The Kingdom of Kush: A proper introduction [Illustrated]

[Stan`]

It also doesn't give credits for it :/

[Sundiata]

1 hour ago, Stan` said:

It also doesn't give credits for it :/

It wasn't even such a qualitative video. Lot's of little mistakes. But I just had to share because of the art... Even though they weren't credited, it's still nice to know that a quarter of a million people saw their art. 

[Sundiata]

On 26/9/2020 at 10:28 AM, Nescio said:

(kush would reuse the pers (i.e. Assyrian) ram actor)

Oops, I guess I saw this but read over it. The Carthaginian/Iberian ram is far more generic and therefore more appropriate for the Kushites. The Assyrian ram is way too specific/iconic. Anyway, we'll just try to make something unique for the Kushites in Alpha 25. 

 

A few more lion statues from the Lion Kingdom (literally found from the northern most, to the southern most provinces of the Kingdom):

Lion-headed spout for a wine press:

 

And another lion-headed outlet for a press:

 

 

 

Oldie but a goldie:

 

The Meroitic statue behind the lion is very interesting as well. Local Kushite manufacture that contrasts strongly with other millennia long classical Nile Valley principles in statuary. This piece is heavily influenced by Greco-Roman traditions:

 

And a few Kushite sphinxes:

Sphinx of King Aspelta

 

Sphinx from the Amun Temple at Gebel Barkal, Napata:

 

Sphinx of King Senkamanisken:

 

Sphinx from Meroë:

 

This one is actually from Karnak, Thebes, Egypt, and is a 25th Dynasty Sphinx depicting the Kushite princess Shepenwepet II, High Priestess of Amun, and daughter of King Piye:

[Abdominin]

@Sundiata, allow me to go off topic but do you have any book source that talks about the Naval warships of Kush? I heard they got some Ptolmey ships and employed it as part of their fleet (as seen in the game) but can you share a source? Ancient African civilizations seem to be lacking in information about their naval prowess despite the abundance of larger rivers and waters. I was shocked to see pre colonial West African ships armed with as many as 20 swivel canons and additional self propelled artillery. I have seen the images of the Kushite boats and crafts you shared but if you know any book that talks about the ships Kushites used; especially their warships or the Ptolmey's ships they obtained, please share. I however, read about Piye's 2 or 3 sea battles against Egypt (one where he arranged a battle formation for all his ships).

[Sundiata]

2 hours ago, Abdominin said:

@Sundiata, allow me to go off topic but do you have any book source that talks about the Naval warships of Kush? I heard they got some Ptolmey ships and employed it as part of their fleet (as seen in the game) but can you share a source?

The Ptolemaic ship in-game was a placeholder that has been replaced by 2 dedicated Nile boats in Alpha 24. The decision to temporarily use the Ptolemaic ship was based on their proximity and interactions with each other, but I haven't seen any literal sources stating that Kushites ever used Ptolemaic triremes. 

One interesting note here is regarding one of the rarely mentioned, yet one of the most difficult periods in Ptolemaic history, namely the Great Revolt of Thebes, during which a short lived native Upper Egyptian Dynasty ruled Egypt from Aswan (close to the border with Lower Nubia) to Asyut (Middle Egypt), for almost 20 years, from 205 BC to 186 BC. The first of 2 Upper Egyptian pharaohs during this period, Horwennefer reconquered Upper Egypt from the Ptolemies with Kushite military support. 

See: "Second decree of Philae: demotic and hieroglyphic text on the outside wall of the mammisi (temple of royal birth) at Philae.", 186 BC:

"When it was announced to his Majesty through the mouth of a friend of his Majesty, who loves the king, by the chief of the cavalry Aristonikos son of Aristonikos, concerning Komanos, who is one of the first friends of his Majesty: "A battle took place in the South in the area of Thebes with the impious man, the fiend of the gods Hr–wnf and the troops of the Ethiopians, who had united with him, slaying them, seizing as captive this wicked men alive,"

[...]

"On the 3rd of Mesore it was announced to his Majesty: Hr–wnf has been captured alive in the battle against him in year 19, on 24 Epeiph. His son was killed, the commander of the army of impious men, together with the leaders of the Ethiopians who fought on his side. He was brought to the place where the king was. He was punished by death for the crimes, which he had committed, and so were the other criminals, those who had rebelled in the sedition, which they had made."

Also important to note that the revolt started as early as 207 BC in Edfu, basically on the border with Lower Nubia... And according to the linked paper, after the final defeat of Ankhwennefer, Horwennefer's successor, he fled south, possibly/(probably) to Nubia. 

