Thorfinn the Shallow Minded Mod

[Yekaterina]

This mod incorporates structure tree changes proposed by our historian @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded:

1. Athenians can build gym since phase 2 and train champions from it, complemented by a marathon tech to speed up champions.

2. Spartans can build Military Mess Hall in phase 2 and train the champion spearman from it.

3. Macedonians can build  siege workshop in phase 2 then train siege tower and crossbow from it

4. Macedonians have access to Hetairos Companion Cavalry since phase 2. 

5. Sparta and Rome get new allied slinger unit. 

6. Athenians can train phase 2 champions from gym and after unlocking Iphicratean reform, marines can also be trained from the gym.

7. Romans can train Socii Slingers and Socii javelin cavalry from the new Socii Auxiliary camp, available since town phase. 

8. Iberians get an unique Soliferreum elite champion javelineer unit. 

  

Newest update: compatible with A25

Git link: https://github.com/Yekaterina999/Thorfinn-Balancing-mod

thorfinn.zip

Edited May 20, 2021 by Yekaterina

[Yekaterina]

What has not changed:

1. All phase 3 techs still need phase 3, all heroes still need phase 3. 

2. Macedonians cannot train rams, lithobolos nor crossbowman, as well as all of the siege upgrades before phase 3, so there is still plenty of motivation for them to phase up. 

3. Athenian Marines are not affected

 

The reason for Macedonian siege workshop in P2 is giving Macedonian players enough time to load their siege towers if they want to use them. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

You have to make a post that links the ideas of the mods to consider in the gameplay.

This one of these ideas.

[Yekaterina]

2 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

You have to make a post that links the ideas of the mods to consider in the gameplay.

This one of these ideas.

Ok. Here is an explanation of the changes. 

Point 1: Athenians can build gym since phase 2 and train champions from it. 

Explanation 1: The Athenians lost their Stoa because of its conflict with historical facts. This stripped them of the ability to train champions from Phase 2 and hence hindered their ability to make decisive Phase 2 pushes. Now the P2 gym restores their early access to champions and adds one more plausible strategy. I am also considering giving them a land-based sword champion unit and a heavy skirmisher, as in the Stoa Mod. 

 

Point 2: Spartan gets Syssition in Phase 1.

Explanation: Military was the main part of Spartan life no matter what phase they were in, so they deserve early access to this in light of their training of boys from young age. Having access to champions in phase 1 is a strength, but it certainly is not overpowered because they are expensive. No phase 1 player can afford to spam them and always staying in Phase 1 is quite risky because you cannot back yourself up with siege, heroes and necessary technologies. 

 

Point 3: Macedonians get siege workshop early. 

Explanation: Macedon is a very siege-focused civ, so early access to siege emphasises the point. The player can begin building siege workshop while they wait for city phase, and do not have to waste too much time loading siege towers if they have already boomed up in phase 2. Many other civs such as Mauryans can push very early on, which leaves the slow boomers like Macedon at a risky position. This would give them an upper hand and open up some new creative tactics. Oxybeles and siege towers cannot do much damage unless used en mass so this does not threaten other civs too much neither, especially considering Macedon will be slow. 

 

Point 4: Macedonians get companion cavalry early

Explanation: Thorfinn the Shallow Minded suggested this. I think it is a bit too OP but still implemented it. One can argue that players cannot afford enough of these to cause damage without seriously delaying their other plans. Also they can be used as anti-siege and anti-archer. 

 

[Yekaterina]

Here are a few changes I would like to add into the mod, but I need the valuable opinions of balancing advisors @Lion.Kanzen @Player of 0AD @borg- @ValihrAnt @maroder @badosu @nani

 

1. Athenians can train a sword champion from their gym, which allows them to counter archer raids more easily.

2. Macedonians get an infantry spearman and a champion pikeman. These two units did exist historically in the Macedonian army and the champion pikeman would also be anti-archer. 

3. Spartans and Romans can recruit mercenary archers. 

4. Ptolemies and Seleucids get phase 2 push options as well. Or at least some anti-ram options for Ptolemies. 

5. Britons get P2 champions. The exact type is up to you. 

[Yekaterina]

@Dizaka @Dakara @BreakfastBurrito_007 @chrstgtr @hyperion You guys can also help me with some advices.

Everyone and anyone's comments are welcome

[Lion.Kanzen]

I only have svn installed.

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

29 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Explanation: Military was the main part of Spartan life no matter what phase they were in, so they deserve early access to this in light of their training of boys from young age. Having access to champions in phase 1 is a strength, but it certainly is not overpowered because they are expensive. No phase 1 player can afford to spam them and always staying in Phase 1 is quite risky because you cannot back yourself up with siege, heroes and necessary technologies. 

