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Default AI is Now Too Strong for Newcomers


sphyrth
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IMO Petra has matured enough to be a feisty player... I don't even know if I want to play him above Normal. Either that or I'm new to his new tactics, namely:

  1. Ignoring my defenses, and raiding my base's weakest points.
  2. Better battle micromanagement skills. (For example: He used part of his army to attack one side of my base, another part against my working units, and build his CC just in my frontlines all at the same time... I mean that's some risky/exciting player!)
  3. Great attack/defense coordination with allies... his diplomacy skills is my cherry on top. Makes me feel ashamed when I fail to help them when they're in danger.
  4. Other things that make the gameplay exciting.

But this might be too overwhelming for a new player. I should know. I remember rage-quitting when I first tried this game (Alpha 16) and got consistently *beaten simply because of my strength differences with the AI. I suggest lowering the AI's default difficulty for new installs.

Edited by sphyrth
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I am relatively new to the game, After starting on "Easy" and promptly getting stomped, I went to "very easy" and got stomped again. After about 40 games in the sandbox, I was able to get back into "very easy" where I can now win consistently. The AI is extremely fast, I am always amazed at what it accomplishes in so short a time. It must be nice not to have to think but just calculate. I do not think it needs much adjusting though, just maybe a note in the 'how to play' section that recommends the sandbox for awhile. Now that I know somewhat how it thinks, I can act accordingly, but the early parts of the match are still pretty dicey.

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I'm new to this game and am becoming a bit frustrated - not just because of the fact that the AI keeps kicking me around the block, but at the lack of what I consider to be basic documentation.  For instance, what does the "alarm" function do, other than causing all the women to run for cover?  Does it automatically mobilize garrison troops?  send mobilized troops to the location of the enemy incursion?  speed up the production of any military units in the production queues?  I can't find any mention of alarms in the docs.  Is there any way to put doors or gates in stone walls or palisades?  As things stand it seems that it's impossible for units to collect resources on the "outside" of a wall and bring them back for use without leaving gaps in one's defences.  I think the best thing to help we newbies would be to improve the docs.  I volunteer to help with such an effort - just let me know how to go about it.

All the above said, I think that 0AD stands a good chance of becoming a great game.  The "bones" are definitely there.  I'll help out however I can.

Just my $.02,

Ron

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My suggestion: combine both: tutorials and lowering default AI. The default AI should be an AI that would be very easy to beat (the one wherein a new player would just click target attack group/ AI base and win). Of course option to change the AI to the stronger AI for normal players would be there.

This way, new players would not be too much frustrated. They can always "up the ante" when they feel they are good enough to defeat the "normal" AI.

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I'm new to this game and am becoming a bit frustrated - not just because of the fact that the AI keeps kicking me around the block, but at the lack of what I consider to be basic documentation. 

  • Are videos in YouTube to improve your gameplay, for default the ai is standard you can change to easy or easiest. 
  • The game change a lot each alpha.

For instance, what does the "alarm" function do, other than causing all the women to run for cover?  Does it automatically mobilize garrison troops?  send mobilized troops to the location of the enemy incursion? 

  • Its planned a button to call all troops in whole map.

speed up the production of any military units in the production queues?  I can't find any mention of alarms in the docs. 

 

Is there any way to put doors or gates in stone walls or palisades?

  • select a segment and upgrade it.

 As things stand it seems that it's impossible for units to collect resources on the "outside" of a wall and bring them back for use without leaving gaps in one's defences.  I think the best thing to help we newbies would be to improve the docs.  I volunteer to help with such an effort - just let me know how to go about it.

  • check developer area if you want be volunteer.

All the above said, I think that 0AD stands a good chance of becoming a great game.  The "bones" are definitely there.  I'll help out however I can.

Just my $.02,

Ron

sphyrth and shieldwolf23 like this  Like this

 

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A thing that annoyed me about the alarm feature was that units gets randomly garrisoned in buildings. And women in towers (and also in other military buildings?) cannot fire arrows (IIRC). Would be possible to prioritize garrisoning in a way to maximize defence, for example women in houses (both cannot fire arrows IIRC) while soldiers in military buildings? (Not sure if this still applies in latest release)

About the AI: yup it is very strong! A trick that works with AI is to use towers, put them as soon as possible near the AI base and it would easily kill most of it workers walking around, in the meantime you can develop your economy and later attack in force without any hurry. This is probably not a fair way to play, it just spots a weak point of the AI (hint to improve it :) ), but you can easily win this way.

