Introducing the Official community mod for Alpha 26

[Darkcity]

The problem with heros bonus is not that they are terrible but how 0ad is played. Example this one.

6 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Pericles and Themistocles update

Not needed--no one makes these heroes 

How many players play water maps? For the long time I have been playing; I have played water maps in team games <1% of time. 

Everyone wants heros to give armor and damage bonus or unit spam benefits. I'm not going to write use cases and explain why other heros have differnet bonus and their usecases becasue it will be ignored or no one will read.

But if someone wants to comment on hero bonus, try to get out of mainland map, and try gameplay that suits hero condition and you will realize the benefit of the bonus. 

If you test the same and don't think it is worth it then maybe change the same.

[Dizaka]

There is an idle counter for units.  There really should be a garrison counter for units too.  One garrison counter for arrow generation garrisons and another for non arrow generation garrisons.

[LetswaveaBook]

13 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Speed up rams by improving the turn rate and acceleration of siege units

improve ram pathing/usability

I thought they were supposed to be rams, not Ferrari cars.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

7 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Not needed--no one makes these heroes

what is this logic lmao. 

@Darkcity, @real_tabasco_sauce's solution to the naval hero was to add a bonus that works on land too, so that the hero can be used in either situation so that map generation won't make the hero totally useless.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Darkcity said:

How many players play water maps? For the long time I have been playing; I have played water maps in team games <1% of time. 

Everyone wants heros to give armor and damage bonus or unit spam benefits. I'm not going to write use cases and explain why other heros have differnet bonus and their usecases becasue it will be ignored or no one will read.

But if someone wants to comment on hero bonus, try to get out of mainland map, and try gameplay that suits hero condition and you will realize the benefit of the bonus. 

If you test the same and don't think it is worth it then maybe change the same.

the ship benefits Themistocles gave before these changes were miniscule. Notice that the updated Themistocles isn't a damage/armor hero (nor is Pericles, at least directly) 

1. Ship discount is actually meaningful, also has effect on ship gameplay.

2. Wall discount is designed to increase the use of the Athenian Long Walls tech, which could be interesting in some games.

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

u mean this? How is this worse than what they have?

 

Pericles temple cost goes from a 25% discount to a 15% discount. 

Themistocles goes from a 50% speed bonus to a 15% speed bonus. 

I misread some other ones, so that's my fault. 

But like @Darkcity said, a lot of the problems with one of the heroes results from the prevailing non-naval gameplay. 

After a closer look, these may be fine. But I don't know. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

23 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Pericles temple cost goes from a 25% discount to a 15% discount. 

theres now no such temple cost discount.

23 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Themistocles goes from a 50% speed bonus to a 15% speed bonus. 

This is for ALL ships versus the single ship that the hero is garrisoned in.

23 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

But like @Darkcity said, a lot of the problems with one of the heroes results from the prevailing non-naval gameplay. 

right, thats why that hero has a potentially powerful non-naval bonus as well. BTW, I have put accurate information everywhere: gitlab, description, and screenshots of in-game tooltips, no need to guess.

 

The whole point of this patch is to just increase the usefulness of these heroes, they will not necessarily compete with the top 5 heroes.

Edited October 11, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

theres now no such temple cost discount.

It is a 25% stone discount and stone is the only res. So it is a decrease from 25% res discount. 

Fair point re Themistocles. 

It's better than I thought at a glance (mostly because I misread it at first). I wouldn't mind if the proposal was implemented. I'm not excited about it (because like you say these aren't meant to be great heroes), but I think it'll be a small improvement. I would love if these were modified to make Athens' (or any other civ's) heroes as good as Ptol or Brits. 

[Kampot]

Why not make 4 heros but only 3 will be available in current game - player can select them (no need any specific configuration simply make all of them available but max used can be just 3) where naval one will be most likely used in naval maps (barely played) and other one will finaly get some sense.

There is huge diff between heros per civ. This should be addressed...

[hyperion]

13 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Move tier 2 blacksmith technologies to Town Phase

Yes. P2 is currently a transition phase with little actual fighting. P3 incentive still exists for eco/final blacksmith reasons

So to make the issue worse, we move some of the few leftover useful bits of p2 to p1.

A player should be forced to phase up with around 50 pop to be competitive, current p1 is simply broken.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 hours ago, Kampot said:

Why not make 4 heros but only 3 will be available in current game - player can select them (no need any specific configuration simply make all of them available but max used can be just 3) where naval one will be most likely used in naval maps (barely played) and other one will finaly get some sense.

There is huge diff between heros per civ. This should be addressed...

Right. We can have any number of heroes available to choose from, but can have a match limit of 3. Miltiades and/or Aristides can be available as Hoplite-centric options for Athenians. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Philip the Swaggerless]

16 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

I would go slow. This alpha isn't fully understood yet. And introducing a bunch of new changes will make understanding this alpha and the new changes very difficult.

Yes.  My understanding is that the purpose of this mod is to fix things that are technically broken (rice upgrades) and make balance tweaks.  Not change the game play of the alpha.

22 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Speed up rams by improving the turn rate and acceleration of siege units

improve ram pathing/usability

I think it is good that rams have slow turn rate and acceleration.  In this alpha it is harder for melee units to attack fleeing units.  They approach, slow down to attack, but sometimes do not attack because the fleeing unit maintains it's speed.  I don't think unprotected rams should be able to escape the enemy.  (Unless they are my rams of course). 

22 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Pericles and Themistocles update

see aforementioned auras and screenshots.

These seem fine to me.  Because they are never used anyways and the bonuses they would get are not top tier, I think it is okay to add to this mod.

