Emacz

So currently it looks a little like this: Hoplites start with +2 Crush resistance and +1.5 Hack/Pierce but 5% slower walk speed. P1 Techs Hack resistance: "Soldiers +0.5 hack and +0.5 crush resistance and 1% faster walk speed.", Pierce resistance: "Soldiers +0.5 pierce and +0.5 crush resistance and 1% faster walk speed.", P2 Techs Hoplite tradition: Hoplites -1 of reach resitance but −20% training time, −30% promotion experience, and 5% faster walk/run speed. Citizen hoplites 10% less food/wood cost. While Champion +25 Health. Hack resistance: " Champions and Heroes +1 Hack and +0.5 Crush resistance, all soldiers 2% faster walk speed." Pierce resistance: " Champions and Heroes +1 Pierce and +0.5 Crush resistance, all soldiers 2% faster walk speed. " P3 Techs Hack resistance: Citizen Soldiers -0.5 hack resistance, all soldiers 2% faster walk speed. Pierce resistance: Citizen Soldiers -0.5 pierce resistance, all soldiers 2% faster walk speed. So basically, they non hoplites lose out on 4H/P resitsance and 2 crush resistance for 10% movement speed... this could be rough. Hoplites only miss out on 3/3/2 I think if my math is right

Very true.... I guess the problem with changing the actors/artwork is it's a lot of cut/copy/paste. And how many people really zoom in enough to really study their equipment. I feel it is best represented in the "tool tips" and "history" so people gain some understanding of what is going on. Maybe once I've finally cleaned that all up, Ill go back and look at the actors. According to AI which I know a lot of people don't like, but again when I'm changing so much, I usually start there.... archaic period hoplites had between 25-32 kg of equipment while successor state pikeman only had 15-20kg. It was the pike and formation that made them so slow. In case you aren't aware, and this is my understanding at least, anything we dont change in the mod defaults to what the base game has. So if I don't download the actor templates and change them and add them to the mod, our mod stays a smaller size and just defaults to what the base game uses. I could be wrong on this.

For one, you seem to be pushing this the most and you dont even play the mod Secondly, as we have discussed via pm the further away from the base game, the less likely people will try it. Granted very few people try it so far! But most people aren't interested in the historically accuracy. Balance is key and Im not sure how this would work balancewise and all the retweaking it would take. That being said I'm willing to "compromise" and play around with it a little via "Pre Alexander" Greek Factions (Sparta, Athens, and Thebans) Hoplite tradition p2 already gives a speed bonus, and it does make some since to reduce armor a little for that. I will also create "Greek" techs for those 3 civs to replace the ones other civs use. first Hack/Pierce resistance will only give 0.5 of the armor but 3% faster movent second one will not add armor, but instead add 3% more mobility and the last one will remove -0.5 but add 4% so while other civs can gain 3-4 of each resitance greek civs can gain 10% mobility but with no armor gain. Question is should p1 hopelites start with more or less armor than successor state pikeman, and same question for mobility. I dont want to throw things out of wack too much.

@Outis @Thalatta I made this PDF of all the diffirent cav units/actors in the game... its quite interesting. Take han for example for the cs and champ spearcav the portriats seems to show a shield but none of the actors do.... in some cases actors start without a shield and then add one as they rank up. I am not a huge fan of this, unless it is REALLY historically accurate. If in rare cases some civ had a handful of Jav cav that use shields, but most didnt i would rather just give them all Jav cav that don't have shields. CWA - Cavalry units by civ.pdf

