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Thorfinn the Shallow Minded Mod


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This mod incorporates structure tree changes proposed by our historian @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded: 1. Athenians can build gym since phase 2 and train champions from it, complemented by a marath

Problems and recommendations from Structure Tree (as new stuff isn't working now):   Athenians: - Champion Skirmisher needs red skin. It looks like a mercenary. - Marathon's effect

I don't mind giving some civs more citizen soldier options, but keep in mind that civs having weaknesses is also a good thing. Pushing champions to phase 2 is something that should be experimente

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5 hours ago, Dizaka said:

When trying spartans get the following errors:

image.png.861e386887abf04256b65dbae4159794.png

 

Can't build anything but women from the CC/Agora. Error occurs when selecting the CC/Agora.

Dizaka are you using A25 dev version? This mod is intended for A24 and doesn't work on A25 yet. I will try to make it compatible for A25. 

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Ok the bug has been fixed. 

Changes:

1. Spartans can train slingers from barracks since village phase. 

2. Spartan Syssition can be build since town phase and counts as town building. 

3. Macedonian siege workshop counts as a town building. 

This is only compatible with A24 right now. A25 needs some tweaks

 

Thorfinn A24.zip

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5 hours ago, ValihrAnt said:

I disagree, going to P2 gives you absolutely no benefit if you plan to play aggressive. The eco techs are quite expensive and military techs are much too expensive. There's a reason you don't see players getting military upgrades in P2 and why the P2 eco techs frequently get left until after clicking P3.

I did list a number of solutions to this problem earlier in the thread.  Pushing the Syssiton to Phase 2 is only one option, and the problem with economy and military technologies sounds like an entirely different problem.  Having champions available at the start of the game would be an interesting difference that no other civilisation at least at the moment has, and it would be a shame if it were moved to a different phase just for that reason.  That all said, I understand the basis behind your argument; honestly I'm just happy that Sparta can train Spartans earlier.

6 hours ago, ValihrAnt said:

though moving cavalry champions and ranged champions would likely be a bit too much.

Again that is a fair concern, but there can be a difference in stats of a champion in the Town Phase that are immediately improved upon advancing to the City Phase.

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2 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:
8 hours ago, ValihrAnt said:

I disagree, going to P2 gives you absolutely no benefit if you plan to play aggressive. The eco techs are quite expensive and military techs are much too expensive. There's a reason you don't see players getting military upgrades in P2 and why the P2 eco techs frequently get left until after clicking P3.

I did list a number of solutions to this problem earlier in the thread.  Pushing the Syssiton to Phase 2 is only one option, and the problem with economy and military technologies sounds like an entirely different problem.  Having champions available at the start of the game would be an interesting difference that no other civilisation at least at the moment has, and it would be a shame if it were moved to a different phase just for that reason.  That all said, I understand the basis behind your argument; honestly I'm just happy that Sparta can train Spartans earlier.

What I said there was referred to this statement: 

Quote

always staying in Phase 1 is quite risky because you cannot back yourself up with siege, heroes and necessary technologies. 

Simply, I believe that phase 2 currently provides too little benefit, but that's a different problem. I'm not against trying P1 champs either because it is an Alpha after all.

2 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:
8 hours ago, ValihrAnt said:

though moving cavalry champions and ranged champions would likely be a bit too much.

Again that is a fair concern, but there can be a difference in stats of a champion in the Town Phase that are immediately improved upon advancing to the City Phase.

Yeah, that kind of solution can also be tried.

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4 hours ago, ValihrAnt said:

Simply, I believe that phase 2 currently provides too little benefit, but that's a different problem. I'm not against trying P1 champs either because it is an Alpha after all.

 

6 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

honestly I'm just happy that Sparta can train Spartans earlier.

 

To satisfy both of you I have an idea: Spartan gets 2 champions: a village Spartiates champion and a Town Phase Spartiates Champion. 

