nani Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 26 minutes ago, Palaxin said: AFAIK many years ago there was an official decision to only use soft counters in 0 A.D. (no fixed attack bonuses). That already has changed. However, it's not always that intuitive. Intuitive, for me, would mean about (+ soft counter ++ hard counter): ranged infantry archer: + heavy infantry ++ light infantry - spear cavalry -- sword cavalry slinger: + light infantry ++ heavy infantry - spear cavalry -- sword cavalry javelin: ++ ranged - spear cavalry -- sword cavalry melee infantry spear: + cavalry - ranged pike: ++ cavalry - ranged - infantry sword: + spear infantry ++ pike infantry + siege -- ranged ranged cavalry archer: + heavy infantry ++ light infantry - spear infantry -- pike infantry -- spear cavalry javelin: ++ ranged - spear infantry -- pike infantry -- spear cavalry melee cavalry spear: ++ cavalry + ranged - spear infantry -- pike infantry sword: ++ ranged + siege - spear infantry -- pike infantry -- spear cavalry Very interesting, could you link to where that decision was made? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 28 minutes ago, Palaxin said: AFAIK many years ago there was an official decision to only use soft counters in 0 A.D. (no fixed attack bonuses). That already has changed. However, it's not always that intuitive. Intuitive, for me, would mean about (+ soft counter ++ hard counter): ranged infantry archer: + heavy infantry ++ light infantry - spear cavalry -- sword cavalry slinger: + light infantry ++ heavy infantry - spear cavalry -- sword cavalry javelin: ++ ranged - spear cavalry -- sword cavalry melee infantry spear: + cavalry - ranged pike: ++ cavalry - ranged - infantry sword: + spear infantry ++ pike infantry + siege -- ranged ranged cavalry archer: + heavy infantry ++ light infantry - spear infantry -- pike infantry -- spear cavalry javelin: ++ ranged - spear infantry -- pike infantry -- spear cavalry melee cavalry spear: ++ cavalry + ranged - spear infantry -- pike infantry sword: ++ ranged + siege - spear infantry -- pike infantry -- spear cavalry The problem is that you are able to maintain historical realism. Javelins for example were effective against heavy infantry and not long-range units, but either way it can be adjusted and I like how you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChronA Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 borg ninja-ed me. For most people, what is intuitive is based on how Age of Empires 2 did things. But that is often a far cry from historical reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thankforpieOfficial Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) On 12/03/2021 at 6:05 PM, borg- said: The problem is that you are able to maintain historical realism. Javelins for example were effective against heavy infantry and not long-range units, but either way it can be adjusted and I like how you think. bold of you to assume that all 0ad players have interest in history Edited June 11, 2022 by thankforpieOfficial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 23 minutes ago, thankforpieOfficial said: BRING BACK A23 BCUZ I CANT PLAY OTHER CIV THAN OP GAULS bold of you to assume that 0ad players care about history Most of our changes had a historical context. I have always made it clear here on the forum that it is very important to have a historical foundation. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, thankforpieOfficial said: bold of you to assume that 0ad players care about history They must, since there are plenty of other free games out there they could play if they didn't care about history. Even if I didn't give 2 cares about WW2 history I would still think it silly for a bazooka to take out the Battleship Bismark. Edited March 12, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silier Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 well if they don't like the historical aspect of the game, they just need to find another game to play. there are different types of games and different things players enjoy, it just may not be the correct one 0 A.D. (pronounced “zero-ey-dee”) is a free, open-source, historical Real Time Strategy (RTS) game currently under development by Wildfire Games, a global group of volunteer game developers. As the leader of an ancient civilization, you must gather the resources you need to raise a military force and dominate your enemies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palaxin Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, nani said: Very interesting, could you link to where that decision was made? probably this one: On 02/12/2014 at 12:51 PM, niektb said: In fact hard counters were removed in Alpha 17 after it was deciced (with a good discussion) that a soft counter system is easier to balance (dunno which topic) The idea was to implement counters purely by gameplay mechanics such as charging for cavalry, directional attacks, formations, camouflage etc. Many of these things would consume "stamina", that would regenerate slowly... Basically to implement counters by making combat more realistic... Many of these features are still in the official list of planned features, but honestly I do not see progress in that direction (may be also due to some programmers not active anymore that were willing to implement these features)... 1 hour ago, borg- said: The problem is that you are able to maintain historical realism. Javelins for example were effective against heavy infantry and not long-range units, but either way it can be adjusted and I like how you think. Yeah you are right... I prefer historic realism as well, my point was more to establish are clear counter scheme (that is clear/stable enough to not change overall strategies because of minor balance changes) 1 hour ago, ChronA said: borg ninja-ed me. For most people, what is intuitive is based on how Age of Empires 2 did things. But that is often a far cry from historical reality. true... I have to remind myself more often of that! 1 hour ago, thankforpieOfficial said: BRING BACK A23 BCUZ I CANT PLAY OTHER CIV THAN OP GAULS bold of you to assume that 0ad players care about history I do not think there are "0ad players" in general... some care more about competition and gameplay, some more about history, some about city-building, ... The game will always attract different players but I think it should stick with its roots Edited March 12, 2021 by Palaxin link soft counter post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thankforpieOfficial Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, Palaxin said: I do not think