My main qualm with this would be pocket usage in 4v4. imagine ur a border player and ur facing equal army plus 2 rams, then suddenly 20 spartan hoplites hop out of the rams and cap ur cc. I would be very worried about how this might work in 4v4s.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

28 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

My main qualm with this would be pocket usage in 4v4. imagine ur a border player and ur facing equal army plus 2 rams, then suddenly 20 spartan hoplites hop out of the rams and cap ur cc. I would be very worried about how this might work in 4v4s.

A couple thoughts come to mind for how this could be addressed.  Spartan hoplites could be a bit weaker in the Village Phase.  Better yet there could be paired technologies available with each phase to personalise them.  Yet another approach could be to make their training time a lot slower in the Village Phase to prevent them from being massed (which would be undesirable).  Even another option could be to have the Spartan hoplite available at the Town Phase instead, but I like this the least.

51 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Spartans and Romans can recruit mercenary archers. 

I would maybe recommend making a helot slinger be possible for Spartans to train in the Town Phase.  For Romans, they could have access to a Socii slinger or archer since Polybius states that roughly half of their army was made up of allied troops.

53 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Athenians can train a sword champion from their gym, which allows them to counter archer raids more easily.

The marine could be a gymnasium unit as well.  I always found it sad that they are only available on water maps.

55 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Britons get P2 champions. The exact type is up to you. 

Geneva had a few ideas that I think might be worth exploring.  

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/37979-britons-rework-guerrila-and-mobility-oriented-faction/?tab=comments#comment-422631 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

6 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

A couple thoughts come to mind for how this could be addressed.  Spartan hoplites could be a bit weaker in the Village Phase.  Better yet there could be paired technologies available with each phase to personalise them.  Yet another approach could be to make their training time a lot slower in the Village Phase to prevent them from being massed (which would be undesirable).  Even another option could be to have the Spartan hoplite available at the Town Phase instead, but I like this the least.

This is actually a super brain idea. Sparta could have a flexible champion available in all ages, This can probably help Sparta with its unit diversity problem. And make it have a potential advantage at any phase. We would need to be careful to balance the unit accurately at each phase and with each personalisation/upgrade.

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Genava55 anything to add to the ideas?

[Yekaterina]

27 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Spartan hoplites could be a bit weaker in the Village Phase.  Better yet there could be paired technologies available with each phase to personalise them.  Yet another approach could be to make their training time a lot slower in the Village Phase to prevent them from being massed (which would be undesirable).  Even another option could be to have the Spartan hoplite available at the Town Phase instead, but I like this the least.

slightly more difficult to program, but I can make 3 separate units each trained at a certain phase. Technology is also do-able. 

 

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

My main qualm with this would be pocket usage in 4v4. imagine ur a border player and ur facing equal army plus 2 rams, then suddenly 20 spartan hoplites hop out of the rams and cap ur cc. I would be very worried about how this might work in 4v4s.

You can do that with any civ and any champion...

 

29 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

The marine could be a gymnasium unit as well.  I always found it sad that they are only available on water maps.

Easy to implement, but that might make Iphicrates less useful. 

29 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

I would maybe recommend making a helot slinger be possible for Spartans to train in the Town Phase.  For Romans, they could have access to a Socii slinger or archer since Polybius states that roughly half of their army was made up of allied troops.

Easy. Should they just cost stone + wood or some metal as well? 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Hmm. This is a much more complicated debate than the other balancing topics. It is important to point out that these changes will/can contribute to civ and strategy differentiation.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

Easy. Should they just cost stone + wood or some metal as well? 

Probably they should cost fairly standard resources.  One idea that borg was rather favourable towards was having helots be cheaper at the cost of worse combat strength.  This kind of practice could be extended to other units as well such as the Persian spearman.  I would go with something conservative like -10% resource cost for -15-20% hitpoints.  Obviously those numbers could be up for debate, but I think that it could be worth experimenting worth if you want to try that out as well.  Fantastic work.

2 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

This is actually a super brain idea. Sparta could have a flexible champion available in all ages, This can probably help Sparta with its unit diversity problem. And make it have a potential advantage at any phase. We would need to be careful to balance the unit accurately at each phase and with each personalisation/upgrade.

My thoughts exactly.  One of the key sorts of ways I think would be interesting to see would be something along the line of one approach making the Spartans be more like officer units while the other would allow for a larger mass that could be fielded.

[Yekaterina]

New release: 

1. Added an auxiliary camp to Romans, which is available since town phase. 

2. Roman cavalry javelineers and slingers are trained from auxiliary camp. 

[Genava55]

On 11/05/2021 at 11:31 PM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Geneva had a few ideas that I think might be worth exploring.  

There is the Caledonian swordsman mentioned by Tacitus in Agricola and the archaeological records of scabbards that could have been carried in the back, mostly in the Northern part of Britain.

The chariot should be a major element of the British warfare.

Any champion with one of those highly decorated shields could fit as well.

[Yekaterina]

2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

There is the Caledonian swordsman mentioned by Tacitus in Agricola and the archaeological records of scabbards that could have been carried in the back, mostly in the Northern part of Britain.

The chariot should be a major element of the British warfare.

