Smurf tag.

[Yekaterina]

cd GOAT/

sudo rm -rf *

[rossenburg]

if @G.O.A.T is not sanafur / alocaloc and yet still  sanafur / alocaloc added in the smurf listing then why accuse @G.O.A.T as  sanafur / alocaloc?. Perhaps if @G.O.A.T is  sanafur / alocaloc ( which i dunno ) then he should be on top of the list cause he is fooling everyone.

[Yekaterina]

1. I think GOAT might not be sanafur or AlocAcoc, he could be another fulltime troll.

2. GOAT 's smurf list contains some facts but also many errors.

3. rm -rf is the lobby account of distrotube, also the Linux command to forcefully remove directories.

4. I haven't been online in the past 3 weeks, so anyone who claimed to be me was an imposter.

5. Reza-maths has access to many of my accounts

6. Join 0kd discord server to find out more.

7. STOP PLAYING AND MOURN FOR THE DEATH OF OUR QUEEN!

[LienRag]

I know this is wildly off-topic but it would really be nice to have a Smurf mod, maybe based on the "Schtroumpfissime" events and weaponry ?

[Yekaterina]

This morning I received this message when  I was eating breakfast:

 

So I checked up on GOAT and this is what I saw:

@Player of 0AD My sincere condolences

 

@Stan` please remove this stupid list somehow, it's full of nonsense

[Player of 0AD]

I'm not Phyzic, but if I ignore that claim I like the list. Please don't remove it

[Guest]

On 13/10/2022 at 5:39 PM, Player of 0AD said:

I'm not Phyzic, but if I ignore that claim I like the list. Please don't remove it

I don't see why we should make an exception for you. There is already one as @G.O.A.T isn't in the list too...

You're Phyzic now @Player of 0AD

More seriously this wall of shame must end and we should rather all be scared of this kind of toxic mindset.

Edited October 15, 2022 by rm -rf

[Player of 0AD]

16 minutes ago, rm -rf said:

More seriously this wall of shame must end and we should rather all be scared of this kind of toxic mindset.

No. The smurfing must end, and the list has  far more advantages than disadvantages

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

No. The smurfing must end, and the list has  far more advantages than disadvantages

If 0ad promotes toxicity ... what else can I do Phyzic?

[Philip the Swaggerless]

31 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

No. The smurfing must end, and the list has  far more advantages than disadvantages

Yes.

Just now, rm -rf said:

If 0ad promotes toxicity ... what else can I do Phyzic?

What "toxicity"?

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

Yes.

What "toxicity"?

@Philip the SwaggerlessI take it as second degree.

I could understand it helps a few BIG EGO players to say they lose because of multiple accounts..

The sad reality if some TGs are broken first because of many fully obsolete and incorrect ratings ( @G.O.A.T nothing about the fact you're falsy rated 1500 ?) and second, more important, because of a full misunderstanding about ELO/Glicko. Only 2000+ would play all games constantly at their levels. Under, there is a strong deviation, all can underperform or do mistakes which can cost the TG.

I would love to see less network lags, less private data captures (-> RGPD), and less wall of shames.

And @G.O.A.Tassuming his responsibilities.

Edited October 15, 2022 by rm -rf

[Philip the Swaggerless]

3 hours ago, rm -rf said:

@Philip the SwaggerlessI take it as second degree.

I don't understand your meaning.  Are you saying you are referring to toxicity that is of a lesser severity, like the 2nd degree murder is extreme than 1st degree murder?

Incidentally, without question, the most toxic behavior I've seen in lobby or in games is by players that I know have multiple accounts.

3 hours ago, rm -rf said:

I could understand it helps a few BIG EGO players to say they lose because of multiple accounts..

You're making personal attacks about people here, right after complaining about toxicity.  I don't mind losing I just prefer better games.

The lack of accurate ratings means that frequent players can best balance the game by knowing who the players are.

I would be happy to see improvements in ELO. I imagine that if ELO worked perfectly here, smurfs & new players would be filtered out of 1500+ level games.  Would not the smurf then trash a bunch of low players to get a high rating?  Or maybe they would conclude it is not worth the effort.

What is annoying about it to me is that there is no need for smurfing.  If you make a new account because you lost a password (and for some reason cannot have it reset by the staff) and people ask you if you have an alternate account, just tell them what the other account name is.  If you don't want people to predict your strategy, maybe try a new one?  That is a big part of the fun of RTS games.

[Guest]

Euh @Philip the Swaggerless please read carefully my sentences. Only "I take it as second degree." is addressed to you.

The remain part is a general statement not a personal attack - see it's a new paragraph - then your answers to it are just pure sophism at least in my mind.

Yes there is far too much ego in many so-called PRO players. I clearly assume this sentence. Else this topic would have ended very quickly and the @G.O.A.Tprofile closed.

