Emacz

Yes and from what I read later in their history Spartans relied more on Perioikoi as they couldn’t maintain the same spartiates numbers. So wanted to balance out a little. And helots aren’t exactly “soldiers” they can’t promote, they don’t receive techs….. they are basically cheap bodies to offer a little “missile” action. again maybe the Perioikoi reduced train time isn’t needed. Need more games to sorta see how it works out.

Ok yeah, that would work… they could get an attack bonus like city states as part of their grouping… and then as they phase up they get additional attack bonuses that don’t happen to other civs. But they won’t have some of the protection, auras that other units have. I can put place holders in for all of this… but will take lots of play time to figure out the right balances. And I can’t really do that by playing against myself any volunteers to play/test mp with me?!??

So again, they aren’t restricted. They are stronger than regular champ spearman, especially once they are fully promoted. But when you go p2, they take an additional 10% train time. When you go p3, they take an additional 15% on top of that. And a few of their techs add additional train time. So unless you play death match with cheats, or a game for hours it’s harder to replenish/mass them. On the othetide of the equation Perioikoi take 10% less train time in p2 and an additional 10% less p3… so you can basically train 3 periokio in the time it takes to train one spartiates.

Yes, BUT in our mod "citizen soldiers" are not as good at eco as civilians.... Sparta doesnt have civlians... their Helots have the same gather rates as civilians but are worse fighters than normal "CS" We have the aura based ones... I need to think of how it could work for units that are NOT know for formation, ie the tribal warriors. Auras need another unit to trigger the aura... So phlanx for example only takes effect if there is another unit with it close by,... even though it really should be you need at least X amount for it to trigger... I dont know how to do that yeah, so basically spartiates take longer and longer to train as you progress, so they are harder to reinforce so you need at least more Peiroikois. We actually limit neomades for now, cause they are 0 pop... they are helots who eventually promote and they are weaker than all CS but they don't take up pop... but I may change that a little since that was back when Helots were 0 pop.

Love all this! Thank you, keep it coming Although I guess if it's too much too soon I'll probably miss parts and need to ask again Not sure about this. What would be great if made correctly: tribal societies have units which are strong when fighting one to one, but no or very little formation bonuses, whereas infantry from city-states, republics etc have better formation bonuses in such a way bigger formations are either equally matched or favor city-states and republics This would be nice, I need to think about if there is a way to do that... We do have a small bonus for Testudo, and Phalanx formations.. even though formations don't really work. So similar to Greek city states, they could get a dmg bonus, but not have any "formation" bonus... but currently the only civs that have the formation bonuses are hoplite civs for phalanx, a couple other specific champ situations, and roman legionnaires/champ swords for Testudo. @Thalatta yes, the cheaper wooden builds can be restricted... and then mobilization could be one of the other tribal bonuses. Also we keep referring to it as hoplite tradition, but yes I did rename it to hoplite reforms based on your Spartan post. Im playing around with colonies for Sparta, so that could be added to all. Also I am removing the territory influence bonus from CC on phases ups for city states... Sparta doesnt have the theater.. and I could even remove tettirory bonus from theater and give it more of a "moral/efficiency" bonus Sparta's farms are "food" drop sites, so you don't necessarily need to have them next to a "farmstead" My only problem with giving sparta another pop penalty is Im OCD and if its 10% already, that is 90, 180, 270 etc.... Also shouldn't it really be Thebes that is the smallest?

Maybe read the discussion:) we are trying to figure out what they will do. Just kinda different types of civs that have things in common. And eventually it will be more clear tribals are better/most suited for X, city states are better/most suited for Y

Spartans have a further limit on their champions which have excellent stats already. It does not have to be a hard limit, one idea is to have it as a percentage of current population. we actually did the opposite. There is no restriction on their champs… yes they are strong…. But champs can’t gather resources to produce more champs you can only train 3 helots per every champ…. Although you can train up to 10 without. i dont know how to do a percentage of population….. we also have it so spartiates take longer and longer to train as you phase up and tech up. So you need to mix in more helots and Perioikoi

In one of our versions we had a bonus where CS for Brit’s/gauls and more HP. Cause where they bigger/fiercer in stature say compared to the Romans? maybe I’m just thinking too much American dramatized Vikings on TV but could do something similar if it could fit for the tribes. All melee + 25 health or something.