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On 01/12/2016 at 0:53 AM, Hog said:

I am relatively new to the game, After starting on "Easy" and promptly getting stomped, I went to "very easy" and got stomped again. After about 40 games in the sandbox, I was able to get back into "very easy" where I can now win consistently. The AI is extremely fast, I am always amazed at what it accomplishes in so short a time. It must be nice not to have to think but just calculate. I do not think it needs much adjusting though, just maybe a note in the 'how to play' section that recommends the sandbox for awhile. Now that I know somewhat how it thinks, I can act accordingly, but the early parts of the match are still pretty dicey.

I never had time to play on VeryEasy, so it would be interesting to know what you (retrospectively) found the major problems, so that we can see if some things need to be changed. You mentionned the fact that the AI is fast, do you mean to gather resources? it already has a gather speed penalty of 0.5, but it can still be decreased. Was it the size of the army it sent against you? It may be a bit easier by sending smaller armies (although they will be more frequent if we do not also change the gather rate). Or any other point to signal?

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I finally got it installed, the AI doesn't seem that tough to me. Against medium difficulty, I had plenty of time to set up a line of defense towers before they attacked. I was out of practice, my efficiency not that good, I was expecting it to be worse. If a new player didn't think to build towers they might have a rough time, but it's not hard to figure out.

Decent tutorials would be a nice improvement, though.

Edited by greenknight32
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I am not recommending a change, I was just surprised at how tough the medium levels were, but remember, i am new to the game and was learning as I go. In most other games I have played, starting on a medium or average setting was doable from the start. Even without knowing much about it. (Tombraider, Elder Scrolls, etc).

The AI player is very fast at resource gathering and building, My daughter who just started to play, is having a rough time in sandbox mode. I think I managed to lose a few games there as well , mostly in the learning area. I still would feel pretty pressured in a medium setting, if those cavalry troops arrive before you are ready you are pretty much done. 

I am not playing it to play "against the game", as learning the particular defenses against the AI is not why I play. I am more interested in the strategy part. There are always 'tricks' to win when your objective is to beat the AI.  In particular, I am using SunTzu strategies against what I hope to be fairly equal opponents (why isn't a Chinese faction here anyway? He was a famous general in this time period).

I am suggesting a little more info up front explaining that newbies like me may want to start in sandbox mode before they attempt to jump right in.   

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9 hours ago, Hog said:

I am suggesting a little more info up front explaining that newbies like me may want to start in sandbox mode before they attempt to jump right in.   

Not exactly sure where to put such info, on the welcome screen maybe?

I'm not exactly sure what it should say though, some people might learn better if they lose a bunch of matches, while some want to try to learn how to gather/build/prepare under calmer circumstances. We do intend to have a learn-to-play campaign, so eventually that should be what we highlight for new players, but for now I'm not as sure.

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I'd say that in sandbox mode, a player should have a fair chance even if they totally suck. I gave up playing FreeCiv pretty fast because guess what - I suck and the AI pwns me pretty fast. That's no fun.

For those new players who don't suck, they can always pick the next hardest AI level.

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  • 4 weeks later...
3 hours ago, The Nivekian Konsolate said:

Maybe a sequential set of scenarios that teach new players? Maybe something with a story line like many other RTS games. I know it was the first thing I looked for...

Singleplayer campain support for modifications actually got some attention lately. That doesn't mean we will definitely add a single player campaign to the main game but we might.

We definitely have a tutorial on our minds though it's not really clear for now what kind of tutorial it will be: Playable single player campaign like, some triggered standalone maps (there are some old ones present but they are not maintained and will not work out of the box so they are not shown by default) or just some tutorial videos.

Have a nice stay ;)

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Outside of building and collecting resources, I can't think of a good way of creating scenarios that would teach new players about the game. Features getting put in, being revamped, removed, and drastic gameplay balances shifting all over the place after each Alpha makes scenarios obsolete almost immediately. Not to mention the devs HAVE TO re-train the AI accordingly as well.

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  • 5 weeks later...

For example: When a Spartan in a Phalanx takes damage, it gets distributed among the guys in the formation instead of taking it individually. But suggesting anyhing about formations is getting waaay ahead of myself.

But I'm waiting for the year that Petra's difficulty level will be based on his skill rather than his resource-gathering speed.

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Indeed, the day when I don't have to be so perfect with my timings for setting up resource gathering in the early game vs. Petra will be a great day. I played my first online match recently, since I haven't really had a PC capable of properly running 0 A.D. until recently. It was refreshing playing a Roman FFA on Tuscan Acropolis where I could sit back and relax a bit, and not have to worry so much about getting rushed immediately. I look forward to have a similar experience vs. Petra in the future.

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