Genava55

It doesn't seem correct. The earliest account is in the Épinal-Erfurt glossary. Which is generally dated to the end of the seventh century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Épinal-Erfurt_glossary "From the foregoing, it should be clear that Épinal-Erfurt Glossary was compiled in the last quarter of the seventh century, likely at St. Peter and Paul’s Abbey (later St. Augustine’s Abbey) in Canterbury, where the school of Theodore and Hadrian was established." - Herren & Sauer In Épinal-Erfurt glossary the mention I am referring to is the following: ‘conpetum, tuun uel ðrop’ So in this glossary: Compitum = Tūn = Throp. The three terms are equivalents. The Latin compitum was generally used to designate a cross-road during the Roman period, but Isidore of Seville explained that in his day, it referred to a place where people from the countryside gathered. And tūn/tuun at this time still meant enclosure, farmland or yard: the Laws of Æthelberht (L. Ethb. 17) show that "running into a man's tún" (breaking into his yard) was a punishable offense. At the best, it was used for estate. In this case tūn would have the same meaning that the Gothic thaurp. The meaning of throp in the Épinal-Erfurt is obviously not of village. So in the end, the earliest account for throp in Old English doesn't seem to designate a village but a gathering place.

Well if it was an innovation from the Gothic language, why the meaning as a farm or an estate is observed in other Germanic languages? It is the case in Old High German with the word Dorf, which referred to both a farm and a village, furthermore it appears that early glossaries translated it primarily as 'farm' or 'estate' rather than 'village'. It is also seen in Norse languages as well. It is not like þorp meant only 'village' or 'hamlet', it was applied to a farm and to an estate as well. And in Old Swedish, it seems to have retained only its meaning as a farm and not its meaning as a village, see again: So again, not an innovation peculiar to Gothic. There is a body of evidence suggesting that the word came to be used to refer to a village over time. As you can see, I have no problem using another Germanic language. As I said, there are also elements in the Nordic languages that support my criticism of your viewpoint. It is clear that the old Swedish þorp has retained its original character as a single farm. I have shown you the evidence. But I’d like to quote an expert in the field to show that my point of view isn’t some oddity that only I share. Stefan Brink, a renowned philologist on Norse studies, said the following in the book The Viking World (2011): "The medieval element torp, however, must be seen in a context of the huge colonisation in northern Europe during the high Middle Ages, within a new ‘feudal’ agrarian system with a ‘manor’ and dependent tenant farms within an estate. In Germany these tenant farms often had the name dorf (< þorp), and the word for such a dependent farm was spread with the new colonising strategy to Scandinavia. Early on, the element torp must have developed into a meaning of secondary farm, a farm detached from a hamlet etc., hence not always denoting a tenant farm within an estate." Once again, I feel like I’m the only one taking into account the evolution of Germanic society, which underwent profound changes as a result of the great migrations. The Germanic peoples inherited urbanized territories and institutions that were foreign to their customs; century after century, they had to adapt to their new reality. Stefan Brink emphasizes once again that significant shifts took place that altered the meanings of various words. The Deutsches Ortsnamenbuch and the other works dedicated to the study of place-names demonstrated the same. These semantic shifts were related to important changes in laws and in institutions. The naming of the settlements followed different periods of naming, with clear preference from a period to the other. These different naming dynamics are a reflection of the changes in the meaning of words. The entry from Cleasby & Vigfusson Old Norse dictionary (1874) you are referring to says exactly what I said, in Old Norse the meaning as 'farmland' or 'estate' remained. Once again, it is not an innovation from Gothic. And if þurpą is mentioned only once in the entire Gothic bible, this shows that it wasn't a term that was used very often by ancient Germans. It appears only in an agricultural context, referring to the ownership of a farmland. It would be good to be consistent throughout your argument. You went on at length over several paragraphs to explain that the Germanic peoples lived in scattered dwellings surrounded by fields that separated them, only to now argue that the term þurpą refers to settlements where houses are clustered together and built side by side without their own enclosure. You initially assumed that þurpą referred to the scattered dwellings of the Germanic peoples; are you still able to defend that view by arguing that þurpą refers to a cluster of closely spaced buildings? I am referring to this message you posted:

The issue with building a system revolving on different archer types, is that for balancing, it would be necessary to give it to most civs. No matter what historical justifications one might find. Personally, I feel like the current system, with archers, slingers, and javelineers, isn't being used to its full potential.

