===[COMMITTED]=== Carthaginian Unit Textures

[wackyserious]

@stanislas69 Were the helmets that the Carthaginian units use a part of your hellenistic helmet upgrade?

[Stan`]

@wackyserious Nope

[wackyserious]

Maybe those helmets can get an upgrade too, not really knowledgeable on Carthaginian military equipment but the helmets look very similar to attic helmets (they might in fact be attic )

[Stan`]

40 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

Maybe those helmets can get an upgrade too, not really knowledgeable on Carthaginian military equipment but the helmets look very similar to attic helmets (they might in fact be attic )

Definitely after A23 is released

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, wackyserious said:

Maybe those helmets can get an upgrade too, not really knowledgeable on Carthaginian military equipment but the helmets look very similar to attic helmets (they might in fact be attic )

Many of the Carthaginian units are using Thracian style Hellenistic helms, which I have seen on many reference images.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

This tower, with Ptolemaic shields, should be used for the Ptolemies elephant too.

[Stan`]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone I'll see what I can do

[Lion.Kanzen]

15 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

Carthago delenda est... but not today...

 

 

[wackyserious]

@Sundiata I need to familiarize myself with how the ancient Libyans dressed during the time that their territory was under Carthaginian influence. Which tribe did the Carthaginians recruited their phalanx infantry from?

Also tagging individuals who might want to share their insight, others are also encouraged to share their knowledge.

@Anaxandridas ho Skandiates @Genava55 @Nescio @wowgetoffyourcellphone @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded

[Lion.Kanzen]

the first thing a found was tbis but I'm not convince. the greek style sounds reasonable, even some levantine style...

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Hanatim_Libim_(Libyan_Spearmen)

[Lion.Kanzen]

Spoiler

The Carthaginians had relatively large numbers of Libyans serving in their armies during the Punic Wars, although it is unclear whether they served as subject allies, or as mercenaries. They seem to have been equipped in typical late Hellenistic style, probably by the Carthaginian state; The Chemtou relief showing Linothorax armour, large aspis type shields as well as Thureos, and a coin from Spain struck by Hamilcar Barca around 237 BC showing the Macedonian style low crested helmet.

Hannibal re-equipped his Libyan (i.e. North African) troops with captured Roman equipment following his victories in Italy. These figures can be used as 1st Punic War or early 2nd Punic War troops. You can also mix them with our ‘Hannibal’s African Veterans’ box set, to represent those veterans who did not wear captured Roman arms (whether by choice or not!) for greater variety in your armies.

This pack contains 4 metal figures complete with aspis shields. You will need to supply your own wire spears (or use the spare pilums from our box sets)

https://agemaminiatures.co.uk/shop/liby-phoenician-spearmen/

[Lion.Kanzen]

https://dailyhistory.org/How_Did_the_Libyans_Impact_Ancient_Egypt%3F

the old Lybians from timeframe Aristeia are very different(fashion) from this.

the influence of Cyrene and Carthage   was overwhelming

 

Quote

The Libyan foot were the most reliable element in the army. Most fought in close order, although it seems likely that Libyans were also included amongst the lonchophoroi, Hannibal's specialist javelin skirmishers. (Many translations of Polybius render this inappropriately as 'pikemen'.) The heavy infantry began the war dressed in a version of the standard equipment of Hellenistic infantry. They wore bronze helmets and body armour, probably made from stiffened linen, carried large round shields and probably fought with spears. In 217 BC Hannibal re-equipped them with the spoils of the Roman dead at Trebia and Trasimene. It is not clear whether this means that he gave them only Roman defensive armour of helmet, mail cuirass, and oval scutum, or whether they also adopted the piluiti and gladius. The Libyans were well disciplined and drilled, capable of complex manoeuvres, and in every respect the equals, and sometimes the superiors, of any Roman legionaries. If there were any Libyan or Liby-Phoenician cavalry with Hannibal's army, then they would have fought in close formation and carried Hellenistic-style equipment, not too dissimilar from Roman cavalry.

https://erenow.net/ww/cannae-fields-of-battle/8.php

Edited April 14, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

Quote

Most scholars lean towards the idea that units consisting purely of Carthaginians were armed in the manner of late hoplites, meaning Hellenic helmets, linothoraxes or leather armor, round or oval shields, swords, and spears (perhaps 3 meters long). Libyan units are similarly described. This sedentary, agricultural people (related to the Numidians and Moors) settled lands around Carthage. The Libyans displayed exceptional tenacity, resilience to hardship, and extraordinary fortitude. That’s why a Libyan infantry unit, of all the Carthaginian ones, is displayed on the Carthaginian Combat Unit piece – in recognition of their achievements and the fact that they had always constituted the core of Carthaginian forces.