See: https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/files/TheGreatRevoltoftheEgyptians.pdf

@Nescio & @Genava55, see that paper, it says something interesting about the possible causes of the revolt. Stating that "native Egyptians were armed and trained in order to fight in the Macedonian phalanx. They became self–confident and, when they found a leader, they revolted.". Which may mean that Kushites weren't just fighting against the Macedonian phalanx, but actually fought alongside Egyptians trained in this formation, which in turn might explain the adoption of long pikes or even specifically the sarissa among the Meroitic Kushites as well. Just a thought... 

 

2 hours ago, Abdominin said:

I was shocked to see pre colonial West African ships armed with as many as 20 swivel canons and additional self propelled artillery.

I've actually been researching the topic of gunpowder artillery among precolonial subsaharan African states, and cannons among native states of the Guinea Coast from Sierra Leone to Nigeria were indeed surprisingly widespread. For example I found one Itsekiri merchant chief, Nana Olomu, who possessed at least 106 cannons and 1640 kegs of gunpowder! Jaja of Opobo for example had 50 war canoes fitted with breechloading cannons and he even had machine guns... Oba Kosoko, the King of Lagos used more than 40 cannons during 2 battles, trying to resist the British conquest. But I've honestly never seen any references to 20 swivel cannons on a single African ship. The highest number that I've come across so far, for a single boat, was among the navy of Allada. In a 1778 operation, Allada used two armed boats, each of which had 4 brass swivel guns and 24 large calibre blunder-busses mounted on it. 

Most of the African gun boats would have looked more like this though:

King Eyo's state canoe:

 

King Koko's war canoe:

 

Igbo war canoe:

 

2 hours ago, Abdominin said:

but if you know any book that talks about the ships Kushites used; especially their warships

Honestly, I believe this thread contains the largest number of depictions of Nubian boats you'll find anywhere... Kushite naval history hasn't been written yet... 

[Abdominin]

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

One interesting note here is regarding one of the rarely mentioned, yet one of the most difficult periods in Ptolemaic history, namely the Great Revolt of Thebes, during which a short lived native Upper Egyptian Dynasty ruled Egypt from Aswan (close to the border with Lower Nubia) to Asyut (Middle Egypt), for almost 20 years, from 205 BC to 186 BC. The first of 2 Upper Egyptian pharaohs during this period, Horwennefer reconquered Upper Egypt from the Ptolemies with Kushite military support. 

@Sundiata, That is true, most of African history is in the dark. Another perfect example is Mali's back to back to back victory against the Portuguese Empire on sea(West African Coast). For all I know Portugal and Spain had some of the best navies back then but even this brilliant knowledge of history doesn't exist in "reliable" books. 

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

has been replaced by 2 dedicated Nile boats in Alpha 24.

Are these Nile boats similar to Medium warships or even better? Will they be able to carry siege engines? Kush doesn't field artillery yet thus, her forces rely on ships that can deploy siege towers, elephants, B. rams etc to increase its military projection abroad. I hope that mechanism still exists because the other civilizations undoubtedly have stronger navies but the "siege craft carrier" ability of the Ptolmaic ship really quenched some stress. 

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

I've actually been researching the topic of gunpowder artillery among precolonial subsaharan African states, and cannons among native states of the Guinea Coast from Sierra Leone to Nigeria were indeed surprisingly widespread

Same here. Ever since I saw their war vessels I've been digging in for more. But I'm shocked however that the bigger West and Central African empires didn't adopt artillery on a large scale similar to the smaller tribes or groups. I've not heard of the Ashanti Empire bringing cannons to the field but I do remember one of their kings signed a deal with the Dutch where they supplied slaves to be imported to the Dutch army in Asia in exchange for some number of cannons. 

Anyway, Kushite and sub Saharan ancient navies are yet to be properly studied and evaluated. But I remember from the translation of Piye's victory stela that the King was impatient and he commanded the Navy himself forming and leading a battle formation on sea. Other translations reveal Kushite ships vs Egyptian ships on the Nile "that were filled with all kinds of weapons of war". At the end of the war the Kushite king stated to have taken many many warships in Egypt. Kushite engineers even built causeways to allow their ships to encircle the Egyptian stronghold. These translations reveal a very sophisticated navy at the time, at least, on standard with those of the Mediterranean and Asia. 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Abdominin

[azayrahmad]

Is there any justification why do Kushite's unit names spelled with consonant only? Is it similar to Arabic language (written with consonant only but readable)? Are there any approximation to how did they talk?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 21/02/2021 at 7:25 AM, azayrahmad said:

Is there any justification why do Kushite's unit names spelled with consonant only? Is it similar to Arabic language (written with consonant only but readable)? Are there any approximation to how did they talk?