I think there is a misconception here. Country (or countryside) doesn't equate to farmlands. The semantic flexibility of the Greek ἀγρός (agros) hinges on the shift from a functional unit to a geographical zone. The meaning diverges based on the narrative focus: it either refers to "farmlands" as a collection of tangible assets and wealth (emphasizing what a person owns), or it refers to the "countryside" as a rural region (emphasizing where a person is, which is often the case in the New Testament). This distinction is most visible when the singular is used to describe the "open country" surrounding a settlement; in these instances, the word ceases to be about farming specifically and instead serves as a spatial contrast to the urban center. Essentially, the word transitions from a private asset (singular field/plural estates) to a public landscape (the rural surroundings). See: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=a)gro/s In the Gothic Bible, there are several references to fields, contexts that unambiguously refer to fields in an agricultural sense, whether in the plural or singular. For example, in Matthew 6:28: "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin." In this passage, the Gothic Bible uses haiþjos, the singular genitive of haiþi. It is the ancestor of the English heath and heathen. https://www.wulfila.be/gothic/browse/text/01/06/28.html#S1097 Therefore, I insist, weihs designates either a village or the country in its geographical sense. Not farmlands. If weihs was translating the word 'farmland' or 'field', it would have been used at least once in that sense. There are about ten instances where the Bible unambiguously mentions one or more fields. Similarly, that's why current translations of the Bible distinguish between country and fields.

I don’t see any relevance in this line of argument. Proto‑Indo‑European dates back to the Neolithic; its origin is probably around 4000 BC, which means it is even further removed from Proto‑Germanic than Proto‑Germanic is from our modern languages. In this situation, we’re comparing things that simply can’t be compared anymore. The purpose of this discussion is to try to understand what vocabulary speakers of Proto‑Germanic might have used to refer to their settlements. The Cimbri migrations took place around 100 BC. I don’t see the point of going back that much further. And if you want to talk about the reconstructed PIE form *ḱóymos, it did indeed yield *haimaz in Proto‑Germanic, but it also produced κώμη (kōmē) in Ancient Greek and káimas in Lithuanian, both of which can be used to refer to a village. Kōmē is precisely the form chosen to designate the first phase (village) for Greek civilizations in the game… So it’s a bit inconsistent to criticize that choice on the grounds that the older PIE form doesn’t necessarily refer to a settlement. That’s really stretching the argument, and I don’t see the point of it. In your message, you criticize me several times for relying on place names that date from a few centuries after the Cimbri period, but in the end, you are constructing an argument based on reconstructions of a language that predates Proto-Germanic by several millennia. The fact that a word’s etymology can have multiple meanings does not mean that the word itself is ambiguous. In the case of the Proto-Germanic word *haimaz, it is clear that the meaning as "village" has been preserved in several Germanic languages. We saw it is the case in Gothic, but it is also the case in Old English with hām, in Old Saxon with hēm and in Old Franconian with the word haim which gave the French "hameau" (hamlet). This is also visible in German place-names and it is an undisputed view that Heim was also used for collective dwellings. See the excerpt from the Deutsches Ortsnamenbuch. There is no reason to believe that this is an innovation of the Gothic language. This is an original meaning that has lost its significance over the centuries and with the evolution of Germanic societies. A process similar to the one I advocate for þurpą but in the other direction. Once again, I don’t understand the point of your message. I never said that Old Norse or Old English was older than the other. I’m simply saying that the source you used (Lehmann) suggests that the word þurpą originally referred to a farm, and that the meaning “village” appeared later. In this discussion, the only reason to use medieval Germanic languages is to understand the semantic evolution of words from Proto‑Germanic onward. The context we’re interested in is Proto‑Germanic. In Old Norse, as in Gothic, the word derived from þurpą seems to have preserved its original meaning, that of a farm or agricultural estate. This supports my initial point: the meaning of þurpą in Proto‑Germanic must have been “farm.” And there is no doubt that Old Norse preserved the meaning of “farm” or “agricultural estate.” This is very clear in the poems of the Edda, especially in Hávamál and Vafþrúðnismál. In the Danelaw and in the earliest written records from Denmark, we see that þorps refers exclusively to secondary settlements that depend on a larger primary settlement. In those cases, þorps can refer both to hamlets and to isolated farms. We see the same thing in medieval Scandinavian law codes: þorp retains the meaning of “farm” as well as “village.” There is, however, a notable case in medieval Swedish law where þorp still means specifically “farm” in Old Swedish, which seems to have preserved this original meaning even longer. The evolution of the Germanic languages clearly shows this semantic shift from “farm” to “village.” It’s an understandable shift, since it follows the same pattern as Latin villa, which eventually gave the word “village.” I have taken the time to demonstrate that studies of place names generally indicate that -Heim was used in the oldest layer of place names. Without exception, these studies show that there were several periods characterized by different dynamics in the rules governing the naming of new settlements. It is clear that the trend involving -Dorf emerged relatively late, and this precisely explains what we observe in the various Germanic languages. There was a semantic shift that accompanied the social changes that transformed Germanic societies.

