Genava55

Looks like a kind of männerbund and it would explain why there is a stelae among Cantabrians depicting a warrior with a wolf-hood. Männerbunde are generally associated to wolf or dog in Indo-European societies. I suggest the Lusitanians should have a special unit called Lusitanian young or Lusitanian raider. It could be simply the standard javelineer unit but with a bonus of speed. Which by itself would be a pain in the *** and a good advantage if given at the start.

I would say a javelineer would work fine. Strabo's account is short and could be an example of an emblematic case: Diodorus Siculus mention also that the young Lusitanians were used to plunder other lands to learn the way of war.

Sorry, but the excerpts you are quoting say exactly otherwise. All the fire darts comes from the town, not from the camp of Pompey's sons. Gnæus Pompeius is not actively participating in the defense of the town since he is himself rebuilding his camps and fortifications. Chapter 6: "Caesar began to assault Ategua by surrounding it with siege works and fortified lines." Chapter 7: "It was in this direction, namely that of Ategua, that Pompeius had his camp pitched in the mountains in sight of both towns, without, however, venturing to come to the aid of his comrades. He had the eagles and standards of thirteen legions; but among those which he thought afforded him any solid support two were native legions, having deserted from Trebonius; a third had been raised from the local Roman settlers; a fourth was one which was once commanded by Afranius and which Pompeius had brought with him from Africa while the rest were made up of runaways or auxiliaries." Chapter 8: "To take the present instance: Pompeius had his camp established between the above-mentioned towns of Ategua and Ucubi, in sight of both of them; and some four miles distant from his camp there lies a hillock, a natural elevation which goes by the name of the Camp of Postumius and there Caesar had established a fort for purposes of defence." Chapter 10: "That night Pompeius burned his camp and proceeded to march towards Corduba." Chapter 11: "At the third watch of the night there was very sharp fighting in the area of the town, and many fire-brands were discharged." Chapter 12: "At the second watch the enemy observed his usual custom of hurling from the town a large quantity of fire-brands and missiles, spending a good long time in the process and wounding a large number. When the night had now passed they made a sally against the Sixth legion when our men were busily occupied on a field-work, and began a brisk engagement; but their sharp attack was contained by our troops despite the support which the townsmen derived from the higher ground. Having once embarked upon their sally, our opponents were nonetheless repulsed by the gallantry of our troops, although the latter were labouring under the disadvantage of a lower position; and after sustaining very heavy casualties they withdrew back into the town." Chapter 13: "On the next day Pompeius began to carry a line of fortifications from his camp to the river Salsum" Chapter 14: "Earlier on that day Pompeius established a fort across the river Salsum without meeting any opposition from our troops" Chapter 15: "Later on that day the old routine was observed and fighting broke out along the battlements. After discharging a very large number of missile weapons and firebrands at our troops, who were on the defensive, the enemy embarked upon an abominable and completely ruthless outrage; for in our sight they proceeded to massacre some of their hosts in the town, and to fling them headlong from the battlements — a barbarous act, and one for which history can produce no precedent." Chapter 16: "In the closing hours of this day the Pompeians sent a courier, without the knowledge of our men, with instructions that in the course of that night those in the town should set our towers and rampart on fire and make a sally at the third watch. Accordingly, after they had hurled fire-brands and a quantity of missile weapons and spent a very large part of the night in so doing, they opened the gate which lay directly opposite Pompeius' camp and was in sight of it, and made a sally with their entire forces." Yeah but that the point of my message. The Lusitanians are with Pompeius (Pompey's son) not in the town. Well just to go back to your older messages: I really have the feeling to read a chauvinistic teenager. Bye.

Those are not mercenaries but auxiliaries, that a detail but it matters. Anyway the Lusitanians ARE NOT in Ategua, they are not throwing fire darts. They are with Pompey's sons in his camp. This is even explicitly told when two Lusitanian brothers flee the camp of Pompey and surrender to Caesar, reporting information said by Pompey's sons. The Lusitanians were with Pompey's sons, not in the town of Ategua. You were wrong, you can simply move on. Change your tone. If you mean my proposal, following one made by @Duileoga, to follow a successive variation of the body armor with experience, this is simply a standard in 0AD. Most civilization follow this simple rule. For example, the hoplites for the Greek civs do not have a body armor at the basic. Each unit have three experience levels with a model associated. Basic, Advanced, Elite. It is important that the player can easily catch the change among his troops and among enemy's troops. The most common for the basic is to have no body armor. The Greek hoplite do not have a body armor, it doesn't mean he is not a heavy infantryman. I think you are overreacting here but whatever. If you want organic armor for the basic version, I don't care. I am not against.

