===[TASK]=== Kushite Units, Unit Textures, and Unit Props

[Sundiata]

3 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

Can a tunic pelt combination be used for 3rd tier ranks? His cape too, can we include it?

So, a tunic, with a pelt partially draped over it, yes, that's possible. But be aware he shouldn't look like the priest, who also has a leopard pelt draped over one shoulder. I don't know about the leopard cape though  ...

[Sundiata]

Just now, wackyserious said:

Those are just perfect! Really... Doesn't need to be anything more or less than that. Love 'em! You have my seal of approval  

 

 

[Alexandermb]

4 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

@Alexandermb, God, yes!!!!

Compare: 

 

Could you share the files?

Maybe I should make a new horse crown texture for the Seleucids as well now that we're at it? If you want to do the modelling? 

 

haven't tested in game yet (i'm downloading again the svn version some files broke and can't even open atlas)  the black base is ok, or it should be a strap around? any prop innanimated model you have in mind in need of an update please tell me, they are far more easy and faster to make than an animation, horse took about 4 months or more, camels some weeks (Still WIP) fisherman days (still WIP).

[Sundiata]

1 hour ago, Alexandermb said:

the black base is ok, or it should be a strap around?

Black base is ok. Indeed, when attached to the horses' head, it should look like it's connected to the halter, but I don't think that's going to be a problem as it will sit on top of the upper two bands of the halter anyway. 

 

1 hour ago, Alexandermb said:

any prop innanimated model you have in mind in need of an update please tell me, they are far more easy and faster to make than an animation,

Ok, I will  , Seleucid horse-crown texture coming up (tomorrow or something).

Edited January 25, 2018 by Sundiata

[Nescio]

Forgive me for interrupting again

On 23/01/2018 at 11:41 PM, wackyserious said:

@Sundiata Is this how you wanted the sandals to look like?

Those look too red to me. Intense red dyes (carmine, crimson, scarlet) were produced from the Kermes lice and related species; the technique seems to have originated in ancient Armenia; the “kermes oak” they feed on occurs in large part of the Mediterranean but not in Egypt or anywhere south of it. In short, I'd recommend changing the red to a shade which could have been produced from henna, ochre, or another dye won in Nubia, but not the Kermes-derived colour of red M&Ms (unsuitable for vegetarians).

1 hour ago, wackyserious said:

Also can you check the back of the shield of the first 2 guys, should the wood be a whole piece or segmented?

Given the size of those shields I guess it would make sense if they're made of wicker or perhaps a wooden frame covered by a cowhide, but not from solid wood (which is not impossible but very heavy); cf. Mycenean figure-eight shields or 19th C Zulu Nguni shields.

10 hours ago, Sundiata said:

We need a Kushite feathered horse-crown (prop), to replace the current Seleucid placeholder. I made a horse-crown texture with the exact outline:

What kind of feathers are those? Ostrich? Falcon? Vulture?

5 hours ago, Sundiata said:

 

This is a really valuable image, not just for the shields (leopard, cowhide, and giraffe patterns can be easily distinguished), but also for the animals shown below (e.g. the cattle). It's probably better to avoid solid colour cow-hides and use white-with-black/brown/red patterns instead (as it seems you're already doing).

[Sundiata]

43 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Given the size of those shields I guess it would make sense if they're made of wicker or perhaps a wooden frame covered by a cowhide, but not from solid wood (which is not impossible but very heavy); cf. Mycenean figure-eight shields or 19th C Zulu Nguni shields.

Yeah, my thoughts. I don't think trees of the size necessary to create a solid wood shield of that size even exist in Northern/central Sudan. I don't think solid wood was used by many people anywhere (it's super-heavy, and easily splits after a while). The shields are  good as they are now.

49 minutes ago, Nescio said:

What kind of feathers are those? Ostrich? Falcon? Vulture?

I always assumed dyed ostrich feathers. I suspect they might have been attached to small metal rods to keep them straight like that (pure conjecture here)

 

53 minutes ago, Nescio said:

This is a really valuable image, not just for the shields (leopard, cowhide, and giraffe patterns can be easily distinguished), but also for the animals shown below (e.g. the cattle). It's probably better to avoid solid colour cow-hides and use white-with-black/brown/red patterns instead (as it seems you're already doing).