New anthem?

The Caledonians are considered to be part of the Britons. Besides Brochs and Crannogs, there isn't a lot of information. There is a book called Celtic Scotland by Ian Armit. During the period 500 BC - 1 AD ? I don't know much about Pre-Roman Sweden. I don't think I can help you with those.

for inspiration

What place names can tell us (Was Ortsnamen uns erzählen können) Selected excerpts from this article: https://nationalatlas.de/nadbeitrag/was-ortsnamen-uns-erzaehlen-koennen/ I translated them from German to English. Here: The oldest settlement names in Central Europe date back to pre‑Germanic times. They are of Celtic or Romance origin and appear above all in the western and southern Germanic regions of the Germania Romana. The earliest Germanic names occur somewhat more frequently; they often end, for example, in ‑lar or ‑mar. After the Migration Period, beginning in the 4th century, the first major wave of land appropriation took place, during which fertile and easily cultivable areas were settled. Typical place‑name endings from this period include ‑heim, ‑ingen, ‑stedt, and ‑stetten. In the Merovingian era (6th–8th century), the settlement area was expanded (early period of development). Settlement names ending in ‑dorf, ‑hausen, and ‑weiler generally date from this time. The greatest expansion of settlement in Central Europe occurred during the clearing periods beginning around the 8th century. The old settlement landscapes were largely populated; people then began to push into the low mountain ranges. At first, the edges of the mountains and the valleys were settled (e.g., ‑bach, ‑born, and ‑brunn). From about the 10th century onward, and throughout the High Middle Ages, the forest was increasingly pushed back and new settlements were established. Typical place‑name endings from this period indicate the clearing process, such as ‑roth, ‑rieth, ‑reut, ‑brand, ‑schwand, ‑hau, ‑schneid. – dorf The most common place‑name ending of the Middle Ages is likely ‑dorf (in northwestern Germany also ‑trup and ‑drup). Settlements of this name type first appeared during the early development phase (5th/6th century) in the Rhine–Moselle region. They then spread throughout the entire German‑speaking area and remained in use throughout the Middle Ages. As in most early place names, the determining element is usually a personal name or the name of a kin group. – ingen Place names ending in ‑ingen are, alongside the ‑heim names, among the typical settlement names of the Germanic land‑taking period (from around the 4th century). Although modern scholarship rejects the earlier ethnic interpretation—‑ingen in Alemannic areas, ‑heim in old Frankish regions—the distribution map clearly shows a strong spatial concentration of ‑ingen names in the southwestern German Alemannic‑Swabian area. In the Bavarian region, the corresponding ending is ‑ing. The linguistic adaptation in French is ‑ange. Place names as sources for settlement history using the example of Northwest Switzerland (Ortsnamen als Quellen für die Siedlungsgeschichte am Beispiel der Nordwestschweiz) I'm posting a translated excerpt from the article; the original is available here: https://toponymes.ch/Texte/Siedlungsgeschichte.pdf 6.6. ‑heim and ‑dorf Names, Other Alemannic Settlement Names The ‑heim and ‑dorf names in northwestern Switzerland are not entirely easy to interpret. ‑heim names are usually assigned to the oldest naming layer. In our region they occur only twice (Arlesheim and Riehen) and are generally regarded as outliers of the numerous Alsatian ‑heim names. ‑dorf names are likewise rare here; apart from Rodersdorf, all of them lie near the