Introducing the Official community mod for 0 A.D. Empires Ascendant

[alre]

3 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Wrong discussion. 

it's called "introducing a new subject".

[alre]

what about changing the multiplier for inf spears and pikes? 5x maybe?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@Philip the Swaggerless nice idea, I don’t really see any major conflict with Phillip II, since the Phillip II’s aura only effects champions.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Also If anyone has an Agis idea, I’d be happy to hear it.

[chrstgtr]

2 hours ago, Dakara said:

3)Agis 3 stop the production of ennemy building in a large area around him.

This sounds new and fun

[Fabius]

20 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

work on champ sword cav first

There is only one faction with champion sword cavalry and that's Rome, and is arguably the best thing they have going for them currently. And its not the only strong melee champion cavalry either, Seleucid cataphracts can stop Consular quite well, so can Persian Bactrian lancers, which is reasonable given the anti cav bonus of lancers. Also they can destroy everything else too. 

That being said, I do think citizen spearmen should have more utility against heavy cavalry, maybe a simple multiplier increase would help, go from 3X to 4X. Or a slower 3.5X. You could make it a blacksmith upgrade as well.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

49 minutes ago, Fabius said:

There is only one faction with champion sword cavalry and that's Rome, and is arguably the best thing they have going for them currently. And its not the only strong melee champion cavalry either, Seleucid cataphracts can stop Consular quite well, so can Persian Bactrian lancers, which is reasonable given the anti cav bonus of lancers. Also they can destroy everything else too. 

https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests/22/diffs

this addresses melee champ concerns as well as ranged champs and ranged CS cav.

[chrstgtr]

49 minutes ago, Fabius said:

There is only one faction with champion sword cavalry and that's Rome, and is arguably the best thing they have going for them currently. And its not the only strong melee champion cavalry either, Seleucid cataphracts can stop Consular quite well, so can Persian Bactrian lancers, which is reasonable given the anti cav bonus of lancers. Also they can destroy everything else too. 

That being said, I do think citizen spearmen should have more utility against heavy cavalry, maybe a simple multiplier increase would help, go from 3X to 4X. Or a slower 3.5X. You could make it a blacksmith upgrade as well.

Gauls also have it. I said it as an example of how the problem should be addressed (i.e., each unit type should be addressed one by one). I didn't say whether it should or should not change. (I do, however, think melee champ cav all need to change because the only units that can counter them are champ spear, which are way less mobile and therefore can't actually counter them, and other melee champ cav, which most civs don't have).

Also, Romans are great and are a very diverse civ. Yeah, champ sword cav are their best unit, but I would argue that is a top 3 unit in the game and one that is OP. 

[BeTe]

fyi , regarding p1 cav nerf, there's recent tournament game between Weirdjokes and me. I built cavalry and tried to harass but they seemed useless against infantry slingers with few spearmans. I only lost build time, resources and my attention on them. I did @#$% up macro game, but point is I got literary nothing from cavalry. Not sure what I could do with them better.  

However, I don't find this match is high level, but maybe you guys can see something interesting for balancing.

Cheers.

Edited November 29, 2022 by BeTe

[Feldfeld]

23 minutes ago, BeTe said:

fyi , regarding p1 cav nerf, there's recent tournament game between Weirdjokes and me. I built cavalry and tried to harass but they seemed useless against infantry slingers with few spearmans. I only lost build time, resources and my attention on them. I did @#$% up macro game, but point is I got literary nothing from cavalry. Not sure what I could do with them better.  

However, I don't find this match is high level, but maybe you guys can see something interesting for balancing.

Cheers.

You could have done:
- Better build order
- Coming with more cav (a requirement at that timing unless you spotted a weakness by scouting)
- Focus on disrupting food income (idling women near CC while not staying under its fire, raid the additional berry patch until the slingers come then retreat, force slingers to stay on the berries unless you come back, alternate checking food sources)

Of course against this defensive position and that player it takes good skills to make it. Not many players can do it. I'm curious of what would have happened if I were in your spot.

[BeTe]

Not sure this is topic to have these discussions, so sorry in advance.

But I don't understand first 2 points, what BO would be appropriate and how to come with more cav? I tried without stable to make cav from CC, but then I am behind in women and food production issues later...

I tried to disrupt food, but then cav got injured and I had to heal them. Next time, he used teleportation technique from CC and put slingers and spearmans in my face. He was on stone near cc... And slingers have too much range for cav to harass them. I lost 2 horses then I think. He did nice pull only part of women that are on side of CC where attack happens, remaining half just harvest normaly while I lose health (=time). That secondary berries he harvested while I was healing cavs. 

The only cav that I found useful are Persian 60m range cav. Especially in p2 when you can upgrade them to 70m range.  But still , should be easy to defend. 

[Feldfeld]

15 minutes ago, BeTe said:

But I don't understand first 2 points, what BO would be appropriate and how to come with more cav? I tried without stable to make cav from CC, but then I am behind in women and food production issues later...

Basically look at my game against LetswaveaBook in the tournament. If I didn't get attacked, I would have gone once I had 8 cavs total (so after a batch of 3 cav are trained)

16 minutes ago, BeTe said:

I tried to disrupt food, but then cav got injured and I had to heal them.

That's because
- Your opponent had a few units inside CC so this shoots more arrows
- You stayed too long under despite that
- You had a low number of cav so CC arrows don't get split and that makes you have to go back sooner as cav gets in low health sooner.
Of course unit management is tricky there especially if you are against this opponent.