Yup. Solid coloured cattle definitely existed though, the patchy ones are just a lot more common (in Kush at least). There are also solid black shields and other types, but as I said, I think those are painted hides.

There's also this interesting type .From the Theban tomb of the viceroy of Kush. It's very easy to gloss over the fact that the two shields on the right actually have elaborate designs on them.

 

I tried to bump the contrast to make it a little more visible. Both shields have a winged solar disks lining the circular top part of the shield. I can't make out the rest of the left shield, but the right shield clearly depicts a king, standing in profile with legs spread wide apart, and one arm raised up high, holding a spear that points downwards, diagonally across the shield, probably impaling some enemies. A classic execution scene.

 

Then there's these babies from Tutankhamun's tomb... 

[Alexandermb]

2 hours ago, wackyserious said:

@Sundiata What about this chieftain guy?

Can a tunic pelt combination be used for 3rd tier ranks? His cape too, can we include it?

@Sundiata All right, got it.

i might have an idea for the middle guy, i have this idea before but never tried

the cape's are based on the same armature of the body, but they are just a plane cloth in the back, maybe making the proper mesh with the proper bone influences it could be done a full body cape, or cape-scarf like, but i'm not sure if it could use the actual cape textures so maybe it will need a new one.
 

Spoiler

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 minutes ago, Alexandermb said:

i might have an idea for the middle guy, i have this idea before but never tried

the cape's are based on the same armature of the body, but they are just a plane cloth in the back, maybe making the proper mesh with the proper bone influences it could be done a full body cape, or cape-scarf like, but i'm not sure if it could use the actual cape textures so maybe it will need a new one.
 

  Hide contents

 

Lol. its nice but I can't  stop thinking in this.

[Sundiata]

0 D.C.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

0 D.C.

0  "Después de Christo". is  the translation to the Spanish.

In this case Detective Comics.

 

[Skhorn]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

0  "Después de Christo". is  the translation to the Spanish.

In this case Detective Comics.

 

So, DC Comics = Detective Comics Comics... How interesting

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, Skhorn said:

So, DC Comics = Detective Comics Comics... How interesting

Spoiler

 

[Nescio]

9 hours ago, Sundiata said:

This shield is curved, the version used by 0 A.D.'s Kushites is flat.

9 hours ago, Sundiata said:

Yeah, my thoughts. I don't think trees of the size necessary to create a solid wood shield of that size even exist in Northern/central Sudan. I don't think solid wood was used by many people anywhere (it's super-heavy, and easily splits after a while).

Solid wooden shields covered by painted leather were used by the classical Greeks (aspis), Romans (scutum, clipeus), and in the Middle Ages (kite shield), but they were uncomfortably heavy (e.g. 10 kg); a wicker frame covered with leather is strong but much lighter.

9 hours ago, Sundiata said:

The shields are  good as they are now.

Are they? Could someone post a screenshot of the back of the shields?

9 hours ago, Sundiata said:

I always assumed dyed ostrich feathers. I suspect they might have been attached to small metal rods to keep them straight like that (pure conjecture here)

Metal? Wouldn't leather or cloth be easier to work with?

9 hours ago, Sundiata said:

Solid coloured cattle definitely existed though, the patchy ones are just a lot more common (in Kush at least).

Not just in Kush; elsewhere pure coloured cattle existed but was rare too; they were typically valued and had cultic importance (e.g. a spotless white cow as a sacrifice for Iuno; a pure golden cow in Israel; etc.).

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I remember reading the scutum was not solid wood, but rather laminated wood. There is a difference. One is a solid piece and the latter is achieved with layers of wood called plies. It's also possible the aspis was constructed in strips of wood and shaped on a rudimentary lathe. But there are few actual examples of either shield since the wood decays.

[Sundiata]

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

This shield is curved, the version used by 0 A.D.'s Kushites is flat.

And these ones are flat as well:

Also clearly made up of vertical segments, just the same as our Napatan temple guard (which means ours is perfect ), except for the square golden shield decoration with double cartouche... But that's clearly a royal thing...

 

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

Are they?

So, the answer is yes  

 

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

Metal? Wouldn't leather or cloth be easier to work with?