Hauenstein route. Niederdorf and Oberdorf are clearly secondary. They were introduced in 1285, after a massive landslide, to designate the remaining parts of the village of Onoltzwil. Frenkendorf, Füllinsdorf, and Arisdorf—since they lie in the middle of a zone with demonstrably unchanged Romance names—are hardly to be counted among the oldest Alemannic layer either, but should rather be attributed to the period of territorial expansion in the 7th and 8th centuries. The remaining Alemannic settlement names, which all belong at the earliest to the period of Alemannic territorial expansion, are distributed fairly evenly across our region. Gothic Online - Lesson 6 - Todd B. Krause and Jonathan Slocum https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/gotol/60 Interesting article on the Gothic Social Organization, using both etymology and semantic analysis of the Gothic bible to interpret the structure of the Gothic society. The introduction explains correctly why etymology alone is not a solution to understand ancient societies. háims: the organized village. This is the basic center of agriculture and commerce. weihs: essentially equivalent to the háims as the organized village and basic center of commerce. Schwarz, Ernst (1952). Die namenkundlichen Grundlagen der Siedlungsgeschichte des Landkreises Regensburg. Verhandlungen des Historischen Vereins für Oberpfalz und Regensburg 93, 25–64. PDF: https://www.heimatforschung-regensburg.de/1636/1/1355091_DTL1354.pdf Ernst Schwarz’s 1952 article offers one of the most detailed onomastic analyses of early Bavarian settlement in the Regensburg region. It pays particular attention to the rare and archaic suffix -weichs, documenting its limited survival in the oldest settlement zones south of the Danube and its rapid replacement by more productive suffixes. Here is a summary of the information concerning the toponyms in -wihs or -weichs in Ernst Schwarz’s document: Etymology and meaning Linguistic origin: The suffix derives from Old High German (OHG) wihs meaning “village” (compare Gothic weihs, which means “hamlet” or “settlement”). Link with Latin: The text specifies that this term is cognate with Latin vicus (“village”), but stresses that it is not a borrowing from Latin; it is a native Germanic root. Semantic distinction: This root must not be confused with the word wih meaning “sacred” (as found in Weillohe or Weihenlinden). Chronology and period of colonization Oldest layer: Names in -weichs are classified among the earliest foundations, dating from the initial colonization period (Landnahmezeit) in the 6th century and the expansion phase of the 7th century. Reference group: They are systematically associated with toponyms in -ing, -inghofen and -heim as evidence of the primitive Bavarian settlement in the Regensburg region. Specific examples identified to illustrate this type Weichs: Mentioned around the year 881 in the form ad Uuihsfo. Schwabelweis: Attested since 821 in the form Suabiluuis. The text explains that this name is a compound of the root -wihs and the personal name Swäbilo. Geographical distribution and decline Geography: These names are found in the oldest settlement zones, notably along the Danube and south of the river. Disappearance of the suffix: The use of wihs remained very localized and ceased early. It is not found in later colonization areas (such as the Upper Palatinate or Austria). Linguistic competition: The term eventually disappeared in favor of other synonyms or semantically related words such as bur, heim, hofen, hausen and especially dorf, which became far more common for designating villages in the subsequent phases of settlement history.