The village one can be a bit weaker than the town phase one. But note that Sparta already has Skiritai, who can be used to push. If they get a spearman that would be perfect. I also gave them a slinger for ranged support during an early push. 

Should they get archers?

@ValihrAnt Do you think other civs should get P2 push options? I feel like Ptol and Persians are the most obvious turtles right now. Ptolemies should get something aggressive other than just camels. Same applies for Persians. 

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8 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

Dizaka are you using A25 dev version? This mod is intended for A24 and doesn't work on A25 yet. I will try to make it compatible for A25. 

Using a24 only with mods.  A25 is from SVN using different directory structure.

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Awesome, ty.

 

  

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

 

@ValihrAnt Do you think other civs should get P2 push options? I feel like Ptol and Persians are the most obvious turtles right now. Ptolemies should get something aggressive other than just camels. Same applies for Persians. 

I think the camel archers are a p2 push that continues from p1.  If the camels are successful in p1 they can easily continue onto p2/p3.  The issue is they don't work well vs archer civs.  Less effective vs slingers.  Extremely effective vs spear/skrim/sword/.  Also, they are weak vs spear cav (So rome/mace can defend vs these).

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6 minutes ago, Dizaka said:

I think the camel archers are a p2 push that continues from p1.  If the camels are successful in p1 they can easily continue onto p2/p3.  The issue is they don't work well vs archer civs.  Less effective vs slingers.  Extremely effective vs spear/skrim/sword/.  Also, they are weak vs spear cav (So rome/mace can defend vs these).

That is exactly why I want to give these two civs some other push options. Maybe a heave skirmisher champion or a spearman for Ptolemies? 

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18 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

To satisfy both of you I have an idea: Spartan gets 2 champions: a village Spartiates champion and a Town Phase Spartiates Champion. 

The village one can be a bit weaker than the town phase one. But note that Sparta already has Skiritai, who can be used to push. If they get a spearman that would be perfect. I also gave them a slinger for ranged support during an early push. 

Should they get archers?

Seems good.  Honestly I would prefer for their slinger to be available in the Town Phase; Spartans have the identity of a melee infantry civilisation and should probably retain that identity since their champions should theoretically deal with infantry well enough.  I would say a hard no to archers myself; that all said, I respect your choices in the matter.

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29 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Seems good.  Honestly I would prefer for their slinger to be available in the Town Phase; Spartans have the identity of a melee infantry civilisation and should probably retain that identity since their champions should theoretically deal with infantry well enough.  I would say a hard no to archers myself; that all said, I respect your choices in the matter.

Ok, as you wish. 

Should Romans get auxiliary archers? 

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8 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Even though they probably fielded them, I would say no.  That's just personal preference to me.

OK, working on it. 

Spartans get auxiliary slingers which are available since town phase. Should I give them an auxiliary barracks to separate them from the prime specimen Spartans?

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1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

Spartans get auxiliary slingers which are available since town phase. Should I give them an auxiliary barracks to separate them from the prime specimen Spartans?

Auxiliary is a bit of an anachronism from post-Marian times.  I would just call them Helots or Perioikoi, leaning more on the helot side of things.  Since prime specimen Spartans have their own building already, I would say that the normal barracks is good enough.

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failures found, it is impossible to see the tree of macedonian structures
details: I liked the marathon technology, but the icon of someone running would be ideal.
the iberian soliferrum with an exclusive icon, the troops that come out and the icon are completely different, the rest I like and I have to play a little more on another map, I've been in africa a lot because it's easy vs AI's. 

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6 minutes ago, soloooy0 said:

failures found, it is impossible to see the tree of macedonian structures
details: I liked the marathon technology, but the icon of someone running would be ideal.
the iberian soliferrum with an exclusive icon, the troops that come out and the icon are completely different, the rest I like and I have to play a little more on another map, I've been in africa a lot because it's easy vs AI's. 

Thank you for the bug report. The Macedonian issue has been fixed. 

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