Suggestions for 0 A.D.

[krt0143]

9 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

create a biome tab with all the terrains used on the map

I think your idea is complementary to mine, but wouldn't help with my issue of "what was that texture I used right here?", given I use lots of them, and obviously a bunch of similar-looking ones (so they blend). I'm tired of trying to remember which grass or dirt or cliff this is, was it his one, or that one?

Obviously what would help too is if the editor could display the actual texture, and not just a rectangle with the dominant color shade, but I guess that's a 32-bit memory limitation...

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

15 minutes ago, krt0143 said:

what was that texture I used right here?

shift click the texture

[krt0143]

18 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

shift click the texture

And that selects automatically the current texture?
 

Guys, this program really needs a documentation... At least a list of those impossible-to-guess features.

[hyperion]

30 minutes ago, krt0143 said:

Guys, this program really needs a documentation

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Atlas_Manual

If you notice something is missing, please add it yourself, this is a community driven project.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 hours ago, krt0143 said:

And that selects automatically the current texture?
 

Guys, this program really needs a documentation... At least a list of those impossible-to-guess features.

Did you try it? Did it work? You have to be in paint mode

[krt0143]

8 hours ago, hyperion said:

If you notice something is missing

Where would I start!
First of all that "Manual" is more like a quick introduction than a true user manual. For instance, no mention of the thing wowgetoffyourcellphone told me above, and I guess there must be lots of other stuff, stuff I obviously don't know about unless I learn about it by chance (like that "shift-click" thing). 

Also there is a lot of inexact (outdated?) information in there. For instance, unlike what it shows, the actual textures do not display in the terrain swatches, only their dominant colors (I have a 8 Go GeForce RTX 3070 Ti, so it's most likely not my hardware). It would be really nice if you could see the actual textures.
Last, the "Environment" tab's options are very different in my version of the editor, several settings are missing, and yet the page states "last edited 6 years ago". So? Overly optimistic, or did those features get dropped since? I can only guess.

2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Did you try it? Did it work?

Yes, and yes. Thank you!

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, krt0143 said:

For instance, unlike what it shows, the actual textures do not display in the terrain swatches, only their dominant colors

This is a bug from the alpha you are running, I believe (it's been a while). Fixed for the latest alpha coming in the future.

 

As for the other stuff being "missing" and whatnot, they may be mockups. And if I remember correctly, Atlas has been re-programmed a couple times in its history. Similar to how the civs keep getting revamped or tweaked, so the civ profiles are now somewhat outdated.

Keep in mind, this is a huge project with only 10 people currently active, most of those being gameplay balancing people. 1 graphics programmer currently active. A couple of very very key personnel on hiatus/extended vacation. A few people submitting some good patches on Phab, but all part-timers/hobbyists. And while I enjoy writing, I'm assisting in committing gameplay patches, got my own huge mod (Delenda Est), my own non-0 A.D. related writing projects, a full-time job at a factory, fostering kittens/cats, girlfriend, my laptop recently took a shite and no money to replace it (I'm typing this on my GF's laptop, which is not ideal for development and gaming, but it'll work for now). Now, take my situation and apply it to everyone else too (with their own challenges).  

You seem passionate. Maybe apply some of that passion to helping us!  

[krt0143]

26 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

This is a bug from the alpha you are running

Great news!

 

26 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Keep in mind, this is a huge project with only 10 people currently active

I know, and I don't expect miracles, I'm just saying that there is a lot of work for that manual, work for which I'm obviously the least qualified here, knowing next to nothing...

 

26 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

You seem passionate.

"Passionate" is my middle name.

But I'm also inconstant and easy to distract/lose interest. I definitely want to help (if my help is wanted), but I am no coder. I understand things rather quickly, but to take a car race metaphor, I'm rather a driver than a mechanic. What I can do though, and I'm usually particularly good at that, is unearth all the bugs 0 A.D. might have.
I tend to use any program at 99.9%, so I'm bound to eventually stumble upon anything not working as expected. Now of course if I get dirty looks each time I mention something not working as it should, I'll refrain from talking about it... 