[Philip the Swaggerless]

 

17 minutes ago, rm -rf said:

Euh @Philip the Swaggerless please read carefully my sentences. Only "I take it as second degree." is addressed to you.

I literally don't understand what you are trying to say.  English is my first language.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Philip the Swaggerless

[Darkcity]

I think we are not looking at the issue in correct manner. First of all, the reason why this feature was created

1. To stop pro players messing up games for new playes as they disguised as new player and ruin game for them.
2. As for pro players, they want to have balanced Team game or 1v1 match.

By knowing who this player actually is, people and host can decide about the player. Now,

1. If player forgot the password and created a new account, player will have no issue on telling who he is. It is actually good for him that people can still remeber by his old account and he can play as known player.
2. If player is not comfirtable with revealing his old account that means he wants to remian as smurf in the game.

By releaving the alternative accounts this feature achieve its goal somehow. Although it might have following issue.

1. Wrongly tagging players and so on. - Something that feature will need improvemet and need input from community. And if players think that they are affected by worngly tagging as different player then we might want to explore alternative approach.
2. Using some data which shouldn't be used (maybe, i don't know) - Something that @Stan` can check.

To conclude: This feature/mod is giving the solition for which this thread is created. If there is something wrong in the solution then that can discussed and corrected accordingly.

[guerringuerrin]

In other thread I asked @G.O.A.T to remove xaiki and wilsonwilson as my smurf names since they are not me. He didnt answer neither removed. 
I repeat it again in loud voice: THIS ACCOUNTS ARE NOT MINE and if someone keeps accusing me of that he must SHOW ME THE PROOF AS HE SHOULD DO IN ANY CIVILIZED ENVIROMENT

It seems like anybody con acuse someone of smurf without giving those proof and we are ok with it. Not a big deal, right? Well, is it a big deal to me.

I've being force to answer questions of 0ad friends asking me if I was using this 2nd and 3rd account. People who I respect and I care about what they think about me are now wonder if i'm not fooling them with lies. And I can notice how the paranoia atmosphere is getting bigger. I don't want to be dramatic. I still think this is just a minor issue and it's better not to give him too much attention or ourself will get it bigget than it is. But this questions happened. And I feel bad for that.

Also this @G.O.A.T sent me a private message with "smurf tag" as topic in a clear reference to my intervention in this thread with only a banana. In a clear intention of harras me or being rude because my way of think about this  "big issue".
And then he didn't tell me anything else.

Also who is this @G.O.A.T in lobby? It seems he can use a disguise but we can't? What rights he has to do that? Maybe he uses this nickname, I never saw him online. So I won't go further and ask what is his real name on Lobby. Or maybe I should apply the same principle and ask him to prove everybody he is not using multiple accounts.

Now I'm being forced to prove myself as a non smurfer and not the other way around. I don't know how we turned around the Principle of Innocence and here some people believe they have the right to accuse someone and -again- not give ANY PROOF to sustain his accusations.

Ddosing has being a worse problem and I know few people getting involve and working hard trying to catch ddosers or even creating mechanism to avoid it. And most of the time these people were very careful in terms of sharing his suspicions with everybody in clear responsabile attitude about his claims and actions. I also  never seen a ddos wall of shame...

About the big issue for the pro players. I want to ask you in good faith. How many times you have lost rating in 1v1 against a smurf? How many games were ruined because one smurf came and turn upside down the balance you tried to make?

I'm sure most of us needs just a few games, three as much to realize someone is a smurf. Most of the case we doesn't even need to play to realize. We see one new name coming to our game and we can ask one or two simple questions to realize if this new name is brand new or if he has experience. 

Some people say this is an issue for new players because they are deceived by pro smurf who ruin his games. I don't believe this is an issue for new players. They mostly are full of energy and wants to learn.  U know what is a big issue for new players? Harrasing, bullying, being called "noob, cosmic, piece of sh*t, full-trash" U know what is an issue for many no white-caucasic-european-hegemonic people? Being called favela, banana republic, sudaka, nig*g*a: being called spaniard sh*t, for example. Xenophofia, toxicity, ddosing.

Those are big issues if we want to get involve with something. And I can keep on with the big issues: performance problems, lag problem, convincing people to use community-mod that we all know the benefits it has; lack of developers getting involved in the projects; whole game balance problems. 

Then, if some of you wants to go further with this mod, and thinks this could be a great help to improve balancing and all you have said in this thread. All right, go on, this is a free world.

BUT I need to ask you all: don't acuse me or anybody of being a smurf, or having another accounts without giving proof. It's not right and it's unfair to force people to prove his innocence.
Now I ask particulary to @G.O.A.T to remove those claims about me or to show the proof to everybody, here in the thread, as he should do in any modern trial.