22 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Rebalance healers by making them cheaper

I don't know...  Maybe if coupled with a decrease in the rank up bonuses.  They become incredibly strong at rank 3 with techs.  I'd probably leave it as it is.  I don't think this is needed to balance.

 

22 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Move tier 2 blacksmith technologies to Town Phase

self explanatory

This seems beyond the mod's scope, if I've understood it correctly.

22 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Nerf heroes Iphicrates and Ptolemy

Iphicrates gives +2 armor of all types instead of +3, and ptolemy -35% merc cost to -35% merc train time.

Iphicrates is very strong, however his bonus is a formation bonus.  That means that if the enemy targets him and you try to run him away, the formation loses the bonus.  Aura bonus heroes can flee or stand behind all the units, and the army retains their bonus as long as they are in range.  Therefore if Iphicrates' bonus is reduced I think it should become an aura bonus.  However, I kind of like the uniqueness of him having a strong formation bonus, as it is.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

7 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

It is a 25% stone discount and stone is the only res. So it is a decrease from 25% res discount. 

my point is the discount on temples is completely removed. Instead there is 2 bonuses for pericles:

1) Soldiers, Ships, Buildings, and Siege within 60m give the enemies no loot (including xp) and buildings +50% capture points.

2) technology discount of 10% and faster research time.

It may not be super strong, but 1) is definitely a unique and interesting option for gameplay.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I think the community mod has been great so far, so I think we should take it slow from here and gradually expand the scope of the mod to see what works well, being careful with gameplay changes. I think after these few ones go in we should look at adding a few other team bonuses besides rome, iber, ptol, gaul, kush, and mace. It could potentially be very fun to add these to civs that currently have a negligible team bonus.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 18/06/2022 at 12:58 AM, wraitii said:

To summarise: we'll give you the keys to the car to make A26 a more fun game. By the time A27 comes, we can hopefully use your work (and our own) as a good template for a better game out of the box.

@Philip the Swaggerless my understanding was that the mod would contain balancing solutions and some content/gameplay features (aka fun)

There are parts of the game that are underdeveloped like some civ bonuses/team bonuses which could make the game more interesting.

For example, how about we come up with a seleucid civ bonus? (i guess the heroes from cc is now a civ bonus)

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

For example, how about we come up with a seleucid civ bonus? (i guess the heroes from cc is now a civ bonus)

The heroes were moved from the Fortress to the CC because at the time the Fortress had 5 champions, 3 heroes, and 2 siege engines. In other words, overloaded. Since then, siege were moved to Arsenals and War Elephants and Chariots moved elsewhere too. The original reason for the hero move is no longer there.

[Player of 0AD]

How to install this mod? Extracted into mod folder: Doesn't work. Cloned into mod folder: Doesn't work.

[Stan`]

Just now, Player of 0AD said:

How to install this mod? Extracted into mod folder: Doesn't work. Cloned into mod folder: Doesn't work.

Use the mod download from inside the game?

[chrstgtr]

6 hours ago, hyperion said:

So to make the issue worse, we move some of the few leftover useful bits of p2 to p1.

A player should be forced to phase up with around 50 pop to be competitive, current p1 is simply broken.

Town phase is p2. This will move one forge tech from p3 to p2. p1 will have 0 techs, p2 will have 2 new techs, and p3 will have 1 new tech.

Making p2 stronger makes p1 weaker.  

[Player of 0AD]

7 minutes ago, Stan&#x60; said:

Use the mod download from inside the game?

Ty, but isn't there another way? mod.io collects a lot of data.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Right. We can have any number of heroes available to choose from, but can have a match limit of 3. Miltiades and/or Aristides can be available as Hoplite-centric options for Athenians. 

this is good output. It's a good idea, it's the best way to solve it.

[Stan`]

35 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

Ty, but isn't there another way? mod.io collects a lot of data.

Installing it manually should work. Maybe you didn't place it correctly ?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Player of 0AD said:

Ty, but isn't there another way? mod.io collects a lot of data.

if you clone the repository and copy just community-mod into the mods folder it should work, just don't include put the whole repository with README etc.

This is how I got the in-game screenshots of the heroes I updated, also how I know they work fine.

[Fabius]

On 08/10/2022 at 8:25 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

here is the branch for athen heroes.

https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/tree/athen_heroes

my merge request: https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests/7#notes

It seems the loot changes for Pericles are not working as well as the wall cost changes for Themosticles

I will work on them, but they seem awesome on paper.

multiply by 0 issue fixed by multiplying by 0.001

 

@Fabius i'm not sure. I guess it would be like the trumpet units from Gauls? Because the centurions were basically officers, right?

The idea i had in mind was taking the concept of the Han government minister and applying it to centurions. So possible benefits could be a small building speed bonus for citizen soldiers specifically, a small attack bonus, a movement speed boost. Stat wise the centurion could essentially be a champion or somewhere between an elite swordsmen and a champion. Likewise limited in number, maybe if we could have the Castrum moved to P1 or P2 we could add them to the training roster.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@Fabius I Iike the general idea, but I think it requires new unit models. As for the building to train them, fortress could work, maybe barracks. I think a p2 fortress honestly wouldn't be all that bad, but others might want them trained from CC or barracks.

It would also be wise to avoid too much overlap with heroes because of additional stacking of bonuses. Movement speed is good, building, and some minor attack bonus sounds interesting

@chrstgtr what should be the % increase in house, storehouse, and farmstead building time? I think 40% would be too much. Maybe 33.3% more so 40 seconds build time?

maybe @vinme has an idea here too?

I think this should still be a net buff for ptol, just not quite as OP as it is currently.