We were just talking in general and based on what the game already has set up. Remember no need to change something in the game just to change it. Im aware greek cavalry didnt use shileds, even early on. However, Han swords cav? Seems like they always did. So on one hand you have Athens sword cav and the other you have Han, seems like they were quite different. With spears, its kinda hard to tell. It sounds like most cavalry spear units did not use shields. However, the game depicts a few that do. So until I find other evidence im not going to change them. And in a case like Han i've read that they had 1 hand spear cav no shields, 2 hand spear cav no shield, more of a lancer spear cav no shield but on some rare occasions a shorter spear cav unit that carried a shield. About 1/2 the civs don't really fall into the "Greek" Category correct? Brit, Gaul, German are more celtic? Maybe even iber? Maury, Han, Kush.... Rome seemed to be influenced by greek weapons and ideas early on but they evolved and took on weapons, armorm, styles of a lot of different cultures they fought with and their allies. As far as the way the units evolve, I'm not quite ready to change that for 2 reasons. 1 it would be a lot of work, 2 everyone is so used to it. Forge techs/armor in the game don't always represent actual armor, its not a chance to block or chance to deflect the dmg, its just an absorption of the actual dmg... so armor + hp = survivability to some degree. It's defintely something I had a hard time grasping, why do ranged infantry have a lot less health than melee infantry. You would think 2 soldiers have the same "health" and then their armor differs... That would be a whole differnt route to go and could potentially confused people even more.

Yes, so "lancers" have +1 range over a regular spear, or 2, id have to check. But than Cataphracts have an additonal 1 or 2 meters on top of that... but it sounds like the xyston is a long 1 handed thrusting spear. Not a lance.. so I may need to change it even more... what would the advantage of a 1 handed thrusting spear be vs a 2 handed lance... the companion cavalry still didnt use shields... they were also still considered schock cavlary, but not quite as damaging as cataphract but also a lot more mobility.... lots to think about!

Ok that works I am fine with that... and if it's easier for you and we are working together time to time then I can switch it. Most of the help I get is just telling me how to rebalance things and then I decide if I want to do mixins, more templates etc. So for cav later today Ill go back to a CS spear cav and a Champ spear cav template. Then we need a shield mixin, could potentially be the same for both, whether its champ or cs. The only thing I look at sometimes is the numbers, I'm a little OCD I would rather the repeat time be 1000, 1250, 1500, 1750, 2000 than 1215 We then would need a 2 hand spear mixin? a lancer mixin and a cataphract mixin? How would you break down all the different civs we have? You can send a pm if its easier, and I/we invite you as a collaborator on the git. So we try and do this a little between mixins Hoplites vs regular spearman although they are both CS, just sets apart the equipment they would use, not really their training/professionalism. Sometimes we use a civ/team bonus to incorporate more of a professional force. We have lots of limits in our version. Sparitates are not one fo them though In fact spartiates and Periokois are what enable you to train more helots You cant really have 1000 helots and 2 spariates and 4 periokois We have done this a little agian through some of the ways mentioend above. You gotta a lot of good stuff here! I look forward to working with you more, I personally do better working with at least one other person rather than by myself, keeps me accountable. But I also could NEVER work for some big corporation/group where I'm just told what to do and have no real voice

It's just chat gpt summary so not sure how accurate it is: Companion cav: armed with the xyston (long thrusting spear). Sele cataphract: Wielded a kontos, a two‑handed long lance. So i guess in someways we are in accurate calling companion cavalry lancers... although they are still considered "Elite heavy cavalry" And here its even considered a 1 handed weapon, even though they still didnt use a shield... this is where it gets so "confusing" and tricky. How to differentiate each! Feature Companion Cavalry Seleucid Cataphracts Armor Medium-heavy Very heavy (rider + horse) Weapon Xyston (1‑handed) Kontos (2‑handed) Mobility High Low–medium Shock power Strong Extremely strong Tactical role Breakthrough + maneuver Frontal hammer Best terrain Open but flexible Wide, flat plains

Why make 2 almost identical mods when we can make one : ) this is part of the reason I pm'd you in the first place when I saw some of your interest in the historical accuracy. Unless we have very different end goals it might be "better" to make one super duper awesome mod I have a lot of free time... but am a little nub with coding and dont quite have the historical background. Plus I was hoping for it to be more of a community effort. I have gone back and fourth on this one, the benefit of using a mixin or another template. We actually still use Cataphract mixin, on top of the lancer template. For example, Companion Cavalry would be more of a lancer from what I have gather where as sele and even persia had lancers that were "cataphracts" I personally think the citizen cav system needs a lot of work. Especially if you see someone play sparta and they have 50 jav cav and 20 infantry skirmishers but only 2 hoplites.... doesn't really depict Sparta in an accurate way. We currently have CS cavalry spearman and cs cavalry spearman with shield. Champ Cavalry Lancer, Champion cavalry spearman with shield. Then we have Cataphract mixin. Although we only add it to 2 civs champion lancers... definitely dont think it would fit with CS.