According to Roman sources, many of the Libyan infantry soldiers - as a consequence of the first battles against Romans - armed themselves with Roman weapons. Scholars are sometimes doubtful of this, though, as the Roman armament was best suited for the manipular system, not dense hoplite phalanxes. Perhaps this belief originated in the fact that a considerable number of Libyan soldiers possibly dressed as Romans to prepare an ambush at the Battle of Cannae. According to the respectable Ardant du Picq, the disguised Libyan units deceived the center of the Roman forces, flanked and struck them, thus intensifying havoc among the Romans.

Besides heavy infantry, the Libyans provided excellent spear-hurling light units called lonchophoroi. It is also worth noting that the Libyans furnished the Carthaginian cavalry with contingents of long-spear armed cavalry. Such contingents were also provided by Liby-Phoenicians – a people related to Carthaginians linguistically and religiously, although lacking Carthaginian civil rights. Their heavy cavalry used helmets, Hellenic armor, and long spears. The Libyan infantry constituted the core of the Carthaginian forces. The rest of the Carthaginian infantry consisted of contingents of allies and mercenaries of all sorts.

Carthage was also known for its extensive use of mercenary units (who for the most part weren’t mercenaries in the strictest meaning of the word, but more like subject units from territories that Carthage had conquered or allied with). Apart from the impressively diverse Libyans and well trained Liby-Phoenicians and Carthaginians, other countries provided Hannibal with packs of warriors, who over time became the soldiers of Hannibal’s own army: Iberians, Italians, Celts (Gauls), Balearic slingers, Greeks, and Punics.

[wackyserious]

I am concerned regarding their clothing, I was assuming that they wore clothing in the Carthaginian manner since these soldiers were often referred to as, Libyan-Phoenicians. But if they will be fashioned in the North African manner, it will be similar to how Numidian nobles were interpreted in Europa Barbarorum II.

[Genava55]

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Noshei-Khereb_Lubiyim_(Libyan_Swordsmen)

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Dorekim_Lubiyim_Meshurianim_(Late_Libyan_Infantry)

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Mashlihei-Hanitim_Lubiyim_(Libyan_Skirmishers)

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Dorekim_Bashetulim_(Carthaginian_Settler_Infantry)

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/HaParasim_HaB'hurim_(Carthaginian_Elite_Cavalry)

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Dorkim_Garamantim_(Garamantine_Infantry)#EB2

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Dorkim_Libi-Ponnim_(Liby-Phoenician_Infantry)#EB2

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Dorkim_Maurim_(Maure_Infantry)#EB2

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Mitnag'him_Numidim_(Numidian_Skirmishers)#EB2

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Gldgmtk_(Numidian_Nobles)#EB2

Album of screenshots, Numidian and Carthaginian roster in the second half: https://imgur.com/a/18bCK

Probable depiction of Lybian skirmishers (look similar to the Mashlihei Hanitim Lubiyim of EB2):

Spoiler

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Genava55

[Genava55]

Screenshots:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wackyserious]

The Carthaginians were not happy upon hearing the news that the Roman Republic has set foot in Northern Africa.

[Lion.Kanzen]

we have long sleeve short tunic (3D)?

[Sundiata]

9 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Which tribe did the Carthaginians recruited their phalanx infantry from?

Carthaginians recruited Mauretanians (archers), Numidians (cavalry), Libyans (skirmishers) and I believe even some Garamantians. The backbone of the Carthaginian army was apparently made up of Liby-Phoenecians. Basically urban Libyans who have adopted Punic culture and were equipped similarly as Punic troops, with noticeable Hellenic influence. 

Here's a nice collection of art references of the Carthaginian army, including Punic troops, native troops and mercenaries. I'll start with the illustrations from the Osprey title "The Carthaginians 6th–2nd Century BC". Some have been shared before, but these ones are high quality, and accompanied by the original text:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

Italic mercs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These are from random sources on the net:

Libyan-Phoenician warriors in the time of the Punic wars

 

Hanno 'the Great' addresses the mutineers, 

 

 

 

We need some big curly beards  

 

 

There was also a black presence  

 

Punic era facial masks indicate the practice of scarification, probably among Libyans

 

 

Punic proper?

 

 

I would argue for a tech that unlocks Romanized Liby-Phoenecians. Otherwise, the depiction of mail on Punic units might be frowned upon. A purely Libyan unit, without any Hellenic or Punic influence could be a nice cheap skirmishing unit (cannon fodder). 

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Sundiata

[Sundiata]

And for the readers: 

"The Carthaginians 6th–2nd Century BC" : ELI201.pdf

[wackyserious]

44 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

we have long sleeve short tunic (3D)?

