Suggestions for 0 A.D.

[LienRag]

On 12/11/2023 at 11:12 AM, man_s_our said:

if implemented without the planned additions, then it would increase only few micros because supplies quantity is still big.

So, like in Age of Empire ? Where it actually served no gameplay purpose ?

One way that could be interesting strategically is if farms could not be regrown on the same location after they wither (the soil being exhausted).

But that's not easy to balance on so many different maps...

 

[man_s_our]

13 hours ago, LienRag said:

How so ?

If units don't see their back, it means that the player has to make them constantly turn around so they don't miss anything.

A real recipe for micromanagement disaster  in my book...

in case they were idle they'd simply be automatically looking left and right from moment to other. just like normal people do. especially when guarding.

[man_s_our]

13 hours ago, LienRag said:

So, like in Age of Empire ? Where it actually served no gameplay purpose ?

One way that could be interesting strategically is if farms could not be regrown on the same location after they wither (the soil being exhausted).

But that's not easy to balance on so many different maps...

 

whether they regrow or you rebuild them they'll consume water from groundwater or using farmers to water them. I don't know whether I'd add the fertilizers as limited resource or just make it as auras tho.

Edited November 16, 2023 by man_s_our

[man_s_our]

On 27/10/2023 at 8:29 PM, zozio32 said:

I might download that Mod! I was not aware of it.   Are you the person to ask for advice about how to do so?  

the open beta phase has started. tell me if you want to join as early tester.

Edited December 13, 2023 by man_s_our

[zozio32]

4 hours ago, man_s_our said:

the open beta phase has started. tell me if you want to join as early tester.

potentially yes.  I have uninstalled a26, and I have dev a27 running now, so I am also using the version of DE that works with a27.  The "realism mod" can work with dev a27?

Edit: you answered me in the other thread. I will try to give it a go

Edited December 13, 2023 by zozio32

[man_s_our]

2 hours ago, zozio32 said:

potentially yes.  I have uninstalled a26, and I have dev a27 running now, so I am also using the version of DE that works with a27.  The "realism mod" can work with dev a27?

Edit: you answered me in the other thread. I will try to give it a go

the mod is targeting A27. so that it may be playable when A27 is officially released.

[zozio32]

hello, I did try to lunch a match against the A.I. and the mod activated, but without much success.    Where should I put the logs so you can check what went wrong?   I am attaching them here in the mean time

interestinglog.html mainlog.html system_info.txt userreport_hwdetect.txt

 

so, some quick checks. I seems to miss the folders "tree", "rock" and "ore" in "/mods/realismod/simulation/templates/gaia/"

there is a bunch of errors as the "meat" resource is not found, but that come from the initial one on "MeatSupplies.js "   . On this point, won't we need an interface specific to this new component?

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by zozio32
added log and text

[man_s_our]

9 hours ago, zozio32 said:

hello, I did try to lunch a match against the A.I. and the mod activated, but without much success.    Where should I put the logs so you can check what went wrong?   I am attaching them here in the mean time

interestinglog.html 1.31 MB · 0 downloads mainlog.html 1.4 MB · 0 downloads system_info.txt 9.24 kB · 0 downloads userreport_hwdetect.txt 13.93 kB · 0 downloads

 

so, some quick checks. I seems to miss the folders "tree", "rock" and "ore" in "/mods/realismod/simulation/templates/gaia/"

there is a bunch of errors as the "meat" resource is not found, but that come from the initial one on "MeatSupplies.js "   . On this point, won't we need an interface specific to this new component?

 

this thread is the one meant for feedbacks and updates

[Sp00ky]

On 03/11/2023 at 12:05 PM, LienRag said:

 

2 - Defense is unbalanced : Town Centers are extremely good defenses especially in early game, which is a good thing as "zerg rushes" are imho unfun;

 

I disagree with this to some extent. People often exaggerate about rushes in these games. I feel like rushes should have a chance to succeed. In most other games a rush is a risky business. It is usually successful towards low elo player however if the player knows how to defend then the rush leaves the attacker with a huge economic disadvantage. In fact as you climb up the elo rushes become less frequent and people tend to raid instead with small amount of units.

The problem is that 0ad tcs are definitely OP and ruin a big aspect of the game, both rushes are not viable because of the sheer disadvantage of the attacker, nor raids with smaller forces if the player keeps the units close to their TC

One is that they shoot without any garrisoned unit, they have massive range and they deal a ton of damage. In AoE2 for example if you want to kill the enemy explorer you have to carefully micro your vills inside the tc losing some resource gathering time, and even then it is not a guaranteed kill. In 0AD if your explorer stumbles upon an enemy TC is dead 99% of the times with no action required by the defending player. This also hinders scouting which is very important to plan a counter to your enemy strategy (altough 0AD counters or, more accurately, lack of them deserve a whole other discussion)

I think a good starting change would be to change to make the TC do not shoot any arrow if no units are garrisoned inside, and generally nerf their range. 