Well I removed it for Sparta… but their military techs are a little stronger than the average, so by the time you get p3 full techs, they are still fully capable of fighting without it. For example we could start with city states -10% pop bonus. + 10% infantry attack (none of them really had great cavalry) no will to fight tech. although I still think if give Sparta a little something to be a little stronger at least infantry wise. Unfortunately we have touched the navy and almost never play on water maps. That should definitely be Athens strength over Sparta.

Yeah, actually we renamed it hoplite reforms. and I am now OK with the the of them getting the -10% pop bonus… even though Athens was maybe 2 to 3 times the size of Thebes… all 3 were by far the smallest of the 16 factions. Also I like maybe none of them having Will to fight, but stronger militiaty techs or something?

Well generally barracks cost 200 wood 100 stone for most civs... but the tribal ones now cost 300 wood only, 20% faster build time but 20% less health and capture points.... similar to temples, forges, all of those things are wood only.

So I like this, Sparta already has the -10% pop penalty... so it should apply to Thebes and Athens? Then Sparta may be strongest out of 3... Im tornn on citizens gather/military... on one hand sparta wasnt very eco driven right? on the other we use some melee bonus for some of the tribes as well... So we will definitely have to clean things up. All the city states have hoplite tradition

Yeah, I made most of their buildings cost wood, similar to the tech that already existed for "celts" but I towers, forts, and ccs are exempt

Which civs would fall into this category?

Not sure how many times I have asked, suggested you play Classical again, but yes we have them as teritory roots.....

Ok, I’ll start with either city states or tribes. would it be safe to say in general all tribal buildings are mostly wood? some other ideas on what they may all have in common?

We actually have rome go from republic to empire, they are currently the only Empire Kush is a tough one

Its also something I have wanted to do, but I have had a hard time coming up with good ways of group them with unique bonuses... you are giving some good ideas similarly here! Either one of you can PM me with how to set some of this stuff up Tribals I know Gauls/Brits and they already have something similar... I would think Germans could be put in that category? But the way the base game added germans they are quite different in their structures... so I didn't want to change that yet. Would Iber be in the tribal group? There are 16 civs, about 4 groups of 4 would be nice

Yes, its something I was talking to steven about the other day.. Was probably going to do Han next... but so many other little things trying to clean up. Also what would it bring to the table/how would it elevate them. PM me some ideas and we can definitely start planning at least one of them. Just keep in mind we are trying to focus on 500 BCE to 100 CE... so if the empire phase didn't occur until after that, probably not worth it. But Pretty sure Han started before then.

Thanks! I will work on this. Almost everything is different though so I’m not sure where to start that’s partly why I was putting some of the info here. and calling me at least, a developer is way too kind

I knew you would find some issues with it. I like to generalize a lot thanks for cleaning some of that up. Although I think the way we have them differentiated right now from a game standpoint still makes more sense. But I’ll take a closer look. we don’t exactly differentiate the type of arrows, although that could be written somewhere in the tool tip probably. the ranges and rate of fires should be on the spreadsheet we set up! So if they need to be changed just let me know!

Even though it doesn't seem to be helping much I thought I add a little more detail regarding the Classical Warfare AEA project. Another thing that separates it a little from the base game is more diversity within units. For example, there were at least 3 common types of bows from 500 BCE to 0/100 CE. You had the simple bow. Cheaper, easier to make, but not as strong/accurate as (Composite/Longbows.) Most of the Greeks were not known for their archery, the mainly used the simple bow. Then there is the composite bow, almost twice the range as the simple bow, popular among the Steppe people, used by the Achaemenid Empire (Persians) Sele and Ptoles. Then you had the more powerful, bigger long bows of the Maurya and Kushites. These bows often matched the range or exceeded that of the composite bow. But do it its size had a slower rate of fire and was not ideal for very mobile units. There were also different types of ammunition used with slings, most commonly stone or lead when available. Again trained slingers with lead ammunition could often out shoot archers as far as distance. The Balearic and Rhodians in particular were highly sought after for their slinging skills. Please correct me if I'm wrong But yes we are trying to make an effort to represent some of the important differences from the time period which made certain archers better than others, while some infantry stronger than others etc.

They aren’t champs in CWA, but they are elite mercenaries. They have special stats, were highly regarded in the ancient world for their sling capabilities. Similar with Rhoadian. part of the problem is what exactly are champs?

just please dont disable me again

I appreciate all your help on the mod, but do you play it? <Population> <Bonus>25</Bonus> </Population> that is in the fortress template, they do give a pop bonus, 25