We do not have a mesh yet. Alexandermb mentioned that he wanted to add variety to the new mesh.

[Sundiata]

@wackyserious, ooooh, found a beautiful painting of the Carthaginian Sacred Band supported by some Libyan skirmishers (or perhaps even Gaetuli, I'm not sure):

[wackyserious]

I have been reading the materials that you guys sent. I found this particular comment to be interesting.

Quote

Interestingly,themembers of the Sacred Band,according to Plutarch, enjoyed' the protection of their iron corselets and helmets' (Timo/eon,28.1).(Fields-Carre Collection)

Attached was an image of the Macedonian Iron corselet from the Royal Tombs of Vergina.

[Nescio]

On 4/14/2019 at 6:48 AM, wackyserious said:

I need to familiarize myself with how the ancient Libyans dressed during the time that their territory was under Carthaginian influence.

In ancient contexts Libya is the continent west of the Nile (roughly equivalent to the modern term North Africa), whereas Africa is a fertile coastal region (roughly equivalent to modern Tunisia). Libyans could be applied to any people living in Libya, or it could mean the non-Greek, non-Punic, non-Roman population (Garamantes, Massylii, Masaesyli, Mauri, and other Berber tribes).

Libyo-Phoenician is a modern term to describe the culture that includes both Berber (Libyan) and Canaanite (Phoenician) elements. The Romans did not distinguish between Carthaginians, Phoenicians, or Libyo-Phoenicians, all were simply called Poeni (Punics).

Anyway, your actual question was about clothing. Although some Greek authors imply ancient Libyans wore animal skins or leather garments (e.g. Herodotus Histories VII.71), in our timeframe they wore tunics, just like most people around the Mediterranean. Affluent Carthaginian citizens presumably wore long, heavily dyed tunics, the most famous product of Tyre and Carthage; hoplites probably wore shorter, more practical Greek-style tunics; Roman texts consider loose, unbelted tunics typically Libyan.

Spoiler

On 4/14/2019 at 9:31 AM, wackyserious said:

I am concerned regarding their clothing, I was assuming that they wore clothing in the Carthaginian manner since these soldiers were often referred to as, Libyan-Phoenicians. But if they will be fashioned in the North African manner, it will be similar to how Numidian nobles were interpreted in Europa Barbarorum II.

These intrepretations you showed all have trousers; I highly doubt that's accurate; trousers were something typical of horse-riding Indo-European peoples (Persians, Scythians, Celts); I don't know of any evidence that Libyans or Phoenicians wore trousers in Antiquity.

On 4/14/2019 at 6:48 AM, wackyserious said:

Which tribe did the Carthaginians recruited their phalanx infantry from?

Not limited to any specific tribe(s); Carthage obtained mercenaries from basically throughout the entire Western Mediterranean and occassionally beyond (Cyrene, Sparta).

The core of their army consisted of a few thousand elite citizen hoplites (whom Diodorus Siculus calls the “Sacred Band”), similar to Greek city states (Syracuse, Sparta, Corinth, Athens). This also meant that if an army was annihilated (e.g. at the Himera in 480 BC or at the Crimissus c. 340 BC), Carthage was crippled for a generation. During the 3rd C BC, Carthage increasingly used mercenary-only armies, with several mercenary revolts and wars as a consequence.

Also, phalanx (ἡ φάλαγξ) simply means “line of battle” or “battle-array” and could refer to any heavy (melee) infantry formation.

13 hours ago, Sundiata said:

@wackyserious, ooooh, found a beautiful painting of the Carthaginian Sacred Band supported by some Libyan skirmishers (or perhaps even Gaetuli, I'm not sure):

Source(s), please? It's a nice image indeed, however, I'm not sure solid metal shields were actually used in combat (metal rims and shield bosses, certainly, but shields entirely made out of metal tend to get very heavy and unwieldy).

[Sundiata]

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Source(s), please?

"Carthaginian infantry fighting in a phalanx with Libyan skirmishers ahead of them, 3rd century BC - art by Andrei Karaschuk (А Каращук)" That's about as far as I get when trying to search more info on the painting...

 

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

however, I'm not sure solid metal shields were actually used in combat (metal rims and shield bosses, certainly, but shields entirely made out of metal tend to get very heavy and unwieldy).

Huh??? Some Aspis were covered in a thin sheet of bronze, but I know you know that... Since these guys were recruited from among the wealthiest, and their armor was described as splendorous, the artist made an understandable choice. I'm aware that some would argue for a white shield, because of Plutarch, but the mention of white shields seemed to be a general Carthaginian citizenry thing, not necessarily sacred band. 

I Agree with the rest, although the term "Berber" is arguably even more ambiguous than "Libyan".

 

Edited April 15, 2019 by Sundiata