Edited September 30, 2023 by krt0143
stupid censor thought I was using a swearword! LOL

[krt0143]

And to go back on topic:

A means to list hotkeys by hotkey... The search in there only searches by function, there is no way to search (for instance) which functions use "Shift".

If I want to assign some key to some function, I have to sift through the full list to see if it isn't already used somewhere else.

[Grapjas]

26 minutes ago, krt0143 said:

I tend to use any program at 99.9%, so I'm bound to eventually stumble upon anything not working as expected. Now of course if I get dirty looks each time I mention something not working as it should, I'll refrain from talking about it... 

It's mainly the tone someone brings it in is how it will be perceived, there were good bug testers in the past but had poor attitude, imo anyway ^^. But no matter the tone, if it has merrit something needs to be done with it for sure.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

13 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

there were good bug testers in the past but had poor attitude, imo anyway

Its high time we remember this absolute gem:

 

[hyperion]

On 30/09/2023 at 8:31 PM, krt0143 said:

I know, and I don't expect miracles, I'm just saying that there is a lot of work for that manual, work for which I'm obviously the least qualified here, knowing next to nothing...

You seem to qualify as a power user and have a clear idea as to what the manual should be like. This makes you more qualified than most.

You already found discrepancies, fixing those would be a great start. Adding answers to questions you had as you go might help others in future, doesn't matter if you found the solution yourself or if someone pointed it out to you. The goal doesn't have to be a complete guide like a book by Microsoft for Word.

Ofc it's just a suggestion, just that I think you might be a good candidate for this task with your background and interest in atlas. For example for me the canonical documentation is source/tools/atlas

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I think it would be cool to be able to select a menu of your favorite hotkeys to show somewhere on-sreen while playing. I am trying to use more hotkeys now-a-days, but I frequently forget which buttons I've assigned. Maybe this is a nub issue, but I'm certain some other players would also find this helpful.

[krt0143]

1 hour ago, hyperion said:

You seem to qualify as a power user and have a clear idea as to what the manual should be like.

Knowing what it should be like is not the same as knowing what to put in there...

 

1 hour ago, hyperion said:

You already found discrepancies, fixing those would be a great start.

Assuming those discrepancies are really errors on the website's part. I learned for instance that the missing texture swatches was a known bug of a26. Things like that I can't really guess, and the danger is that I might break more things than I fix (see textures). I have a very underdeveloped Dunning-Krüger... 

The only thing I can do, is put new/recent/a26 screenshots in place of the existing ones, and one could debate the utility of that.
What is really missing, is for instance a list of shortcuts and stuff like that, things I don't know right now.

You can make me the same offer in a year.

 

1 hour ago, hyperion said:

For example for me the canonical documentation is source/tools/atlas

You mean the source code? Well, unfortunately I can't understand that. 

[krt0143]

37 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I frequently forget which buttons I've assigned

I you mean in the game, there is a comprehensive list of Hotkeys in the options, even accessible during a game (Menu/options/hotkeys).

Atlas, the editor, is lacking this...

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

1 minute ago, krt0143 said:

I you mean in the game, there is a comprehensive list of Hotkeys in the options, even accessible during a game (Menu/options/hotkeys).

Atlas, the editor, is lacking this...

nah, I meant like in the top right corner or something as you play the game, with a show/no show toggle option. 

[krt0143]

7 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I meant like in the top right corner or something as you play the game

I see.
Yikes, given the amount of hotkeys this would cover the whole screen, and probably span several columns... 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

38 minutes ago, krt0143 said:

I see.
Yikes, given the amount of hotkeys this would cover the whole screen, and probably span several columns... 

yep, thats why you would choose the 5-10 you want to use or the ones you keep forgetting. Does it make sense now? Of course no one uses all the available hotkeys.

Edited October 3, 2023 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[krt0143]

11 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

choose the 5-10 you want to use or the ones you keep forgetting

Wouldn't it be easier to just print them out? That's what I do (my memory is quite bad).

[krt0143]

Suggestion: Make the unit orders more logical for new users.