Now, because @G.O.A.T forced me to do this I will show you the few things I collected to prove I'm not WilsonWilson:
Needless to say I will do the same the day I see xaiki.
I think this is enough prove to ask @G.O.A.T to remove his claims. Are you agree @Philip the Swaggerless, @Darkcity @Player of 0AD, @Sevda, @Dakara?

Also I wish you to know I don't have nothing personal against any of you or anyone who finds this mod a good idea. Particulary you @Philip the Swaggerless you were always kind to me and I never saw you behaving toxic or something like that. I'm telling this to you just in case. Same applys to @Darkcity and @Player of 0AD they also teach and give advices in a good manner, but just in case, I've added this explanation to you and not being missunderstood.
Cheers and long live to zero ey-dee

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by guerringuerrin

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

 

I literally don't understand what you are trying to say.  English is my first language.

@Philip the Swaggerless Nothing related to your native language... You just don't know that labeling @Philip the Swaggerless applies only for the related sentence and not the following paragraphs (see the blank line ?!). I could have added All: or @all to avoid your confusion (fyi this is basic minute practice). Having explained that, please reread/reconsider my posts. Sorry to write you're misinterpreting a lot...

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by rm -rf

[Norse_Harold]

1 hour ago, guerringuerrin said:

BUT I need to ask you all: don't acuse me or anybody of being a smurf, or having another accounts without giving proof.

Absolutely right. This is an important principle of any democracy. Innocent until proven guilty. So far the only evidence shown actually disproves the accusation that guerringuerrin is WilsonWilson.

I'll add to the evidence that guerringuerrin has posted. On Wednesday, WilsonWilson was playing a rated 1v1 against BeTe. I joined as spectator.

Their populations were 62 and 95 at minute 10, with WilsonWilson having the lower population of the two. BeTe, a 1049 rated player, destroyed WilsonWilson in that rated 1v1. WilsonWilson got 12 kills, BeTe got 100. WilsonWilson resigned at about 19 minutes.

WilsonWilson has played 263 rated games, 125 of which were wins. His rating is 1073. I don't know why anyone would think that WilsonWilson and guerringuerrin are the same person. It's an insult to guerringuerrin as he is not that unskilled. I'm joking. He's significantly skilled, and WilsonWilson isn't.

1 hour ago, guerringuerrin said:

Now I ask particulary to @G.O.A.T to remove those claims about me or to show the proof to everybody, here in the thread, as he should do in any modern trial.

Yup. Actually, I would like to see both. What's the evidence in the first place, and remove the claim since it's been disproven.

@G.O.A.T Your list of alternate accounts (not necessarily all or even most are smurfs, since "smurf" means lying about one's skill) is useful. Please keep updating it. Also, please act responsibly and ensure that you are following the golden rule: Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You. That means don't use alternate accounts yourself if you consider it so bad. It means have a high standard of proof before making accusations. It means correct mistakes promptly. It means answer questions when people ask you what the evidence is.

You're not violating GDPR by collecting anonymous information about players. It's not personally identifiable. Don't worry about what rm-rf is saying about that. But, please, follow your own rules, as well.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, guerringuerrin said:

Now, because @G.O.A.T forced me to do this I will show you the few things I collected to prove I'm not WilsonWilson:

Needless to say I will do the same the day I see xaiki.
I think this is enough prove to ask @G.O.A.T to remove his claims. Are you agree @Philip the Swaggerless, @Darkcity @Player of 0AD, @Sevda, @Dakara?

Any logic based on geoloc or reverse DNS fails by design. Any claim should be de facto accepted...  @Stan`

But @G.O.A.Tseems also adding rumors... Phyzic has not played a single game since this mod is being developed (to be frank I know the rumor about @Player of 0AD). Unless replay metadata stores networking data. checking...

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Norse_Harold said:

You're not violating GDPR by collecting anonymous information about players. It's not personally identifiable. Don't worry about what rm-rf is saying about that. But, please, follow your own rules, as well.

@Norse_HaroldOf course he is. Please read carefully the links I posted in this thread. In any anon network capture, you have to hide the ip addresses, etc. And sanafur has to ask consent for the data he is storing from the end user. Read the popup before you connect to the lobby...

[Norse_Harold]

55 minutes ago, rm -rf said:

Please read carefully the links I posted in this thread. In any anon network capture, you have to hide the ip addresses, etc. And sanafur has to ask consent for the data he is storing from the end user. Read the popup before you connect to the lobby...

Okay, I've read the links that you shared, in particular gdpr-info.eu. I found the excerpt that you mentioned about "online identifier", which articles say means IP address.

In fact, an IP address might or might not be personally identifiable information. It depends on whether the controller of the information has enough information to determine the natural person associated with the IP address.

"... applies to IP addresses. If the controller has the legal option to oblige the (Internet service) provider to hand over additional information which enable him to identify the user behind the IP address, this is also personal data."