This is from Bellum Hispaniensis (Spanish War) chapter 12 to 16, but it describes the siege of Ategua (nearby Cordoba) in Baetica. The Lusitanians aren't involved before the chapter 30, where they faced Caesar at Munda as an auxiliary force brought by Pompey's sons. So excuse me, but your quote corroborates this is a habit from the Iberian natives. The defenders of Ategua used fire darts against Caesar. Anyone can verify it here: https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Caesar/Spanish_War/text*.html

I think it is from Silius Italicus: "§ 1.343 exploit of your general! Is this the glorious news with which we intend to fill Italy? Are these the battles whose rumour we send before us? Fired by his words their courage rose high; the spirit of Hannibal sank deep into their hearts and inspired them; and the thought of wars to come spurred them on. They attack the rampart with bare hands and, when thrust down from the walls, leave there their severed limbs. A high mound was erected and placed parties of combatants above the city. But the besieged were protected and the enemy kept away from the gates by the falarica, which many arms at once were wont to poise. This was a missile of wood, terrible to behold, a beam chosen from the high mountains of the snow-covered Pyrenees, a weapon whose long iron point even walls could scarce withstand. Then the shaft, smeared with oily pitch and rubbed all round with black sulphur, sent forth smoke. When hurled like a thunderbolt from the topmost walls of the citadel, it clove the furrowed air with a flickering flame, even as a fiery meteor, speeding from heaven to earth, dazzles men's eyes with its blood-red tail. This weapon often confounded Hannibal when it carried aloft the smoking limbs of his men by its swift stroke; and, when in its flight it struck the side of a huge tower, it kindled a fire which burnt till all the woodwork of the tower was utterly consumed, and buried men and arms together under the blazing ruins. But at last the Carthaginians retreated from the rampart, sheltered by the close-packed shields of the serried tortoise, and sapped the wall unseen till it collapsed, and made a breach into the town." And from Livy: "8. For the next few days, while the general's hurt was healing, there was rather a blockade than1 an assault; but though during this interval there was rest from combat, yet was there no slackening in the preparation of engines and defences. Accordingly the fighting broke out afresh more fiercely than before, and pent-houses began to be pushed forward and rams brought up at many points, though in some places the ground would hardly admit of them. The Phoenician was lavishly equipped with men —he is credibly supposed to have had a hundred and fifty thousand under arms —but the townsmen, who, in order to guard and defend every quarter, had been divided into numerous companies, found their strength inadequate. And so now the walls were being battered with rams and in many places had been severely shaken. One section, giving way continuously for some distance, had exposed the town: three towers in a row, together with the wall connecting them, had come down with a loud crash. The Phoenicians believed that the town was taken with that breach, through which from either side men rushed to attack, as though the wall had protected both parties alike. It was not at all like the mellays that commonly occur in sieges, where one side gets an opportunity, but regular battle lines had formed, as in an open field, between the ruins of the wall and the buildings of the city, which stood at some distance off. On this side hope, on that despair inspired courage. The Phoenicians believed the city to be theirs, if they put forth a little effort. The Saguntines opposed their bodies to defend their city, denuded of its walls, nor would one of them draw back his foot lest he admit an enemy to the spot which he had vacated. And the harder both sides fought and the more they crowded in together, the greater was the number of those wounded, for no missile fell without taking effect on shield or body. The Saguntines had a javelin, called a phalarica, with a shaft of fir, which was round except at the end whence the iron projected; this part, four-sided as in the pilum, they wrapped with tow and smeared with pitch. Now the iron was three feet long, that it might be able to go through both shield and body. But what chiefly made it terrible, even if it stuck fast in the shield and did not penetrate the body, was this, that when it had been lighted at the middle and so hurled, the flames were fanned to a fiercer heat by its very motion, and it forced the soldier to let go his shield, and left him unprotected against the blows that followed." So I must disagree with you (once again).