After you went back I stopped watching because from there you lost the timing to pretend making damage. Since you didn't disrupt enough on your first go then the economy advantage of your opponent is too strong and he can defend the rest

22 minutes ago, BeTe said:

The only cav that I found useful are Persian 60m range cav. Especially in p2 when you can upgrade them to 70m range.  But still , should be easy to defend.

Well tell this to vinme's opponents he got himself a good elo by only using persian archer cav strategy pretty much. Not saying it's easy of course it takes skills to do that strategy properly.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@chrstgtr the noble cavalry are spear cavalry. Rome is the only civ with champ swordcav, and they are pretty OP.

Edited November 30, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[chrstgtr]

31 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@chrstgtr the noble cavalry are spear cavalry. Rome is the only civ with champ swordcav, and they are pretty OP.

Well today I learned. Anyways, I think all melee champ cav is OP because most civs can’t counter them. 
 

but my general point is a grand solution patch that makes everyone happy probably doesn’t exist but a more narrow patch probably does (ie how only fire cav were changed last alpha)

Edited November 30, 2022 by chrstgtr

[alre]

I believe that the "small incremental changes" philosophy was more useful when changes came from alpha to alpha, and a lot of different changes would stack, some of which weren't much thought trough from a gameplay perspective.

with community mod all changes are gameplay changes, and even when they were daring enough, they proved to be rather conservative. I don't think we need a big cavalry change, but I don't think a big change (cavalry or other) would be too risk to take.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, alre said:

I believe that the "small incremental changes" philosophy was more useful when changes came from alpha to alpha, and a lot of different changes would stack, some of which weren't much thought trough from a gameplay perspective.

with community mod all changes are gameplay changes, and even when they were daring enough, they proved to be rather conservative. I don't think we need a big cavalry change, but I don't think a big change (cavalry or other) would be too risk to take.

Indeed, I think the community mod would be the place where you can be daring, since it's not the official release and can be easily reverted or refined. I'm not saying huge sweeping changes, but modifying a unit's role a bit, going for a 10% change instead of a more conservative 5% change, etc. 

[chrstgtr]

I can’t speak for everyone, but I would like to see basically all of the community mod changes accepted into the regular game for a27. Only one I am iffy on is the ptol building cost/build time change. Maybe more testing is needed. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

43 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

I can’t speak for everyone, but I would like to see basically all of the community mod changes accepted into the regular game for a27. Only one I am iffy on is the ptol building cost/build time change. Maybe more testing is needed. 

My understanding is that it will be incorporated into a27 after more important engine changes and stuff.

[chrstgtr]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

My understanding is that it will be incorporated into a27 after more important engine changes and stuff.

  

On 18/06/2022 at 3:58 AM, wraitii said:

To summarise: we'll give you the keys to the car to make A26 a more fun game. By the time A27 comes, we can hopefully use your work (and our own) as a good template for a better game out of the box.

If this experiment is a success, we may reproduce it after A27, but time will tell.

 

I think it still needs to be ported over and incorporated. My understanding is that the mod won't be a27 because other technical stuff needs to happen, but we could use the mod as a testing ground for things that may or may not be incorporated into a27. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

58 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

I think it still needs to be ported over and incorporated. My understanding is that the mod won't be a27 because other technical stuff needs to happen, but we could use the mod as a testing ground for things that may or may not be incorporated into a27. 

yes, engine changes and other important stuff (hopefully some improvements to performance ). Its very unlikely that the mod can be copy-pasted, but something similar could easily be rewritten.

[Stan`]

Actually someone is looking into porting it for A27. A27 is planned for Feb 2023 and we had very little devs active so I don't know if there'll be major performance changes.

 

https://irclogs.wildfiregames.com/%230ad-dev/2022-12-01-QuakeNet-%230ad-dev.log

https://irclogs.wildfiregames.com/%230ad-dev/2022-12-01-QuakeNet-%230ad-dev.log

[BeTe]

I like this game Edwarf vs Dakara, as example for community-mod balancing.

Edwarf used fact that CC is cheaper and took map control by 2 quick expansions which is crucial on such map with so small amount of wood. I guess Dakara lost (mostly) b/c of not preventing that. 

So can we say if he were more active in p2, he would be in much better position? Can we say that this could be small indicator that changes are good for making early/mid game more active? 

(I don't want to be smarty newbie, just to initiate analysis of changes.  )

cc @Dakara @Edwarf

Edited December 1, 2022 by BeTe

[BeTe]

@Dakara Hmmm, as I can see he got nothing with early cav... Killed some women, but you rebuilt that easily so you were quiet equal after that fights on min 13-15...  Even thought you fought around his Temple... He had 20 cav lost on min 15! After that if you have built CC with defenses on wood lines on left from main CC instead walls, I guess match would go totally different. Also he pushed hard with original CC thru the middle. He had that exposed Temple and Towers in your face and all that with main CC  

On min 17. you had no available wood lines and 25 wood in stock and basepush treat from 2 sides. You were surounded without wood.

That's what I see. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

9 hours ago, Stan` said:

we had very little devs active so I don't know if there'll be major performance changes.

Thats unfortunate.

[Fabius]

On 29/11/2022 at 8:35 PM, chrstgtr said:

Romans are great and are a very diverse civ. Yeah, champ sword cav are their best unit, but I would argue that is a top 3 unit in the game and one that is OP. 

well they do have diverse melee options, but their ranged section is anything but diverse