Yes. Similar to many ancient languages we can really only guess at how the vowels were pronounced.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

@Sundiata @Stan`

 

Updated Pikeman shields:

This positioning on the shoulder seems to match the references you've posted a lot more than the elbow-Macedonian position. What do you think? A nice little detail that differentiates them even more.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

[meshal]

On 29/09/2020 at 8:19 PM, Sundiata said:

I recently came across a very rare photograph of a decorative Meroitic period stone cut window featuring some kind of figurative lattice work, from Qasr Ibrim, which was in itself a pretty interesting architectural feature that I was unaware of. It's is a figure of a man, carrying an elephant on his shoulders, comparable to a mural from the royal city in Meroë, with noticeable Hellenistic influence and possibly represeting a Nubianized Heracles:

 

The mural from Meroë?

 

More cool shots of Qasr Ibrim:

hello , i need the source of the second image  ?

[Yekaterina]

As of now, the Kushites still have 2 identical cavalry javelineers, except one is a mercenary camel. My proposal: increase the max health of camels by 20 percent but also decrease their speed by 20 percent. Or, give them a mercenary camel archer instead. Currently this unit is useless as no one would spend 80 metal on a cavalry javelineer when they have a citizen one.

I think I have mentioned this in another thread, but Nescio, who came up with the camel idea, is gone. 

[seeh]

3 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

My proposal: increase the max health of camels by 20 percent but also decrease their speed by 20 percent.

Couldn't it perhaps also be a way of making it less differentiated, thus less complicated, with fewer exceptions? not that you first have to study at a university before you can play it well;)
mans units with same roles/names/look hopefully has the same benefits/skills

Edited July 10, 2021 by seeh

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

4 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

As of now, the Kushites still have 2 identical cavalry javelineers, except one is a mercenary camel. My proposal: increase the max health of camels by 20 percent but also decrease their speed by 20 percent. Or, give them a mercenary camel archer instead. Currently this unit is useless as no one would spend 80 metal on a cavalry javelineer when they have a citizen one.

I think I have mentioned this in another thread, but Nescio, who came up with the camel idea, is gone. 

26 minutes ago, seeh said:

Couldn't it perhaps also be a way of making it less differentiated, thus less complicated, with fewer exceptions? not that you first have to study at a university before you can play it well;)
mans units with same roles/names/look hopefully has the same benefits/skills

I say first we need to think what other role this extra unit could fit into, then we propose changes.

Kate's proposal ain't bad for a start, even if a little extreme.

 

[Gurken Khan]

What I got from my extensive research (=quick look around the internet), I don't know if a change in stats would be appropriate. For example wikipedia states that dromedaries are prized for being able to outrun horses in the desert; so as long as we don't have terrain differentiation, the speed disadvantage for camels might be a bit one-sided. Also I don't know if size/weight would justify different health values.

I saw that Total War Rome has melee cav for the Blemmye faction. So how about making camels CS and giving the Blemmye camp melee cav?

[Yekaterina]

1 hour ago, Gurken Khan said:

What I got from my extensive research (=quick look around the internet), I don't know if a change in stats would be appropriate. For example wikipedia states that dromedaries are prized for being able to outrun horses in the desert; so as long as we don't have terrain differentiation, the speed disadvantage for camels might be a bit one-sided. Also I don't know if size/weight would justify different health values.

This article suggests that an average horse can outrun an average camel by a bit: https://www.animalfoodplanet.com/how-fast-camels-are-compared-to-horses/

However prime specimens of each species are another story. 

1 hour ago, Gurken Khan said:

I saw that Total War Rome has melee cav for the Blemmye faction. So how about making camels CS and giving the Blemmye camp melee cav?

CS javelin camel? Sounds decent. It would mean removing the CS javelin horse and a little nerf for the faction. 

[seeh]

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

This article suggests that an average horse can outrun an average camel by a bit: https://www.animalfoodplanet.com/how-fast-camels-are-compared-to-horses/

ok every animal is in every skill a bit different.  do we really have to take that into account? according to me. but doesn't make it any easier overall

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

8 hours ago, seeh said:

ok every animal is in every skill a bit different.  do we really have to take that into account? according to me. but doesn't make it any easier overall

I think it would be worth it to make camel units different from horse units, but only maybe in 1 or 2 stats. No need to get super granular with it.