there are "0ad players" in general... some care more about competition and gameplay, some more about history, some about city-building, ... The game will always attract different players but I think it should stick with its roots well it wouldnt make sense to suddenly stop basing future patches on history consdiering up until now it was all based on the past Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 48 minutes ago, thankforpieOfficial said: BRING BACK A23 BCUZ I CANT PLAY OTHER CIV THAN OP GAULS bold of you to assume that 0ad players care about history This isn't a democracy or or some result product, marketing to sell to the largest possible audience. Then both ends must be taken and combine them in the best possible way. If we were not interested in the historically correct part, we would take pop culture as a reference and we would go to the Hollywood style , that is historically incorrect. then we wouldn't waste time reading texts and looking for historically correct information. Either we would be very cartoon or we would be historical fantasy like Spartacus. And if we continued to listen to people we would even make it politically correct and inclusive. An old world with inclusivity, vegan and all that propaganda. None of the symbols that can be considered nationalist would be allowed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) I leave you a precedent from AoE 3 DE. https://youtu.be/EpPo_HlKAKM. Edited March 12, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatherbushido Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 15 hours ago, nani said: Very interesting, could you link to where that decision was made? That was posted many times. Those things were around 2014. At the time there was a design group, then one person in charge of the gameplay. That was the beginning of the lobby too. A time of changes: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/15644 https://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/15655 https://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/15713 Decision of moving to hard counters to gameplay features: But then, there was an appraisal of those changes: 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nani Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 6 hours ago, fatherbushido said: Decision of moving to hard counters to gameplay features: No permissions to view Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatherbushido Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 10 minutes ago, nani said: No permissions to view Oh sorry! It was in 2014, the decision was made to remove hard counters (like the rps designed in the early years) and replace them with stats (speed, accuracy, range...) and gameplay features (flanking, ...). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 35 minutes ago, fatherbushido said: gameplay features (flanking, ...). About that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetswaveaBook Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 I think the dev team has things quite right. I think only small stat changes are in place. From what I´ve seen in AoE2, small changes can have a drastic impact on the preferred strategy in RTS games. I am more the type of boom player and I think booming is advantageous against turtling opponents. However I can understand that the meta currently might not be the best it could be. I think it would be solved with a few small stat changes. If melee cavalry and infantry swordsmen(for infantry swordsmen maybe also +10% speed) would get +1 pierce armor and towers would take +50% longer to build and upgrade, I think the meta would be fine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 how many weeks since this post was opened and not a single tangible solution? Mistakes were made? Yes. The errors of 24 have been improved, that's where we are. I honestly like the mechanics of A24 more than how horrible A23 was. Is it going to be unbalanced? Obviously, it is a game in development. People can stay on A23 if they want to, but many of the complainers don't propose anything, don't patch, don't test SVN, don't appear in The phabricator. How is it possible that we take them into account if they do not make a minimum effort? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinketos Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 52 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said: how many weeks since this post was opened and not a single tangible solution? Mistakes were made? Yes. The errors of 24 have been improved, that's where we are. I honestly like the mechanics of A24 more than how horrible A23 was. Is it going to be unbalanced? Obviously, it is a game in development. People can stay on A23 if they want to, but many of the complainers don't propose anything, don't patch, don't test SVN, don't appear in The phabricator. How is it possible that we take them into account if they do not make a minimum effort? Based 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 Just now, Trinketos said: Based Redpillled anonbro 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 The audiences are renewed ... It would be nice to read a bit of this and take note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted March 20, 2023 Report Share Posted March 20, 2023 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted March 20, 2023 Report Share Posted March 20, 2023 As I said at the time, a24 was necessary for us to have better later alphas, and that's what happened, today we have a much better version than a23, and improving fast. 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetswaveaBook Posted March 20, 2023 Report Share Posted March 20, 2023 2 hours ago, borg- said: As I said at the time, a24 was necessary for us to have better later alphas, and that's what happened, today we have a much better version than a23, and improving fast. I didn't play alpha 23 much, but I think A26 is worse for me than A24 and A25. By the way: I know some people have strong feelings about A24, but that doesn't affect my opinion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted March 20, 2023 Report Share Posted March 20, 2023 7 hours ago, Yekaterina said: @real_tabasco_sauce Ken Wood. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted March 21, 2023 Report Share Posted March 21, 2023 A23 had great sound effects and battles. At least we can get the sounds back. I've already done some of the restoration in the AbstractGUI mod but would be good to implement it in vanilla. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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