Sure. It pretty straightforward for those. Teutobod = *þeudō (people, tribe) + *budô (voice, message, command) = Þeudōbudô Lugius = *Lugi- (of the Lugii) + *-jaz (equivalent to Latin name ending in -ius) = Lugijaz Boiorix = *Bajā-/*Boio- (of the Boii) + *-rīks (king) = Bajārīks

By the way, your own source supports my point: "Similarly Go. þaurp 'land, lived-on property' is the translation for Gk agrós 'land', much like ON þorp 'farm, estate'; only in the later West Germanic texts does its cognate mean 'village' as in OE þorp, OHG dorf." And when he writes "It is found only in the accusative plural in Gothic, where haimos in Matthew 9:35 translates the Greek word for village, and in Mark 5:14 the word for country;", I just proved above that there are mentions in singular forms. Just see Mark 11:02, Luke 9:52 and Luke 19:30

Boiorix and Lugius are probably Celtic but we can Germanize their names. So it would be Þeudōbudô, Lugijaz and Bajārīks.

Good. It is easier then.

A first draft, some names are quite difficult to interpret in Proto-Germanic (PGmc) Historical names Etymology Meaning PGmc reconstruction Claodicus *hlūd- + *īk- "Powerful through his fame" *Hlūdagīkaz Caesorix *gaizaz + *rīks "King of the spear" *Gaizarīks Teutagonus *theudō + *gunthiz "People's battle" *Theudagunthaz Cotto *kath- / *kott- "The fighter (diminutive)" *Kottō Deldo *dal- / *del- "The shining one or the sharer" *Deldō Atès / Atas *attō "Father (honorific title)" *Attō Nasua *nas- "The one who has a (large) nose" *Nasuō Cimberius *kimbra- + *-jaz "The one of the Cimbri" *Kimbarjaz

I'd like to return to this point because I've noticed my message wasn't understood. When I say that Euler represents a school of thought from the mid-20th century, I don't mean that he originated from that era, but rather that he is associated with that methodology. Wolfram Euler is a German linguist specializing in Indo-European languages, whose work is rooted in the tradition of classical philology. An independent but prolific researcher, he distinguishes himself through an approach based on traditional comparative analysis, the study of hydronyms, and internal reconstruction, rather than the multidisciplinary methods that dominate the field today (such as phylogenetic modeling, computational linguistics, or historical sociolinguistics). This methodological orientation, rigorous yet conservative, gives his publications strong internal consistency while placing him on the fringes of mainstream theoretical trends. His best-known contributions concern the history of Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages, where he defends several minority positions: a prolonged cohesion of West Germanic, a location of the Germanic Urheimat in Central Germany rather than Scandinavia, an internalist interpretation of Germanic innovations, and a critique of the existence of a unitary Proto-Balto-Slavic language. He also adopts a late chronology for the formation of Proto-Slavic, following the thesis of Georg Holzer. While these propositions are rigorously argued, they stand in clear opposition to the prevailing consensus and are regarded as heterodox contributions rather than authoritative reference models. For these reasons, Euler cannot be presented as a representative of the general scientific community's viewpoint. His work is respected for its erudition and precision, but it does not form the basis of the reconstructions accepted by the majority of Indo-Europeanists. His adherence to an ethno-historical lens, which explains linguistic shifts primarily through population movements and ethnic continuities, stands in sharp contrast to the modern archaeological and linguistic 'caution' (notably due to the rejection of the Siedlungsarchäologie). Coupled with his ties to conservative intellectual circles (like the Bibliothek des Konservatismus in Berlin), this methodological stance consigns his work to the margins of mainstream academia, even as the erudition of his research remains recognized. Personally, I don't think this is a figure to be put forward as an absolute reference in a debate.

I know, I saw the repo. This is a good idea but again I want to advise you that you should really avoid carving up certain civs just to force them into one side of the fence. For example, with the Germanic peoples, I find it clumsy to restrict oneself to representing either the period before our era or the period after our era. You will have this problem with other civs like the Dacians and the Parthians. It's best to put these kinds of civs in Empires Besieged rather than Empires Ascendant. Since Empires Besieged is a kind of expansion, it is less of a problem to have a civ that includes some of its elements that date back to the period before our era. I understand that you did not want Empires Ascendant to extend into the period of our era. It seems that this is the key point of contention. So it's better to accept some overlap in the other direction. If the mod includes civs with characters and references that span both periods, it's much less of a problem than if it were the base game.

It's good to return to a more reasonable position. I would remind you that in 2021, there were proposals to replace Boudicca in order to respect this cutoff. Especially if the team members decide to make Empires Besieged an official mod that simply adds content (notably new playable civilizations), it has to be flexible. Historical cultures that fall on both sides of this arbitrary boundary will pose a problem otherwise.

