Ideas for unique technologies

[Gurken Khan]

Speaking of unique tecs: the kush Powerful Priesthood actually weakens their own heroes? (I never messed around with that.)

  

3 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Athens' phrasing bonus

It's nice that the classical Athenian rhetors are acknowledged.

How about a decay tec: own buildings harder to convert, enemy buildings easier; don't know if the Athenians need that, but maybe another culturally strong civ.

 

I was thinking if we could pick up that diadochi thing; dunno, maybe transfer up to 10 units/min to an ally? (If pop allows it?)

[Emacz]

On 26/09/2023 at 9:17 AM, alre said:

I believe simply changing the range won't have a big impact on the game, maybe just in pike vs pike scenarios... one should test it.

I'd say let's have melee rebalance first. btw I don't get why we are all stuck waiting for a27, instead of pushing forward the community mod.

YES! Cant we make some improvements to Community mod in the mean time?? And when I say we, i mean not me.  Unfortunately I know nothing about modding

22 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I'd like to test this as would a number of people. I think @wraitii and @Stan` are either on vacation or have some more pressing matters. They have been the ones to release new community mod versions in the past.

@s0600204 do you think you could release a version 5 of the community mod? This would help us test a few a27 patches as well as the proposed melee rebalance.

I'm happy to play test anything

6 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

I was more addressing the eco change proposal.

But thanks for the feedback. Always good to have input. 

--------------

With respect to the actual forum thread topic, I would like to encourage others to try to come up with ideas that aren't just techs. Techs that modify an already existing template are a little gimmicky and lazy. Most techs also put us in a "race to push all the buttons."

I would also say that the most interesting civ differentiators aren't techs. They are the inherent civ bonuses/features like Iber's walls, Iber's skirm discount, Athens' phrasing bonus, Mace's automatic tech research times, etc. These are differentiators that create really unique strategies and build orders, and are not just a "race to push all the tech buttons" 

 

Some good points.  I started a spartan page, i think there should be some changes to them.  Since they are rather plain

[Vantha]

15 hours ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

allow the theater be able to be built in the second age

I know that might be a bit too extreme, but what do you all think of moving the theatre not just to p2, but to p1?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, Emacz said:

Some good points.  I started a spartan page, i think there should be some changes to them.  Since they are rather plain

good news: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4736

[real_tabasco_sauce]

9 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

They are the inherent civ bonuses/features like Iber's walls, Iber's skirm discount, Athens' phrasing bonus, Mace's automatic tech research times, etc.

and cool unique units like the fanatics, trumpeters, fire cav.

[Carltonus]

40 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

good news: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4736

It has reasonable changes for the next alpha, but will the reformed Spartan Pikemen be of good use in the future? A further suggestion could be a forked technology for city phase: one for traditional and other reform; the latter will have the pikemen, walls, and three new heroes of the late era, among others. Another distinction for the Spartans!

[real_tabasco_sauce]

5 minutes ago, Carltonus said:

but will the reformed Spartan Pikemen be of good use in the future?

I think it could be used, perhaps as a tech pair similar to the seleucids. But for the time being, I think we want to see how the current changes play out.

[chrstgtr]

3 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

and cool unique units like the fanatics, trumpeters, fire cav.

Yeah. Those are great but mostly limited to p3. Differentiation should be more than tech trees and one of two unique OP units for each civ. We're running out of our ability to differentiation through unique units too as more and more civs get their own unique units (Romans got their own last alpha, same with Persia, etc.)

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

One of the main features of 0ad that serves to make civs often play very similarly is that many units are totally equal for some civs. Another issue is how simple many unit roles are (think meatshield/sniper meta). Unit specific upgrades is an attempt to differentiate unit roles and create some situational upgrade clicking as opposed to "must get" like the current military upgrades are. Unit specific upgrades could also help create more specific roles for units, depending on the situation.

Considering civ balance and civ playstyles, some civs might not get all the unit specific upgrades for each of their units. This would make them maybe not "unique techs", but certainly "non-universal" techs. 

Consider that in Aoe2 there are many similar units (people who like games to be "cool" don't like this, hence aoe4). Japanese get every tech that is available for cav archers, meanwhile a couple other civs have access to less techs but have specific bonuses regarding cav archers. This creates differentiation in when and how cav archers are best used for that civilization. I'm not saying that we should be Aoe2, but I am saying that this is a very effective way to make "the same" units play very differently.

To give an example from earlier, someone mentioned "longer pikes" (one of the unit specific upgrades). It seems like it won't have much gameplay effect, but the crucial aspect is that is has greater effect in certain situations (ie chokepoints, getting hits on cav). This is really fun compared to the plain old +armor, +damage techs.

Edited September 27, 2023 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Indeed, techs that effect other things like reach (range), acceleration (maybe a ship rowing tech), Counters (maybe steel arrows for a bonus vs. Elephants), or unlock things like extra ranks or make promotions easier to attain ("tradition" techs) are far more interesting. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[panda]

What about Roman road technology? This tech would make Roman army and its allies move more quickly.

