to gathering resources again when the enemy is gone? Why not simply make automated, node based resource production and players get to train basic troops (low tier) and professional troops (high tier)? Why is it so important to keep a crappy feature?
  12. If gathers should not be able to repel attackers then WHY make military units that can attack gather resources in the first place? That's complete nonsense. Military units are meant to fight. That's why they are military units. This is not a city building simulator but an RTS. So, again - why should citizen soldiers gather resources? When I look over the boards I see dozens of topics about historical accuracy for buildings, uniforms, weapons, unit types and so on. Then why is one of the main components of the game (economy) based on fantasy? Yes there can be more subtle differences between soldiers and gatherers. For example you can give gatherers an ability to defend themselves (Town Bell, Call to Arms/Militia for a period of time, hiding in buildings, permanently transform them into a military unit for a resource cost etc.). But what's the point to have fighting gatherers and gathering fighters? Either remove the split altogether or split economy units and military units but don't mix both. There are dozens of unique and working gameplay concepts for RTS resource gathering (DoW franchise, BFME franchise, C&C red alert, C&C Generals, Warcraft 3, Rise of Nations, Hearts of Iron etc etc.) that can be utilized instead of using a 15 year old modding reference "to make it different from AoE II" without putting any thought in the system itself and how teh game requires it to work. Let's summarize: - citizen soldiers are mostly unrealistic from a historical viewpoint - citizen soldiers cause trouble with resource balance (each second a military unit walks/attacks/chases enemy units instead of collecting resources = lost resources for the military unit owner) - citizen soldiers cause trouble with attacking/defending (resource gatherer can protect itself) - citizen soldiers are annoying to micro after an attack (since military usually forms up for defense you have to readjust every soldier back to his original task) So, apart from "it's different system from AoE" is an advantage of this system? All the issues can easily be avoided by admitting that it's a crappy concept and start over with a different concept that actually makes sense. Just to name some examples: 1) Scrap military/economy split by either removing citizen soldiers OR gatherers with a new resource system. Possible options: based on map control: player who controls areas on the map gains resources automatically - settlements, quarries, mines etc. are on the map to be captured and produce resources automatically (DoW/CoH system) buildings that gather based on the terrain, i.e. you can build quarries next to stone resource spots, and a limited amount of workers can gather resources from there , either automatically or trained by the player from the building (Warcraft III/Starcraft/C&C Generals system) Farms/quarries/mines can be build anywhere but require to be spaced out, else they produce less resources (BFME system) You simply gain resources over time automatically based upon the amount of cities you have (hearts of iron) 2) You stick with the original AoE II/AoM approach. For this the game needs to be slowed down. DRASTICALLY. Having a detailed economy means players need time to plan. No planning time means it's too chaotic to have fun. The more the game is based on fighting the more automated the economy has to be. Managing 4 or 5 resources, hundreds of single workers and military at the speed of starcraft is bad. 3) You think of an entirely new concept. However since the last time this happened Citizen soldiers were introduced I doubt that's a good idea...
  13. Yes and there is a good reason that military and economy is segregated. If you have 10 soldiers that gather 100 food/minute, each enemy villager/soldier costs 50 food, And you have 30 seconds to move to enemy base you have following equation: 10 x 100 x 0.5 = 500 food = attacker lost the resources equal to 10 villagers from running soldiers away from his own food sources over to enemy base. So the attacker has to kill at least 11 villagers to get an advantage from attacking. If you expand the equation, the enemy can use his 10 soldiers to gather for 30 seconds aswell. So enemy gets +500 food, attacker gets -500, means 1000 food difference even without any fight happening. Considering it's likely you get losses (because enemy military units can defend themselves while gathering) it's even more stupid to attack. So, in short the concept is broken. That's why proper RTS don't do it. And 0 AD just does it because it once was a mod for AoE II and someone thought it's a cool idea to divide "villagers male/female (only optical difference)" into "Citizen Soldiers" and "women" so it is different from AoE II.
  14. Which brings us straight back to the initial OP post about the manspam trains on the map that make managing groups/formations tedious due to constant dying and replacement of fallen units.
  15. Indeed, because I'm no programmer, unfortunately. else I would've helped out in that regard more for sure. And about the links from (-_-) Well thing is that the game isn't even remotely similar to the existing game design doc, that's why I compared the current game with the doc and pointed out various flaws about the whole thing in part II of the analysis. Also the 2nd post about that "written story" about how to play 0 ad is hella weird... I do agree that some points about my doc need tweaking, but without some true vision there's no way to actually improve everything. From my current perspective I would rework the pop cap mechanics and food gathering/resource gathering stuff to a more automated system to focus more on fighting. btw @stanislas69 who is working on the design doc?
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