Another thing that makes raiding unprofitable in 0AD is the cheap costs of units and the speed in which units are produced. In 0AD a village kill is most of the time not a big deal, another one will be spawning soon, and if the player has the tech that lets the houses spawn new villagers this is even less meaningful. This should also be tweaked if TCs are to be nerfed, both villagers and military units should take more time to train and cost more resources. That way an unsuccessful rush can be a fatal mistake because of the amount of resources invested in it.

 

[MarcusAureliu#s]

A small but helpfull improvement could be to display hotkeys in the building menues, like it is done in aoe 2 for example. I am aware that building placement hotkeys are currently done by a mod, autociv which hopefully can be integrated in the game, but this could already be implemented for unit production.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

4 hours ago, MarcusAureliu#s said:

A small but helpfull improvement could be to display hotkeys in the building menues, like it is done in aoe 2 for example. I am aware that building placement hotkeys are currently done by a mod, autociv which hopefully can be integrated in the game, but this could already be implemented for unit production.

This would make it so much easier to build or adjust muscle memory for using hotkeys. If you forget the hotkey or simply forget to use it you'll see the little "h" on the icon and be reminded of it.

 

[Friedrich123]

Proposed changes for the fortress, additional techs and champions:

 

For most civs there is only one technology in the fortress to research: will to fight. On top of that, some may build their heroes there too. But with the upcoming changes and the effort to move hero recruitment to special buildings (i.e. ptol in alpha27), there should be another use for the fortress apart from its poor defensive capability. Therefore I propose a number of unique technologies that should be researchable inside the fortress:

These techs would be in a similar fashion like the ones in the imperial ministery (han). You will get to choose one from two mutually exclusive available techs: One has a more offensive character, the other one a defensive; i.e. Siege weapons deal 15% more damage or buildings have 25% more hp

Another set of possible technologies are: one that give a small buff in general or a big buff for a certain building/unit type; i.e. Group training time -5% for all military units or +2 pierce armour for slingers

Making these late game technologies mutually exclusive will add another layer of decision making and planning to the late game. Do I want to specialise in one unit type and risk being countered by the enemy? Do I focus on the defense as a flank in a TG or do I try doing an all out attack?

 

Additionally there should be a change to the requirements for training champions:
Some are trained in barracks others in special buildings. Take as an example the Briton Argos (swordsman) in comparison to the Maurya Visha Kanya. Both cost exactly the same, have the same training time and the same base stats. But the big difference is how you access these units:
As a Briton you just click a tech for 600 food and are able to produce your champion out of as many barracks as you like, making it cheap and easy to mass the unit.
In comparison as a Maurya you have to build a separate building costing 200 stone and 200 iron each. You have no way of effectively massing up your champions in the same way as the Briton without having to expense a small fortune.

It is normal to have 8 to 10 or even 12 barracks in the late game. Therefore to have the same production capacities as a Maurya you would have to pay between 1600 and 2400 stone and iron, being the equivalent of 2 to 3 fortresses and 20 to 30 champions worth of material (ignoring food and wood cost, as they become less important late game).

That is why I propose the implementation of one of these 3 different approaches to even out the disparity:

1.      Champions can only be build in a special building like the Harmya or Syssition

2.      Make all Champions be build in the fortress, with reduced base training time

3.      Allow Civs to upgrade their barracks or stables for a price of 150 stone and iron.
         There they may build champions at the cost of having double the training time for civil soldiers in that barrack

 

[Gurken Khan]

47 minutes ago, Friedrich123 said:

In comparison as a Maurya you have to build a separate building costing 200 stone and 200 iron each. You have no way of effectively massing up your champions in the same way as the Briton without having to expense a small fortune.

It is normal to have 8 to 10 or even 12 barracks in the late game. Therefore to have the same production capacities as a Maurya you would have to pay between 1600 and 2400 stone and iron, being the equivalent of 2 to 3 fortresses and 20 to 30 champions worth of material (ignoring food and wood cost, as they become less important late game).

It's even worse for the Han, their special building costs 300 stone and 300 iron. And since I overwhelmingly go for cav champs that hurts every time.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I'd say make the "champ building" a standard thing. Call it the 'Academy' class building. Persia's is the Tachara, Sparta's is the Syssiton, Athens' is the Gymnasion, etc. Macedon's is the Royal Barracks. 

 

Or move Champs back to the Fortress for most civs 

[Lion.Kanzen]

I would love to have anti-siege soldiers in the fortress.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

14 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'd say make the "champ building" a standard thing. Call it the 'Academy' class building. Persia's is the Tachara, Sparta's is the Syssiton, Athens' is the Gymnasion, etc. Macedon's is the Royal Barracks. 

 

Or move Champs back to the Fortress for most civs 

What I would suggest is this: let each civ train more 'generic' champions (those that are the same or very similar as the template) from the barracks/stable with the unlock champ tech. Then, for 1 or 2 champs for each civ, diversify them additionally and let them go in either the fort or the champ building, depending on their strength. Then the unit stats could also be adjusted if they are going to a building that is more expensive.