[LienRag]

On 26/10/2023 at 10:59 AM, panda said:

What about Roman road technology? This tech would make Roman army and its allies move more quickly.

Would be nice to have road allow for quicker movement...

[Grautvornix]

7 hours ago, LienRag said:

Would be nice to have road allow for quicker movement...

Interesting idea! Would roads then be built by romans (only) or would that be a map feature?

Could anyone use them? (and move faster)

They would then not be destroyed...

[LienRag]

1 minute ago, Grautvornix said:

Interesting idea! Would roads then be built by romans (only) or would that be a map feature?

Could anyone use them? (and move faster)

They would then not be destroyed...

Romans building capabilities would be nice to have, but that's a huge change to the game (and probably to the game engine).

Having maps as a map feature is easier to do.

Everybody was able to use roman roads afaik (if you can overcome roman fortifications along the road).

Making movement faster in own territory and slower in enemy territory is currently not possible with the game engine (from what I've read elsewhere) but should be a very interesting feature...

[Grautvornix]

Just now, LienRag said:

Romans building capabilities would be nice to have, but that's a huge change to the game (and probably to the game engine).

Having roads as a map feature is easier to do.

Yes, but in this case the road is not just a "painted" terrain feature but an object on the map - which might require also some changes to the game engine.

I am afraid this might remain a dream for some time.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I imagine it could be done similar to stretching out Walls.

[zozio32]

On 04/11/2023 at 4:29 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I imagine it could be done similar to stretching out Walls.

indeed, I don't see why it get so difficult with current engine. we can put farm on the terrain that can be walked over by units, so buidings that units can walk on should be doable.   then it is a quiestion of adding bonuses/maluses to speed of unit based on terrain.   The engine already manages steepness of the terrain I think from the motion of siege engine comapred to other units, so all the buildings blocks are here

[alre]

1 hour ago, zozio32 said:

The engine already manages steepness of the terrain

it doesn't.

[zozio32]

37 minutes ago, alre said:

it doesn't.

ok.   I thought that was what was blocking some of my siege unit mooving around in the Alpine Valley maps.   it is the "width2 of the path that create a blockage?

[alre]

25 minutes ago, zozio32 said:

ok.   I thought that was what was blocking some of my siege unit mooving around in the Alpine Valley maps.   it is the "width2 of the path that create a blockage?

most probably. it's the only difference between units and siege pathfinder.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

6 hours ago, zozio32 said:

The engine already manages steepness of the terrain I think from the motion of siege engine comapred to other units, so all the buildings blocks are here

My understanding is that there is only relative elevation, which is used for things like the elevation range bonus. The issue would be how to change the value also by the direction of the unit with respect to the elevation change. You wouldn't want units going uphill to also speed up. So it think this would require a handful of changes to the game that would probably also affect performance.

I believe the a road 'building' could have an aura in the same shape as its footprint, but I am more in favor of a general tech to represent this concept: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D5183

[zozio32]

35 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

My understanding is that there is only relative elevation, which is used for things like the elevation range bonus. The issue would be how to change the value also by the direction of the unit with respect to the elevation change. You wouldn't want units going uphill to also speed up. So it think this would require a handful of changes to the game that would probably also affect performance.

I believe the a road 'building' could have an aura in the same shape as its footprint, but I am more in favor of a general tech to represent this concept: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D5183

yes, indeed. My ref to steempness was that I thought the path of units was impacted by the steepnes (not elevation), whereas @alre explained that what I was witnessing is probably just to the the width of the path available. But as you mentioned, an aura for "road" that works by providing a speed bonus to unit (all of them, enemies included) would be fun.   And too manage perf, there might be a limit of road tiles to be set

[Grautvornix]

We do have such an accelerator object already in the vanilla game - it is part of the Maurian trade accelerator (Ashoka columns) that can be place to speed up traders along their routes by 20%.

Possibly we can use that as a template for roman roads, e.g. as a milestone/kilometer stone (possibly complemented with some artwork indicating the road between stones?) Issue would be potentially required terrain flattening and it will not be possible to introduce bridges so easily. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Grautvornix

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

We are currently working on a "Roman Roads" special tech for the Romans:

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D5183

 

It's currently merely only a movement speed tech. Building actual roads, while probably possible, would take quite a bit of effort and coordination between art and programming side. I can envision creating "Roman Road" objects for the editor and place them on maps. 

[alre]

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

We are currently working on a "Roman Roads" special tech for the Romans:

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D5183

 

It's currently merely only a movement speed tech. Building actual roads, while probably possible, would take quite a bit of effort and coordination between art and programming side. I can envision creating "Roman Road" objects for the editor and place them on maps. 

- what if it's limited to infantry (less op)

- what if it's a substantial temporary bonus for units that have just been trained (buff to reinforcements)