I have problems with the (otherwise great) feature of "go there, do something, and then come back": The "Oh cool, they come back!" becomes all too often "Aw crap, they go away...". I waste inordinate amounts of time trying to catch stupid units deciding they have to go/return to some point on the other side of a "giant" sized map, instead of staying put and wait for my orders.

And no, the attack movement doesn't necessarily help: For instance what can you do when unloading unit groups from a ship, and they all start scuttling away like scared cockroaches? While you need to take care of some urgent matter on the other side of the map? Wouldn't it be real nice if they stayed put, waiting for you to tell them what to do?

What I'm suggesting is to reverse how it (seems to) work right now:

1. Unit stances ("aggressive", etc.) should only and exclusively determine how a unit will react to enemies in its vicinity (or being attacked).
2. Units should not remember where they were when receiving a standard command (standard right click), nor try to go back there when they consider they have finished their task. Never, ever.
3. Units should remember where they started from and do their "do something and then come back" thing only when specifically ordered so (Key+right click). That "memory" should only last for that specific task, i.e. when they come back they forget about everything, and are ready for new type #2 or #3 orders.
4. Repairing a dropsite shouldn't be an invitation to gather. When building one, okay, that makes some sense. But repairing my dock is just that, a repair, and I shouldn't have to catch the repairers before they vanish into the hinterland to cut wood... It's even more annoying with the "Norse" civ which has a dropsite ship. Each time I repair that one (and it happens often!), my repairers scuttle off to cut wood...

What this changes, is that you won't find yourself chasing after units which, for some unfathomable reason, kept a memory of some past location, and won't lose it unless you memorize a new location, which is just shifting the problem but not solving it. When you have 300 units to micromanage, of which 150 have a mind of their own, your head explodes. People trying to second-guess your intentions is already annoying with normal humans, it gets horrible with hundreds of stupid-but-lightning fast AI units...

I guess you all have got used to it, and probably don't even notice it anymore, but for new users it's a major pain in the neck, compounded by the lack of documentation. Here you are, making two coordinate but separate attacks on very different places on a giant map, all the while the AI is trying to storm your CC somewhere else, and you need to spend waste most of your time catching your rebellious units...

 

Now I expect a long list of "But we're used to this!", "That's how it should be!" and other "You don't understand anything!" posts. To avoid polluting this thread with the coming flamewar, I've created a separate thread about this too. Please be so kind to comment there.

 

 

[LienRag]

On 30/09/2023 at 8:45 AM, hyperion said:

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Atlas_Manual

If you notice something is missing, please add it yourself, this is a community driven project.

Well, for starters the "terain tab" subsection doesn't say a thing about elevations...

(which is what would have interested me as I tried to make some on a map, and wasn't able to understand what makes them buildable upon or not)

I can certainly not fix the manual for a part I don't understand, but I could report an issue is there's a git somewhere (I mean, not a Microsoft-owned one, of course).

 

[hyperion]

8 hours ago, LienRag said:

Well, for starters the "terain tab" subsection doesn't say a thing about elevations...

(which is what would have interested me as I tried to make some on a map, and wasn't able to understand what makes them buildable upon or not)

I can certainly not fix the manual for a part I don't understand, but I could report an issue is there's a git somewhere (I mean, not a Microsoft-owned one, of course).

 

Well, guess you figured out at least 90%, so if you add that and then post in the forum asking for review and pose a question or two, you likely get proper answers for the reminder if you really can't figure it out.

 

I don't intend to target you but there is a rather common pattern here, complain and expect someone else to sit down and do research or do work. So it comes down to if you can't be bothered why should I be. While not absolute, I'm far more willing to help people who actually contribute. As for brilliant ideas, I'm sure all contributors have lots of them, so why would they need others to provide more.

[zozio32]

HI, while I am new to 0 a.d., i do have one or two suggestions that I think could make the game more interesting and require more stratgic management without increasing what I have seen referred to as "micro". I do think they are manageable in a code, but I may not have enough grasp of the process yet to foresee the complications...

