borg- Posted March 10, 2023 Report Share Posted March 10, 2023 If moves units automatically, then it's a cheating. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alre Posted March 10, 2023 Report Share Posted March 10, 2023 with this mod, they do. is it cheating @borg-? But honestly, isn't it boring to have the starting sequence play out by itself? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alre Posted March 10, 2023 Report Share Posted March 10, 2023 14 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: How about making archercav that know when to run away before getting damaged. I have to say, if this kind of mod gets out, it will be hard to put back in the bottle. 8 hours ago, Freagarach said: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/GettingStartedReinforcementLearning#Scenario nice to know we have that python library, it could be very handy for setting up gameplay test also. this is a task so trivial it is better programmed than machine learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted March 10, 2023 Report Share Posted March 10, 2023 2 hours ago, alre said: with this mod, they do. is it cheating @borg-? But honestly, isn't it boring to have the starting sequence play out by itself? Sure yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acanthis Posted March 11, 2023 Report Share Posted March 11, 2023 I'm not a fan of automation that is not included in the standard version or the community mod. Defending automation mods by saying that "it is ok because it is publicly available" doesn't take into account just how few people actually even visit the forums, let alone download anything they read about here. Simply because a mod is posted on the forums doesn't mean that the general playing public have any idea it exists at all. If there were a way to poll users the lobby, I would be surprised if more than say 20% have any idea that there are users employing scripts and heavily modified versions of the game. Moving to GUI enhancements, these begin to stretch my concept of fairness when they strip the whole game down to allow easier sight through trees, increasing the visual size of certain things (wasn't there a mod that did this with berries?), and otherwise making wholesale changes to the way the game is displayed to the user. With regards to this particular mod, the only thing I see as crossing the line is the advanced auto-queue by percentages. If this is a feature people want in the main game, fine, but otherwise it appears to offer a unique advantage over others who don't have this mod. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossenburg Posted March 11, 2023 Report Share Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) 20 hours ago, borg- said: If moves units automatically, then it's a cheating. i guess only quickstart does that? There's a possibility to always check for idle units and assign to work automatically so you never go idle at all or maybe its going too far? Edited March 11, 2023 by rossenburg 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted March 11, 2023 Report Share Posted March 11, 2023 Even if these can count as cheating, their advantage is limited. A nub equipped with this still cannot beat an OP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guerringuerrin Posted March 11, 2023 Report Share Posted March 11, 2023 23 hours ago, borg- said: If moves units automatically, then it's a cheating. agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guerringuerrin Posted March 11, 2023 Report Share Posted March 11, 2023 This discussion is very interesting because, as already mentioned, it affects game design and can lead to a better or worse gaming experience. I personally agree with @BreakfastBurrito_007 that an RTS game needs both strategy and skill and at some point the GUI design also affects the skill level needed to optimally execute certain tasks necessary to improve player performance. The ability to carry out multiple tasks at the same time is also an important aspect to take into account and if I have a mod that automatically shares my resources or automatically researches technologies, I get free time to carry out other tasks and that, in principle, is an advantage. The same with quick start: this feature may be better or worse optimized but it prevents the player from developing the necessary micro to carry out this task. Which is not just selecting units to give them orders. It is also to recognize the terrain, identify resources and make the decision to move them towards one woodline or another, etc... Managing and sharing is also an aspect that players need to develop and a mod that does this for us is necessarily removing an important aspect of the game... Ultimately: what gaming experience do we want? One in which the entire economy and "minor and repetitive tasks" are automated, or one in which we must do everything ourselves? Which of these enhancements should become standard in 0ad? I can't agree with a mod that moves my units automatically, or share resources, or let me know wich barrack is idle. 6 hours ago, Acanthis said: these begin to stretch my concept of fairness when they strip the whole game down to allow easier sight through trees, increasing the visual size of certain things Trees can be used to hide an army and protect it from easy attacks and force the adversary to try to get that army out of the forest. This is completely nullified by a mod where the trees turn into skinny purple sticks. I personally use two mods that I consider essential and, at this point, a standard to have a better gaming experience: autociv and boonGUI. autociv mainly because of the hotkeys (a standard in RTS games since AOE I), the hosting tools and the auto-queue (this is my exception to the rule) boonGUI because it greatly improves the GUI and provides important equipment information for resource management. In addition, it removes the color black, which I consider more of a bugfix, since the team that has a player with this color obtains a clear visual advantage over the other team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrik Posted March 11, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2023 Everything about that game is made so it's easy to make whatever. That's the magic about it and about open source collaborative projects in general. Too much overreaction... Nobody can truly believe you cheat because you have such @#$% script as QuickStart, or stuff in my mod that just saves you 3 clicks you make without any decision making (except if you are DoctorOrgans and want to gather chickens with females, you'll have to customize the code). I can even prove this subject is too fuzzy for anybody to really take a definite position: Example with @guerringuerrin you use boonGUI that actually display datas that the original GUI don't. You set yourself with a advantage. But you are against even displaying (with boonGUI just modified!!) idle barracks. Autociv save you time typing, which free your time for other tasks... I think we can agree that if the GUI makes the game more fun for you, you should use it. Also you can't "play" an AI so don't worry folks, fun is for life! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted March 11, 2023 Report Share Posted March 11, 2023 @guerringuerrin there is an unit silhouette option in the default game which allows you to see the units under the trees. But this just removes everything that can distract you so that you can work out the most efficient position of storehouses and whether a woodline is safe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guerringuerrin Posted March 11, 2023 Report Share Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) @Atrik My intention was not to state an absolute truth about what is cheating and what is not, but rather to emphasize what kind of gaming experience we want. Of course it's going to be different what I consider should be a standard than what you or any other player considers. And I do not pretend to be out of that contradiction, that's why I have mentioned what mods I use and why I use them. You are right that it is contradictory to use a mod that shows, for example, your team's resource information and at the same time to be against having an idle barracks list. In an AOE II forum there are players who consider that the 0ad auto-queue is absurd because it takes away the fun of the game and yet AOE II has an option for units to explore the map automatically... But I don't think it's about imposing one vision or another here. This is a discussion forum and, like any forum, its topics lead to discussions. For me it is a question of balance between game experience and fairness in the competition and it is thanks to the exchange through this medium that great improvements have been achieved in this regard. In relation to the quick-start I would also like to point out that what for you is only saving you three clicks for me is a small but important step in relation to the development of micro skills that can complicate many new players and that is carried out in a different way. for each player. It is enough to watch an OP match to notice that it is most likely that at least half of the players will execute this task in a different way. You don't have to be a DoctorOrgans. Quote Autociv save you time typing, which free your time for other tasks... I don't know what you mean by this. But using hotkeys to build buildings seems like a basic feature of any RTS to me. After Command & Conquer, every RTS I've played has hotkeys. 34 minutes ago, Yekaterina said: @guerringuerrin there is an unit silhouette option in the default game which allows you to see the units under the trees. But this just removes everything that can distract you so that you can work out the most efficient position of storehouses and whether a woodline is safe Ty, @Yekaterina, I am aware of that option and have it enabled and yet it is more difficult to micro an attack against an army hidden under a forest than it is to do it in the open Edited March 11, 2023 by guerringuerrin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrik Posted March 11, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) 39 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said: It is enough to watch an OP match to notice that it is most likely that at least half of the players will execute this task in a different way. You are right, but a successful GUI could still allow for empowerment and customization. I admit my Quick-start sequence even is customize for myself. As for fairness, as pointed out earlier by @Kampot, you can't make it a too serious goal, you wouldn't force everybody to play with the smallest screen resolution or to set everybody's mouse to the lowest dpi. (I agree to most of what you say, you have good points, but I still don't come with your conclusions) The more powerful the GUI, the less a bot has speed advantages over a player. So I can't agree on your approach on this. Anyway, I wanted to see if it was worth working on my mod just for me, or to work out how to make it good for other players that wished to have something like this. (Hence making the thread title click-bait) I see I was alone wishing for theses features. Edited March 11, 2023 by Atrik 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperion Posted March 11, 2023 Report Share Posted March 11, 2023 There are 2 points to be made. First, it's not up to the community at large to decide, only the players in a particular game. Asking the community for consensus is unimaginable anyway. Secondly, it can't be called cheating at all if you are open about your modifications. PS: psychedelic trees and velociraptor chickens are a no-go, at least for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.O.A.T Posted March 11, 2023 Report Share Posted March 11, 2023 It is interesting how many hypocrites are here to arguing how bad is making available for public some game mod providing some fancy stuff. It means nobody will make such flame-war for these not disclosing anything. Same story came to me when I revealed smurfs and so much hate... Smurfing is also another kind of cheating. @Atrikgo on, develop your mod and fsck everyone, do not disclose anything and let them live in dark. Play, enjoy and have big smile and relax. There will be always hater, trolls and stupid public. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrik Posted March 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2023 Just wanted to clarify, I did primarily the mod to enjoy my games more and for fun, not for having a edge over unsuspecting players. Auto-tribute was the first thing I ever coded, I would have done something less visible if the goal was really to "cheat", or even being unfair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted March 12, 2023 Report Share Posted March 12, 2023 7 hours ago, G.O.A.T said: It is interesting how many hypocrites are here to arguing how bad is making available for public some game mod providing some fancy stuff. It means nobody will make such flame-war for these not disclosing anything. Same story came to me when I revealed smurfs and so much hate... Smurfing is also another kind of cheating. @Atrikgo on, develop your mod and fsck everyone, do not disclose anything and let them live in dark. Play, enjoy and have big smile and relax. There will be always hater, trolls and stupid public. I don't understand why you guys get so stressed out, that's what I don't like about competitive play, people get obsessed with numbers and winning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreakfastBurrito_007 Posted March 12, 2023 Report Share Posted March 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said: I don't understand why you guys get so stressed out, that's what I don't like about competitive play, people get obsessed with numbers and winning. Ideally the fun comes from figuring out how to win vs other players and with other players. Ultimately this should not be stressful or else its not fun. I agree some people take things too far, I am not concerned about @Atrik's setup, I am just suggesting that we decide what things can and can't be automated before we lose parts of the game. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted March 12, 2023 Report Share Posted March 12, 2023 14 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: Ideally the fun comes from figuring out how to win vs other players and with other players. Ultimately this should not be stressful or else its not fun. I agree some people take things too far, I am not concerned about @Atrik's setup, I am just suggesting that we decide what things can and can't be automated before we lose parts of the game. That's good. But I always see that there is a lot of bickering and toxicity in the lobby, there are many players with little sportsmanship, I with 0AD lack that as I look at 0AD as a hobby, where I am helping to build/design the game. I see it more as a form of relaxation. Watching gameplays relaxes me, I like watching villagers building. Ya compete takes away those elements and involves erasing the immersion and subtracting the flaws of the game or the gameplay to use them to win. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrik Posted March 17, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2023 This thread inspired me to make of my mod, as customizable as possible.@guerringuerrin starting sequences vary from players to players, you are right so now you can make it your own: @Mentula arbitrary constants that I've put in the code are now customizable: Buttons and customizable shortcuts. You are always in control of everything. All original GUI features works along side proGUI. If you already know how to boom, understanding all features takes less than 1 game. I'll gladly take features suggestions if you try it, as now that I own the code, some features are trivial to add/improve. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guerringuerrin Posted March 17, 2023 Report Share Posted March 17, 2023 I wonder I could make my own mod for the game unfortunately I lack certain knowledge necessary for it. I hope someday you or someone else could explain to me the basics. I learn fast! Congratulations on the hard work. I am glad that the debate is making you want to do even better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrik Posted March 17, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2023 6 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said: I wonder I could make my own mod for the game unfortunately I lack certain knowledge necessary for it Yes! For me BoonGUI had good structure and a powerful class "BoonGUIStats" for me to get the datas I wanted and do my dream features! It have it's own mess but you can navigate through it. Not sure reworking another mod would be advised by others but for what I wanted to do, it was perfect. 13 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said: you or someone else could explain to me the basics. I'll be so glad to help you! But not sure I'm the right person, as I mostly don't understand what I'm doing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossenburg Posted March 17, 2023 Report Share Posted March 17, 2023 26 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said: I wonder I could make my own mod for the game unfortunately I lack certain knowledge necessary for it. I hope someday you or someone else could explain to me the basics. I learn fast! Congratulations on the hard work. I am glad that the debate is making you want to do even better. https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Modding_Guide 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobbi Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 On 17/03/2023 at 3:05 PM, rossenburg said: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Modding_Guide Unfortunately some parts are outdated and not valid for a26 anymore. I tried following the tutorial to make an own unit. But I think some data are in different folders or are not available anymore. But on the other hand it still explains a lot of the general structure and one can start exploring to mod the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeh Posted May 2, 2023 Report Share Posted May 2, 2023 On 09/03/2023 at 12:48 AM, Atrik said: I love this proGui. Something is maybe strange for me. When i was in Phase III and pressed in Barack at Upgrade Infantry i takes no time. Really? If this cheating then? Did you tried ? " Want to try it? https://github.com/4trik/proGUI/ Maintained version with @rossenburg: https://gitlab.com/4trik/proGUI " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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