Is Miguel Sanches Baêma the full name? I don't find anything over google scholar: The only place where I can find him is on a forum. But did he publish anything (book, article etc.)? https://recons-iberoceltica.forumeiros.com/t111-os-armamentos-dos-lusitanos-nas-campanhas-de-viriato Thank you for the reference. Although I find it difficult to follow his logic. He says basically that the Celtiberians are influencing the North-Eastern Iberians because there is La Tène weapons in North-Eastern Iberia. In his mind, La Tène weapons = Celtiberian influence. The problem I have with his opinion is that it has been discussed several times in the literature that the La Tène weapons were not typical in Celtiberian context. For example, the La Tène shield boss is more frequent in the North-East than it is among the Celtiberians. The same goes for the Celtic iron montefortino, which is purely La Tène but is not found in Celtiberian context but only in Iberian context: So it is not valid to say that long shields are equivalent of Celtiberian influence and that anything representing long shields is depicting Celtiberian influence. In fact it is probably the reverse that happened, the Celtiberians adopted the long shields during the 2nd century BC, after it was adopted among the Iberians. The problem with your opinion is that it follows this logic: Everything among Iberians is valid for Celtiberians. Everything among Celtiberians is valid for Lusitanians. Therefore everything among Iberians is valid for Lusitanians. In my opinion, this is sophistry. References: https://www.academia.edu/728177/_Patterns_of_interaction_Celtic_and_Iberian_weapons_in_Iron_Age_Spain_?fbclid=IwAR2OWR_RHZeg1RSCqG_oC8G1mMQcbra3rEIvBusM4kDdHtT2L2Xm9m0nA58 https://www.academia.edu/727108/_Montefortino-type_and_related_helmets_in_the_Iberian_Peninsula_a_study_in_archaeological_context_ https://www.academia.edu/29051656/Elmi_Montefortino_nel_Mediterraneo_occidentale

It is not I don't want to include it. It is simply a lack of evidences. I heard your opinion but I am not convinced. You claimed a lot of weird things: You claimed the Celts were commonly using scale armor but it is not the case. You claimed there was a Celtiberian ceramic proving it, you didn't provide the evidence when I asked for. You claimed there were accounts from classical authors suggesting its use, but you simply said something weird about Strabo mentioning heavy infantry (which doesn't mean lorica squamata). In the end there is only one plausible evidence in a strictly Iberian context, Llíria. But even a specialist like Quesada-Sanz (which is THE specialist concerning Iberian warfare and armament) is unconvinced about the possibility it represents a metallic armor. So if you want absolutely to depict a scale armor, it should at least be kept for the Iberians.

For the bipene axe, there is a plausible find as a votive axe: For the mask helmet, it is plausible the Cantabrians used such. But I don't think it would have been such bearded mask helmet. I think something like this more plausible (this is an italic chalcidian helmet):

The origin of the Ambakaro first appeared in the first Europa Barbarorum mod for Rome Total War. Alongside other units that are inaccurate. All those units have been removed for Europa Barbarorum 2 because there was actually no evidence for such things. And I am saying that as a part of the team.