No this was just champ cavalry. I personally have a hard time believing in a "heavy lancer" citizen cavalry unit. I know cavalry was more of the nobels, elites, but a lancer sounds more like an actual trained/paid type of duty. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! for CS we have base as a spear with no shield. +0.5m from a hand held spear, but still -1m from "Champ Lancer" Dmg is 10% more than infantry spearman 4.4h 7.7p but 1/4 second slower repeat time compared to infantry. the CS shield version is -1 range (4m) 1/4 second slower prepare time, not repeat time. +0.5H +1P resistance for the shield we used to only have "spearcav, which included shield" and "hunt spearcav" which was no shield, worse at fighting but faster, more of a scout type unit.

Ok, thats what I'm working on (spear vs lance) currently its really just champ cav. Even though there are two types of cs spear cav, i guess Ill have to change that too. I made spear cav the base one (w/ shield). Then I added lancer as the second version Lance adds 1H, 1.5P dmg and 2 range, but repeat time is 1/4 second slower. Also gave them +1 Hack resistance but 2% slower walk speed than spear version. So spear version of cav is 1/2 meter less than cs spearman, but the lance version is +1.5m. Again wil lhave charts and what not and totally open to feedback on how to adjust, change, balance, make more accurate

I thought we just used the same as the base game, guess Ill have to take a closer look.

Thanks! For melee I think especially. I think we have done mounted vs foot/infantry for ranged. But I do want to double check. Skirmisher vs Javelineer is another one I kinda go between. Eventually i want to make sure everything is uniformed.

What is more appropriate Cavalry Swordsman or Mounted Swordsman? What about spear? and Lance? for ranged Mounted Archer or Cavalry Archer. Mounted Javelineer or Cavalry Javelineer or Mounted Skirmisher?

Are you talking about the portraits/actors? Cause I am not able to change the props But even if they look like double sided axes, we can have them act as single side axes

Is anyone able to help us create some portraits? Need to add "fire" to some units! @wowgetoffyourcellphone you know anyone?

Thanks! Although I can't take credit for it. It was @Asher idea and set up! Yeah I get it, i think ill start with a bonus against siege... and possible try and create "wood" as class and add to siege and some structures that are all wood.

Thank you! Yes we have put A LOT of thought and time into it and have gone back and fourth on all sorts of stats. I'm sure we will continue to do so as we learn more, gather better sources etc. We have a website (it's still a work in progress) but will have a lot of useful stuff on it to make understanding the mod a lot easier. Clasic Warefare AEA right now you will see under charts, the important stats laid out for different CS infantry and gather rates. Plan to add more for Champions Infantry + Cavalry and Heroes. I am fine with this, although from the limited reading I thought the axes weren't as strong as say medieval/Viking age axes and probably wouldn't penetrate armor. But then again the armor in a lot of cases wasn't as strong as several hundred to 1000 years later probably. We are definitely trying to differentiate wood buildings vs those that are more stone and or metal. Woold buildings burn a lot faster (We have several fire units) and I agree a axe should do some dmg to them and or siege! I'll try and figure out how to do that. Will probably ask on the discord channel.

This is "easy" to rename, would it work differently? be more hack, more pierce, more crush? the length of it etc? from your msgs it sounds like you have looked at some of the files? so you know the attack speed, range, dmg etc and how it compares to other weapons. Let me know how to "best" most accurately depict the axe units in the game! should it have a bonus vs any type of unit/structure etc?