Suggestion:

• get an OPEX cost:

As I see it now, we only have CAPEX costs to unit and building.  Once we spend the resource, the unit/building is available as long as it is not destroyed or captured.   However, that does not feel right. Units will at least have a running food costs (mercenaries would have a metal ore costs maybe as well), and repair and maintenance on building have a resource costs in wood/stone/metal.         Hence I think it will be nice that as your civ grows, its running costs increases. The rate of gathering resources would therefore have to increase as well.  Not enough resource, building will start to loose strenght, and not enough food you might as well have unit loosing health.
         -->  impact on gameplay:   reduce the possibility to create large group of non productive units. You just can't keep xx elephants for example, it will give more importance to worker / citizen / soldier unit,  which I think ties quite well with the historical context.
         --> how to code it: add a resource OPEX costs to each unit/building, and a degradation costs proportional to the deficit in each resource. Engine will then have to tally the cost over the whole civ (updated at each unit/bulding creation and destruction)  and manage the degradation. The deg might not have to be applied at each time step to ease the computational burden. Additional indicators

 

• get a moral status

it is touched in a few active threads right now, but it would be great to have a moral score for the whole civ, with bonus/malus over the full range of activity. The morale score will be based on the following elements:

•           stock:   high level of stocks of resource is good, it provide security, feels good for the population -> higher moral. To be related to Opex costs above, a deficit in running costs of civ is bad for moral as well
• spirituality: from age II, the ratio of temple / civique building / priest to citizens should be valorised in morale of civ. The threshold should be discussed
• ratio women / men: to low a ratio of male to women in civ is bad...  we should obviously not aim for 50/50, it is a game, but I see the point of valorising having more women, makes it also more needed to defend themhero: having a Hero is a morale boost
• high ratio of mercenaries => bad for social cohesion, malus to moral
• city quality:  it was mentioned in the thread about athenian houses for example, you could have a morale score if you develop better housing. Paving could also be introduced (age 2 onward) to improve the city
• relative dev: it is a competitive game after all. Moral should be higher if your civ is more developed than competitors.  relative size of territory should be valorised, having a wonder when the other civ don't have it yet, being at a more advanced age, having unique tech or units
• Having a powerfull ally would help for moral

         --> impact on gameplay: we'll have to manage our civ a bit more, keeping in mind more parameters. it valorise expansion, and therefore risk taking, which might be fun. You compete also with the other in dev level, therefore not only looking only at military strenght. Nice message from you population could appear on screen, such "We need more priest!"   or    "wtf, the xxxxx already have a wonder, how come our great civ is so backward!", positive ones also such as "we are so proud of our new fortified dock, let's build quinquereme now"

        --> how to code: probably not too complex, engine will have to keep track of a few kpi. no need to do it at every turn as well, that's something that can be computed on a rather long timescale.

 

that's it, sorry for the very long post. I understand that it would significant change in the philosophy of the game so it might not interest everyone...

Edited October 26, 2023 by zozio32
typo

[LienRag]

1 hour ago, zozio32 said:

get an OPEX cost:

(...)         -->  impact on gameplay:   reduce the possibility to create large group of non productive units. You just can't keep xx elephants for example, it will give more importance to worker / citizen / soldier unit,  which I think ties uite well with the historical context.      

 

Interesting indeed...

I'd be adamantly opposed to maintenance cost for citizen-soldiers, but getting one for professional units is indeed quite historical and could allow for a more varied gameplay.

Especially if we differentiate between soldiers and mercenaries...

The option to disband mercenaries, with disbanded mercenaries being added to a pool that can be recruited instantly by anybody (including Gaia as raiders) would make for some real strategic options.

 

The main concern with any maintenance system is what happens when the resource drops to zero.

[zozio32]

resource go to zero, you loose the mercenaries automatiquely, building start loosing strenght, units weaken, etc.   You can maybe destroy some unit/building to rebalance the economy...

If the citizen soldier is mobilised, i.e. is not working, then its cost should be accounted for as for any other proffesional units. Agree that cost could be 0 when working.