Hola Duileoga, personalmente me parece que las texturas de las unidades son bastante buenas. La idea de utilizar las estatuas gallegas como referencias es buena. Los descubrimientos arqueológicos sobre las armas son bastante escasos para los Lusitanos, afortunadamente es posible inspirarse en las estatuas gallegas y los descubrimientos entre los Vetones. De hecho, creo que ya ha hecho bien en incluir un edificio para los Vetones, que permitiría incluir explícitamente unidades Vetones. Los Cantabres también podrían formar parte de la lista para diversificar. Hay varios elementos únicos que se pueden utilizar. Incluir a los Gallegos, los Vetones y los Cantabres tiene sentido para mí. Existen vínculos culturales entre estos pueblos con los lusitanos. Sin embargo, empezar a incluir todo y cualquier cosa que apareció en la Península Ibérica, no tiene sentido. Estoy de acuerdo en que se deben usar armadura orgánica y linotórax. Las fuentes literarias son claras sobre este tema, existía este tipo de protección entre los combatientes. Lo mismo para el armadura de malla, parece ser solo para la élite, pero es algo que se usa. Por otro lado los discos de bronce o la armadura de escamas no lo es. Para los discos de bronce, no parece haber ninguno en el oeste entre los Vetones, además, los discos ya no se utilizan después del siglo IV a. y por lo tanto no hubo ninguno durante las guerras de Lusitania. Para las armaduras de escamas no hay evidencia de su uso aparte de una cerámica encontrada en el este de la península entre los íberos. La interpretación de esta cerámica está lejos del consenso y la literatura tampoco menciona explícitamente este tipo de armaduras. Aparte de los argumentos de mala fe, no vi nada que probara su uso. En cuanto a los cascos con máscaras, la única interpretación plausible es la de una moneda de la región de Cantabria. Creo que es más prudente dejar la exclusividad de su uso a una unidad Cantabre. Como el hacha doble. En cuanto a las evoluciones de las unidades con la experiencia, estoy de acuerdo contigo en que es necesario poner reglas para mantener una coherencia. Esto es importante para los jugadores que necesitan ver rápidamente las diferencias entre unidades. Creo que, de hecho, la versión básica no debería tener un casco, luego cascos orgánicos y luego cascos de metal. También se puede hacer lo mismo con el par, que aparecería en algunas unidades solo en un nivel superior.

I am simply worried for the Lusitanians but if you want to mess the whole development go ahead. I don't see the point in discussing with someone that cannot back up his claims nor answers simple questions.

Not so different: individual fighting techniques and battle tactics of Roman and Iberian armies within the framework of warfare in the Hellenistic Age https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238749568_Not_so_different_individual_fighting_techniques_and_battle_tactics_of_Roman_and_Iberian_armies_within_the_framework_of_warfare_in_the_Hellenistic_Age 15. MILITARY DEVELOPMENTS IN THE ‘LATE IBERIAN’ CULTURE (c. 237-c. 195 BC): MEDITERRANEAN INFLUENCES IN THE FAR WEST VIA THE CARTHAGINIAN MILITARY https://www.uam.es/FyL/documento/1446794678563/Quesada-HWI-Torun-BNO-.pdf Discos-coraza de la Península Ibérica https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270474863_Discos_Coraza_de_la_Peninsula_Iberica La guerra y el armamento celtibérico: estado actual https://www.academia.edu/30577570/La_guerra_y_el_armamento_celtibérico_estado_actual El armamento de influencia La Tène en la Península Ibérica (siglos V-I a.C.) https://www.tdx.cat/bitstream/handle/10803/51613/tggj.pdf;jsessionid=5AC27E1F532ECC3F3BF30780903A2CB9?sequence=14

As far as I know, there are no evidences that the other Celts (Britons and Gauls) used any sort of armor made of scales. If you know evidences for such armors in a Gallic or a Brythonic context, I would be really interested. Do you have a reference? Is there an account from classical authors mentioning armor made of scales on the peninsula? First, because I am an annoying nitpicker and because I am genuinely interested to seek the truth. But also because I don't want to see the Lusitanian faction suffering the same issue than the Iberian faction. If both the Iberians and the Lusitanians use the same references, then there is no point in creating this faction.

A new 3d modelling of Corent, an oppidum with a sanctuary.

I am skeptical of this kind of illustration depicting a bronze cuirass of the 6th century, a Monte-Bernorio dagger of the 4th century and a Montefortino helmet of the 3rd century BC. Furthermore, if the issue is that the Iberians are currently mixing everything from the Iberian peninsula, doing the same for the Lusitanians will simply be doubling the problem.

I missed this one. This is your reply to mine pointing out you have used an illustration depicting a late roman cavalryman against Picts?