I would recommend this once we get enough ideas for cool unique units for each civ. I suppose the centurion, persian immortal, and the fire cav are already sufficiently unique.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

What I would suggest is this: let each civ train more 'generic' champions (those that are the same or very similar as the template) from the barracks/stable with the unlock champ tech. Then, for 1 or 2 champs for each civ, diversify them additionally and let them go in either the fort or the champ building, depending on their strength. Then the unit stats could also be adjusted if they are going to a building that is more expensive

It's interesting, I imagine them as royal guards or whatever.

 

Could be called basic champion.

With a Tier Rank called bronze and And those of the special buildings called silver and gold.

[Outis]

22 hours ago, Friedrich123 said:

apart from its poor defensive capability

This should be the job of a building called fortress. It should secure an area against unprepared assaults.

[Outis]

18 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'd say make the "champ building" a standard thing. Call it the 'Academy' class building

I propose at least one unique champ building and one unique tech and hero training building (Government center class?) for each civ.

[TheCJ]

On 11/05/2024 at 9:51 PM, Outis said:

This should be the job of a building called fortress. It should secure an area against unprepared assaults.

But 20 cavalry javelineers  with just one (1) defensive upgrade (or 15 with all three upgrades) can capture up to 6 barracks right under a fortress without one of them dying...
So the fortress is pretty much useless against unforeseen attacks, no?
I don't mean to say that the fortress itself can't be utilized in a great way. But often times it seems like a waste of resources, since it doesn't provide enough value for the effort you have to put into building it...

(Well, maybe I'm just bad at the game and still need to learn how to use it, idk) 

[Gurken Khan]

10 minutes ago, TheCJ said:

So the fortress is pretty much useless against unforeseen attacks, no?

Yes, I had enemies just walk/ride by. And no, if you fully garrison it. Of course then it's not an unforeseen attack...

[Genava55]

[English below]

Actuellement, le jeu est divisé en trois phases:
- La phase des villages.
- La phase des villes.
- La phase des cités.

Le problème avec ce système, c'est qu'il est centré sur le concept de développement urbain et sur le développement des grandes civilisations méditerranéennes. C'était déjà pas très pertinent pour les civilisations telles que les Gaulois et les Britons, mais ça va le devenir encore moins si on ajoute des peuples nomades comme les Scythes.

Je propose un système un peu plus neutre:
Ascension / Expansion / Apogée

1. Ascension : Cette phase initiale évoque le début du développement de la civilisation, où elle s'élève de ses modestes débuts vers des horizons plus vastes. Cela peut symboliser la période où les fondations sont posées et où les premières avancées sont réalisées.
2. Expansion : Cette phase représente la période où la civilisation s'étend et prospère, colonisant de nouveaux territoires, élargissant son influence et sa puissance. C'est une étape de croissance et d'exploration.
3. Apogée : La phase finale, l'apogée, suggère le sommet de la civilisation, où elle atteint son plein potentiel en termes de culture, de technologie et de pouvoir. C'est le moment où la civilisation rayonne de sa plus grande splendeur.

 

---

 

The game is currently divided into three phases:
- Village phase.
- Town phase.
- City phase.

The problem with this system is that it focuses on the concept of urban development and the development of the great Mediterranean civilizations. It wasn't relevant enough for civilizations such as the Gauls and Britons, but it's going to become even less so if we add nomadic peoples like the Scythians.

I propose a more neutral system:
Ascent / Expansion / Zenith

1. Ascent (or ascension): This initial phase evokes the beginning of the development of civilisation, where it rises from its modest beginnings to broader horizons. It can symbolise the period when the foundations are laid and the first advances are made.
2. Expansion: This phase represents the period when civilisation expands and prospers, colonising new territories and extending its influence and power. This is a stage of growth and exploration.
3. Zenith: The final phase, the apogee, suggests the pinnacle of civilisation, where it reaches its full potential in terms of culture, technology and power. This is the moment when civilisation radiates its greatest splendour.

[Grautvornix]

I do like your concept of abstracting civilizational advances, just how would it manifest itself in the game? Currently the villagy-town-city pahses can be cleraly indicated, described and illustrated by means of the CC development.and the related technology tree

How would that be working for a different type of civ? A sequence of nomadism,- settlement - fortified settlement?  Or Ships - harbours/trade route network - villages?

It looks like thius could have the potential to create completely new aspects and strategies in gameplay?

[Outis]

On 13/05/2024 at 8:43 PM, TheCJ said:

So the fortress is pretty much useless against unforeseen attacks, no?

What i meant to say was: if we think the fortress fails at defending an area, we should make changes to ensure it excels at it, rather than make changes to add other functions to it. It should excel at its main job first before exceling at other things.

Edited May 15 by Outis

[ShadowOfHassen]

9 hours ago, Outis said:

What i meant to say was: if we think the fortress fails at defending an area, we should make changes to ensure it excels at it, rather than make changes to add other functions to it. It should excel at its main job first before exceling at other things.

Maybe the fortress could have a few upgrades to seriously make walls easier to build. I like using fortresses as major defense areas near my walls.