Maybe you should take another look at the Kushite horse trappings... And Kushite metalworking in general... They had no limits  lol 

These are Kushite plume-holders. Yes, plume-holders... For horses... Yes, horses...  It was fixed on top of their head... Yes, their heads.... As you can see, they're both bronze (which is in fact a metal  )

 

Now go back and take a look at that beautiful New Kingdom Egyptian chariot scene from Nubia (that we've shared about 83 times in this thread by now  ):

Spoiler

Notice the large golden lions on the horse crown? So why wouldn't they add some thin metal rods for stability in the feathers? I'd do it. Makes your feathers look fabulous, like all the time...

So you also see that my interpretation of the Kushite horse crown was actually a rather modest one  

Edited January 25, 2018 by Sundiata

[Nescio]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I remember reading the scutum was not solid wood, but rather laminated wood. There is a difference. One is a solid piece and the latter is achieved with layers of wood called plies. It's also possible the aspis was constructed in strips of wood and shaped on a rudimentary lathe. But there are few actual examples of either shield since the wood decays.

With “solid wood” I didn't necessarily intend to imply it was made from a single piece of wood, I meant to contrast a shield that had a layer of wood everywhere (“solid wood”) with those that had only a wooden frame (rim and one or two central beams made of wood, not the space in between) or used wicker instead of wood. Very few ancients shields have survived indeed, but we also have a few descriptions (e.g. Polybius). And yes, wooden shields could be made from glueing together vertical wooden planks or by laminating thin layers of wood.

To clarify, my “solid wood or wicker” question is about these oblong shields:

13 hours ago, wackyserious said:

@Sundiata So this will be our guys?

Not about the shorter shields with a horizontal bottom (which do seem to be made from wood).

11 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Maybe you should take another look at the Kushite horse trappings... And Kushite metalworking in general... They had no limits  lol 

These are Kushite plume-holders. Yes, plume-holders... For horses... Yes, horses...  It was fixed on top of their head... Yes, their heads.... As you can see, they're both bronze (which is in fact a metal  )

Now go back and take a look at that beautiful New Kingdom Egyptian chariot scene from Nubia (that we've shared about 83 times in this thread by now  ):

Notice the large golden lions on the horse crown? So why wouldn't they add some thin metal rods for stability in the feathers? I'd do it. Makes your feathers look fabulous, like all the time...

So you also see that my interpretation of the Kushite horse crown was actually a rather modest one  

Thanks for the clarification, I was inquiring out of curiosity, not because I disagreed with metal

[Sundiata]

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

With “solid wood” I didn't necessarily intend to imply it was made from a single piece of wood

Ah...

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

To clarify, my “solid wood or wicker” question is about these oblong shields:

To be technical, they could be any of four types:

• plain hide with a stick running down the central spine
• wicker, overspun with hide
• wood frame with possible ribs overspun with hide
• "solid wood", like the thyreos, overpun with hide

[wackyserious]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone Gameplay-wise do you think it would be bad to mix your leopard and lion pelt textures in one unit?The same variants goes for Nubian archers, except for the basic rank.

In my opinion, spearmen have their large shields which is a major distinctive feat.

What do you think?

Edited January 25, 2018 by wackyserious

[Skhorn]

2 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Those terrain textures seems quite suspicious... are those new o it is that i never use the savannah textures?

[wackyserious]

 @Skhorn Desert cliff 2 under Desert Biome.

[wackyserious]

@Sundiata I slightly modified the bottom part of @wowgetoffyourcellphone's texture

 

[wackyserious]

@Sundiata What about wicker shields?

[Sundiata]

@wackyserious I like them! Wouldn't it look better if the diagonal "sash" has the same colour as the "loincloth"? It's supposed to represent one cloth, I think.

[Sundiata]

19 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

Oooh...! Nice texture!!! Ok, this comes to mind: could you use this texture for the back of the lower tier Nubian spearmen (front should stay cowhide), then @Nescio can sleep soundly  

Then make another shield-mesh, something in-between oval and rectangular, a little smaller than this thyreos sized one, with the wicker texture and give those shields to the Nuba javelinists:

 

Spoiler

Check tribal dude's shield:

 

The Azande (or Zande) a North Central African people living DR Congo, Central African Republic and South Sudan...

 

Second dude from the left is holding a makraka, which is quite similar to the khopesh. 

 

2nd dude from the left is casually playing a 5000 year old Egyptian harp like it's the most normal thing in the world...

 

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Sundiata

[wackyserious]

@Sundiata I'm not 3D savy , maybe  @stanislas69 could.