Source: https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/

Even if there were evidence of a criminal act against the data collector, I don't think that an ISP would hand over the identity of a person using an IP address to a data collector who is a civilian. Maybe the information could be obtained by the data collector during a trial in which the data collector was the plaintiff.

Anyway, the only time that an IP address is personal data is if the collector has access to other data that would reveal the natural person associated with that IP address.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Norse_Harold

[Philip the Swaggerless]

@guerringuerrin  We're good bro.

[Feldfeld]

9 hours ago, Norse_Harold said:

Okay, I've read the links that you shared, in particular gdpr-info.eu. I found the excerpt that you mentioned about "online identifier", which articles say means IP address.

In fact, an IP address might or might not be personally identifiable information. It depends on whether the controller of the information has enough information to determine the natural person associated with the IP address.

"... applies to IP addresses. If the controller has the legal option to oblige the (Internet service) provider to hand over additional information which enable him to identify the user behind the IP address, this is also personal data."

Source: https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/

Even if there were evidence of a criminal act against the data collector, I don't think that an ISP would hand over the identity of a person using an IP address to a data collector who is a civilian. Maybe the information could be obtained by the data collector during a trial in which the data collector was the plaintiff.

Anyway, the only time that an IP address is personal data is if the collector has access to other data that would reveal the natural person associated with that IP address.

For a person to be identifiable, according to the GDPR, doesn't mean that you need to be able to fetch his full name (and birthdate...) from the data you have stored. It only means that he can be distinguished from other people.

"At its most basic form, whenever you differentiate one individual from others, you are identifying that individual. Any individual who can be distinguished from others is considered identifiable." (https://gdpr.eu/eu-gdpr-personal-data/)

Considering the accusation being that both usernames and IP addresses are collected, we would need to consider multiple kind of identifiers: the username, the IP address, or the pair (username, IP address). From what I've read, the username is enough by itself. But let's develop a bit:

What is an "online identifier" according to the GDPR? They provided in their website a non-exhaustive list containing IP addresses, cookie identifiers, RFID. (same source as above). But it is non-exhaustive, and from https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/what-is-personal-data/what-are-identifiers-and-related-factors/ we have a more detailed description:

"Other examples of online identifiers that may be personal data include:

• MAC addresses;
• advertising IDs;
• pixel tags;
• account handles; and
• device fingerprints."

And even more precise: "An individual’s social media ‘handle’ or username, which may seem anonymous or nonsensical, is still sufficient to identify them as it uniquely identifies that individual. The username is personal data if it distinguishes one individual from another regardless of whether it is possible to link the ‘online’ identity with a ‘real world’ named individual."

Spoiler

The source here is the UK GDPR but it doesn't differ from EU GDPR wrt. identifiers https://www.gdpreu.org/differences-between-the-uk-and-eu-gdpr-regulations/ "The UK’s GDPR uses a common format with the EU’s original legislation. This means it’s pretty much identical. To remain GDPR compliant, those working with information systems must follow the same rules as the EU’s GDPR lays out."

Here the username collected are tied to account created in 0AD lobby, which fits the description.

What about IP addresses? (by themselves): I have to say that the EU GDPR website is not very clear on the subject. It is true that multiple people can hide behind the same IP address. For example, it can cover an household. But even the ISP can't precisely identify one user behind an IP address, at best it identifies an household, and even that is unreliable because of potential wifi sharing, or perhaps hacking. From what I remember, that detail has proven to be important in court, invalidating some proofs featuring IP addresses. But then, why again was the IP labeled as "online identifier"? Maybe because it does discriminate users most of the time even if not 100%? Maybe because they wanted to voluntarily leave some doubt to make it easier on the court, for them or for service providers.

 

On another note, WFG had to get GDPR compliant, and they don't collect more meaningful identifiers than usernames or IP address (ask @elexishow much effort he put into the GDPR compliance). Some more info in https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/UserDataProtection

 

That said, this doesn't mean GDPR can be applied in this situation, maybe this part (from my first source) can be debatable:

"Furthermore, the GDPR only applies to personal data processed in one of two ways:

• Personal data processed wholly or partly by automated means (or, information in electronic form); and
• Personal data processed in a non-automated manner which forms part of, or is intended to form part of, a ‘filing system’ (or, written records in a manual filing system)."

Edited October 16, 2022 by Feldfeld

[hyperion]

As this list apparently contains errors, where I live, this list is an offense with a penalty up to 3 years prison and no less than 30 daily rates.

[G.O.A.T]

@guerringuerrinbest would be just private msg to me, having too many  notification I almost overlook your post I will review your request. Patience with me. 

@DakaraWould you mind to provide that shared account name? I would be blessed to enhance my personal notes.

@hyperion What a democratic country for sure  In my country we don't have such mess. but still, no judge no prison right? 

 

Motto of this discussion  could be:
If you throw a stone at the geese, the one that feels it squeals most