Any champion with one of those highly decorated shields could fit as well.

What do you think if I give Britons a chariot with detachable riders who can be swordsmen? I have already made this unit in another mod. But I guess we can have many different chariots for different purposes: a melee chariot, a javelin chariot and an archer chariot. 

[Genava55]

2 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

What do you think if I give Britons a chariot with detachable riders who can be swordsmen? I have already made this unit in another mod. But I guess we can have many different chariots for different purposes: a melee chariot, a javelin chariot and an archer chariot. 

No archer for the Britons. But a swordsman could work. With the ability to shoot javelin from the chariot when there is someone onboard.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Genava55

[Dizaka]

Tested a Death Match game vs sandbox AI to see the build for Macedonians.  Will a test run normal game vs sandbox tomorrow to see the timings and see how it could impact meta.  I know with @letsplay0ad's letsfight mod Macdonians were strong and competitive vs Mauryas with arsenal counting towards p3 and without siege towers in p2.

Couple things I've noticed/concerned about (some of the concerns cancel themselves out):

• The arsenal doesn't count towards P3 (Note: only 3 buildings that count towards p3)
• However, you can build siege towers in P2
• Companion Cav (champs) are immediately available in p2, not after some time.
  • lk
• I like the unit movement.  Is that the same as the @ValihrAnt mod?

Also, will test other civs.  

 

When trying spartans get the following errors:

 

Can't build anything but women from the CC/Agora. Error occurs when selecting the CC/Agora.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Dizaka

[ValihrAnt]

I don't mind giving some civs more citizen soldier options, but keep in mind that civs having weaknesses is also a good thing.

Pushing champions to phase 2 is something that should be experimented with, though moving cavalry champions and ranged champions would likely be a bit too much. Phase 2 siege can be interesting but I don't think it should ever be more than rams.

Quote

Point 2: Spartan gets Syssition in Phase 1.

Explanation: Military was the main part of Spartan life no matter what phase they were in, so they deserve early access to this in light of their training of boys from young age. Having access to champions in phase 1 is a strength, but it certainly is not overpowered because they are expensive. No phase 1 player can afford to spam them and always staying in Phase 1 is quite risky because you cannot back yourself up with siege, heroes and necessary technologies. 

I disagree, going to P2 gives you absolutely no benefit if you plan to play aggressive. The eco techs are quite expensive and military techs are much too expensive. There's a reason you don't see players getting military upgrades in P2 and why the P2 eco techs frequently get left until after clicking P3.

 

For Athen P2 champs, there is this patch: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3930

[Dizaka]

Actually, P2 siege towers sounds interesting.  It forces players to diversify armies when P2, especially if going vs a P2 siege tower civ.  Additionally, P2 siege towers cost 500 wood and 300 metal.  That's a ton and substantially delaying P3.

Palisades are available P1.  Carefully placed palisades counter siege towers really well.  Actually, putting 500 wood into palisades is an extremely long palisades wall.

 

I wonder, can "Britons 1" "Britons 2" "Britons 3", etc can be made in the balancing mods to test impact of different changes to civs on balance?  Therefore, instead of theory actual gameplay can be tried out vs other players using the way the civ is setup?

Edited May 14, 2021 by Dizaka

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

26 minutes ago, ValihrAnt said:

For Athen P2 champs, there is this patch: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3930

My comment:

If you move the Athenian Marine to the barracks or gymnasium, then I suggest you rename the unit back to its original name from years ago: Athenian Ekdromos. Full circle.

If you have it trained from the dock, then "Athenian Marine" still works, but I'd keep it trained only from the dock. Keeps it unique and also keeps it thematic (marines make sense trained from a dock or ship from an in-gameworld perspective).

I like either option.

[Yekaterina]

4 hours ago, ValihrAnt said:

Phase 2 siege can be interesting but I don't think it should ever be more than rams.

On the contrary, ram is the main siege weapon of the game. They are the most often used option. If they are available in P2 then that would be too OP, because 1 ram can cause huge damage if the other players are still booming. 1 siege tower cannot cause as much havoc, especially when you don't have upgrades and Demetrios hero. The same applies for oxybeles. If you spam siege towers in P2 then you would be slowed down a lot and by the time all 8 of your towers are ready the other players are already prepared to push. Plus, you don't get hero or champions in time, meaning you can't defend against a ram counter attack

[Yekaterina]

4 hours ago, ValihrAnt said:

going to P2 gives you absolutely no benefit if you plan to play aggressive. The eco techs are quite expensive and military techs are much too expensive. There's a reason you don't see players getting military

I see your point. If you play well then perhaps you can force a player to resign without sieging their cc. Maybe they should be moved to town phase. I will work on the bug fix.

[Yekaterina]

4 hours ago, Dizaka said:

wonder, can "Britons 1" "Britons 2" "Britons 3", etc can be made in the balancing mods to test impact of different changes to civs on balance? 

Yes. We can even have Mace1 Mace2 and Mace3

Wait for my update pls