That is what I just said many times, that units do have a counter, but those players force you to play monotonous like him or lose... (I have never seen a Spartans player use stables, for example.) have you ever played @SaidRdz he can sometimes pull off all women, skirmishers, and skirm cavalry He doesnt bother with hoplites

We call them "Olympic" on the template cause that's what the game uses and most people are used too. But yes we changed the generic game to Royal Guard, specific name to Hippeis. Again I think fully upgraded Thebans Sacred Band vs fully upgrade Hippeis would be close, Sacred Band in a pair vs 2 hippies together, the Sacred band may still win. Id have to check But I still say Spartiates overall are stronger cause its really their only unit, you can get them earlier in p1 instead of p2 although they start off weaker etc.

@Stan` @real_tabasco_sauce has this been changed? based on this template i would say no: <FormationAttack> <CanAttackAsFormation>false</CanAttackAsFormation> </FormationAttack>

When discussing with one of the other historians who works on the game, they still felt Olympic hoplites should be stronger than Thebes sacred band... but we definitely beefed up them, part of the reason I say Spartiate's are the strongest in our version is because it is really there only go to unit and the game needs to be some what balanced. I still think a civ like Rome is stronger overall but instead of making their legionaries super op. its easier to mass produce them late game than Spartiates. Again I/we would love more community involvement/feedback. But similar to what @guerringuerrinposted just saying something is in accurate without giving a solution doesn't really help the cause. And if comparing Thebes to Sparta directly, even though Thebes seemed to be the start of the end for Sparta, Sparta did have a longer timeframe of dominacnce didnt they?

I originally refrained from commenting on this post for several reasons. Most of my post I try to keep related to our project, Classical Warfare AEA. Which this will touch a bit on. I have also been around long enough to see lots of post about different "broken" unit, but then no willing's to do anything about it. And it just becomes a complaining/venting forum without any possible solutions to fix the so called problem. That being said I was out on a hike, and I just couldn't stop thinking about the post and how it represents some of the issues or lack thereof in our ever so small community. Personal I don't think hoplite spamming is an issue, with the possible exception of my Athens. The fact they can promote to Champs without the cost of champs from the comfort of their own barracks seems a little unfair to me. On top of that I have do a little reading up on and have found nothing about Hoplite City Guards for Athens, so I'm not quite sure why they are even a champ unit. The city guards were the enslaved Scythian archers (from what I have read) who overtime earn the role and patrol the city. That being said, I think almost any unit can be exploited and broken if you master how to play it in the context of the game. One of my biggest weaknesses is playing against Cavalry. Partly because I like to play Sparta and their Cavalry is somewhat simple and limited. I'm also just not that good at dealing with the hit and go tactics. Does that mean all cavalry are broken? Not really, i could do better designing my cities, usings walls, palisades, not overreacting, chasing etc. There are many ways to beat hoplites IMO, some have already been discussed. But I think the best defense against any unit, style of play is an offense that prevents it. Lets take Classical Warfare AEA for example. Like @diagonalo mention we have tweaked a lot, in particularly Sparta and their "Spartiates." And while there is no limit on how many you can train, as you tech them up and make them stronger they take longer and longer to train, so they become a little harder to mass. But they are still probably the single strongest melee unit in our version. It makes almost 0 sense to take them head on in a fight in open terrain where you have to face all of them at once. You will LOSE! unless I'm the one playing them, I nub a lot... but that's a different story. The point is they are slow units, just like in real life. You can easily go to their base and reck their eco with most infantry ranged, definitely cavalry. You can attack them from afar with lead slingers, archers etc... Jav may be a little scary since their range is lowsest. So I guess my point is, if you are interested in a more complex indepth version of the game, check out Classical Warfare AEA if you struggle against a certain type of unit, post and ask for advice. There are many players out there that can beat me with any civ, any unit any day or time... I think its less about the mechanics of the unit and more about your overall understanding of the game and what units "might be broken" so how to prepare for them before they are spammed.

If someone knew how to code that, I would be fine with it. I guess the other option would to make the bonus so small but stackable, so if there are 16 it would be someone meaningful. like if it was .1 resistance, 10 members in range would give full resistance. Again I am open to whatever makes the most sense and is as historically accurate as possible. There are hero's that give bonus while in formation, although one of the main problems is currently you can't attack in formation, so once units attack they automatically break the formation.