[Sundiata]

On 10/7/2021 at 10:35 AM, meshal said:

hello , i need the source of the second image  ?

"A New Glance at the Portrait of the «Elephant-Bearer» in Meroe", by Alexey K. Vinogradov:

https://www.sag-online.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Vinogradov2013_PortraitOfElephantBearerMeroe_MittSAG24.pdf

[Mentuhotep]

The 24th hour has arrived... 

as a side note this is not simply an ideology. I did not begin to study Egypt based on their ethnicity but it was something I could never shake off when I started my study at 30,000BC and worked my way down into pharonacy. 

As for the term "Blackwashing" I highly despise it, as it attempts to belittle valid points that need to be more discussed in Academia and acts as a brush off to to someone presenting their information which is disrespectful. 

Hopefully in the future we can all begin to be open minded and battle misinformation together, as we are still going off varied interpretations of the early archeologists (even if you may not know it) 

15 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

I will leave my information up for 24 hours before I delete my posts - just incase people want to further critically research what I have postulated instead of blindlessly dismissing it. 

  

[Genava55]

 You made the following bold claim:

On 20/07/2021 at 12:36 AM, Mentuhotep said:

But the overwhelming evidence of the "Blackness" of the OLD and Middle Kingdom is soo overwhelming only willfull ignorance can ignore it. 

I gave you this:

On 20/07/2021 at 9:32 AM, Genava55 said:

Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694

You replied this:

On 20/07/2021 at 12:44 PM, Mentuhotep said:

Soo you want to send me an article saying they found 3 individuals dated to the roman era of ancient egypt (the very end of ancient Egypt) and compared it to modern Egyptians as a means to disprove the Blackness of ancient Egypt? Surely you can do better mate. 

and this:

On 20/07/2021 at 4:56 PM, Mentuhotep said:

Yes I  read it, not my first time as well.

Simply from those replies, I know you are a fanatical and lying person. You haven't read nor tried to understand the study. You cannot handle contradiction nor listen to opposite arguments. Remove your posts and leave, we absolutely don't care. We are talking about facts, not about imaginary tales you are making up in your mind.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Genava55

[Mentuhotep]

@Genava55Attacking me at the very end, knowing I am not going to be making further post is low....

You are very cunning...  

I will admit I sometimes will not respond to something knowing its redundancy and simply leave it to myself - to explain the nuance of genetic testing in the new kingdom requires the prerequisites which I am not obliged to give (it is assumed knowledge) it is very lengthy...

Edited July 22, 2021 by Mentuhotep

[Genava55]

27 minutes ago, Mentuhotep said:

@Genava55Attacking me at the very end, knowing I am not going to be making further post is low....

It is your own decision to flee

28 minutes ago, Mentuhotep said:

I will admit I sometimes will not respond to something knowing its redundancy and simply leave it to myself - to explain the nuance of genetic testing in the new kingdom requires the prerequisites which I am not obliged to give (it is assumed knowledge) it is very lengthy...

I gave you an article about a genetic study on 90 individuals, from which 44 are pre-ptolemaic.

You made the following unintelligent reply:

On 20/07/2021 at 12:44 PM, Mentuhotep said:

Soo you want to send me an article saying they found 3 individuals dated to the roman era of ancient egypt (the very end of ancient Egypt) and compared it to modern Egyptians as a means to disprove the Blackness of ancient Egypt? Surely you can do better mate. 

So your assumed knowledge is simply fact-proof, blindness and bad faith. You even said you read it several times. Please leave the forum, this thread was excellent before your arrival and your BS.

[Mentuhotep]

4 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

So your assumed knowledge is simply fact-proof, blindness and bad faith. You even said you read it several times. Please leave the forum, this thread was excellent before your arrival and your BS.

As I said, if you are still confused it means perquisites are missing... PERHAPS, I might just start my own forum on this. perhaps. Then you may criticise the work I have not even yet presented...

[Sundiata]

You know, funnily enough, I was experimenting with more appropriate, dedicated textures for Kushite reliefs, including their colors, over a year ago, but never came close to finishing it. I almost forgot... 

Maybe one day I'll complete it. 

 

.

On 1/7/2021 at 3:28 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

By the way, the artist, Joan Francesc Oliveras Pallerols, changed the title of that work from "Kushite Warrior" to "Tribal Levy of Kush", based on my input  Either way, it's a pretty amazing piece, like all of his art...