I don't see the gladius. By the way you initially said that it was an antenna sword, not a gladius hispaniensis. That's two different weapons. Try to be coherent with your own interpretation. Edit: a xiphos could be the source Some xiphos, especially those from Hellenistic era have different hilt and pommel that could match those from the coins above: In comparison, a Gladius Hispaniensis: Or an antenna sword: I think the xiphos is the one that matches best the shape and the length of the blade. Which is also supported by the similarity between the two coins, one is obviously depicting xiphos swords.

That's depicting a roman cavalryman from the end of the western Roman Empire facing two Picts. You really think the bottom part is a chain mail?

"It is in any case clear..." means basically "em qualquer caso, é claro..." You claimed it is a coin from Hispania, but this is not. You never replied to my argument so I assume you know I am right and you were wrong. The coin is minted in Rome. It is a widespread denarius, mostly found in Italy. You see a barbarian figure, it could be the case but it could be any kind of barbarian. Thracian for example, from which we know they used lorica squamata. Thracians fought for the Macedonians against the Romans, so it would be much logical for a coin minted by Gaius Servilius Vatia. All depictions from the coins minted by Servilius familly suggest icons and images from the Eastern Mediterranean regions. Not from the West. Because it contradicts you, you label them exotic? That's not helping you. You said Diodorus Siculus not Strabo, but whatever. Strabo's account actually confirms that the chain mail is rare. And Quesada-Sanz is entirely correct on pointint out that none have been found yet (predating the Caesarean era). The point of Quesada-Sanz is to say it is more probably a linen or quilted armor. Strabo's Geography, Book 3, chapter 3.6: At any rate, the Lusitanians, it is said, are given to laying ambush, given to spying out, are quick, nimble, and good at deploying troops. They have a small shield two feet in diameter, concave in front, and suspended from the shoulder by means of thongs (for it has neither arm-rings nor handles). Besides these shields they have a dirk or a butcher's-knife. Most of them wear linen cuirasses; a few wear chain-wrought cuirasses and helmets with three crests, but the rest wear helmets made of sinews. The foot-soldiers wear greaves also, and each soldier has several javelins; and some also make use of spears, and the spears have bronze heads. Now some of the peoples that dwell next to the Durius River live, it is said, after the manner of the Laconians — using anointing-rooms twice a day and taking baths in vapours that rise from heated stones, bathing in cold water, and eating only one meal a day; and that in a cleanly and simple way. The Lusitanians are given to offering sacrifices, and they inspect the vitals, without cutting them out. Besides, they also inspect the veins on the side of the victim; and they divine by the tokens of touch, too. They prophesy through means of the vitals of human beings also, prisoners of war, whom they first cover with coarse cloaks, and then, when the victim has been struck beneath the vitals by the diviner, they draw their first auguries from the fall of the victim. And they cut off the right hands of their captives and set them up as an offering to the gods. And this account is specifically about the Lusitanians. You like to rely on other tribes to make up a Lusitanian roster but the ceramics you are relying on are from Valencia in Spain.

By the way, the two opinions I shared about the Llírian warriors depicted on the ceramics were made by scholars. One is an excerpt from the publication made by the museum and the other is made by Quesada-Sanz on his Phd thesis. https://www.uam.es/ss/Satellite/FilosofiayLetras/es/1242658885099/1242658430666/persona/detallePDI/Quesada_Sanz,_Fernando.htm But I am not surprised by your attitude.

This is a Roman coin right? This is not an indigeneous coin right? So why a Roman would mint a Celtiberian letter? Especially, why Romans would mint in Rome a denarius with a Celtiberian letter? And again this is NOT a coin found exclusively in Hispania, this is a widespread denarius minted by someone that was in charge of the official mint. In Rome. The academic litterature is clear on the matter, the letter M on this coin is a reference to an ancestor of the minter. This is what is explained on the reference book on Republican coinage written by Michael H. Crawford. All the things you see, the braids, the mask helmet and the antenna pommel are the products of your imagination. No expert describes the coin in such way. I don't see the mask, I see a face. A face minted in a similar way in other coins from Servilius family. The pommel of the sword is similar on another coin representing a Roman facing a Macedonian.

It is not from Hispania and does not represent two local knights. For you this is a Celtiberian letter ? Interesting. Completely wrong but it is interesting how some people can made up things with great imagination. Maybe you should read more about Gaius Servilius Vatia