In any case, it's you and @real_tabasco_sauce who decide. Noted.

I don't know, probably a bad dream. Thanks for the clarification. Should we use names that do not originate from the migration of the Cimbri?

@real_tabasco_sauce@Vantha Which option do you prefer? @Obelix suggested making variations on the few known names. I posted a series of character names related to Germanic peoples dating back to the period before our era. Which ones are you interested in? Should we reconstruct them in Proto-Germanic?

Yes, unfortunately, that's somewhat of a problem with conceptualizing the Germanic peoples based on a very short period in their history, namely the migrations of the Cimbri, Teutones, Ambrones, and Tigurini. Not only are these historical events not very well documented, but it's also unclear what is Celtic and what is Germanic in the accounts. To my knowledge, only the names Boiorix, Lugius, Teutobod, Claodicus, and Caesorix are known. There is also Divico for the Tigurini mentioned by Caesar as having fought against Lucius Cassius in 107 BC (Agen). If we look elsewhere among the other Germanic peoples, there are Cotto, Clondicus, Deldo and Teutagonus, chiefs of the Bastarnae or of the Peucini. They are all mentioned by Livy except Teutagonus who is mentioned by Valerius Flaccus. There is also a chief of the Sciri mentioned on a stelae decree of Histria/Istros, his name is 'Atès' or 'Atas'. Finally there is Ariovistus of the Suebi mentioned by Caesar. There are also two brothers, Nasua and Cimberius, leading a coalition of the Suebi from Germany to reinforce Ariovistus' forces. There are, of course, many well-known characters such as Arminius and Maroboduos, but there is no chance of ever seeing them appear in the base game. Now, the problem with the names I mentioned above is that we need to reconstruct them into Proto-Germanic for the Germanic characters and translate them into Gaulish for the Celtic characters.

It is indeed quite difficult to find exact equivalents for village, town, and city in Proto-Germanic, but Wufila's Bible is a truly incredible resource for this, as he had to translate many Greek terms into Gothic so that they would be understandable to the Goths. In Wufila's Bible, there is a sort of hierarchy with Haims << Baurgs and Weihs << Baurg. Haim- is used for villages and hamlets. To designate less densely populated rural communities. A few examples: Mark 6:56 : ...jah þisƕaduh þadei iddja in haimos aiþþau baurgs aiþþau in weihsa... / ...And whithersoever he entered, into villages, or cities, or country... Mark 5:14 : ...gataihun in baurg jah in haimom. / ...they announced it in the city and in the countryside. Mark 11:2 : ...gaggats in haim þo wiþrawairþon iggqis... / ...go your way into the village over against you... Luke 9:52 : ...galiþun in haim Samareite... / ...entered into a village of the Samaritans... Luke 19:30 : ...in þo wiþrawairþon haim.../ ...in the village across the way... Luke 5:17 : ...þaiei wesun gaqumanai us allamma haimo Galeilaias... / ...which were come out of every village of Galilee... Luke 17:12 : ...jah inngaggandin imma in suma haimo, gamotidedun imma taihun þrutsfillai mans... / ...And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers... Matthew 9:35 : jah bitauh Iesus baurgs allos jah haimos laisjands in gaqumþim ize... / And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues... Luke 8:1 : ...ei jah is wratoda and baurgs jah haimos merjands... / ...that he went throughout every city and village... Luke 9:6 : ...and haimos wailamerjandans... / ...and went through the villages... Luke 9:12 : ...ei galeiþandans in þos bisunjane haimos jah weihsa saljaina... / ...that they may go into the villages and country round about... Mark 8:26 : ...ni in þata weihs gaggais, ni mannhun qiþais in þamma wehsa. / ... Don't even go into the village, nor tell anyone in the village. Luke 8:34 : ...jah gataihun in baurg jah in weihsa. / ...and went and told it in the city and in the country. The issue with Þaurp is that it is mentioned only a single time in a fragment of the Old Testament in Gothic (Codex Ambrosianus D) and it can only mean in this case 'farmland' or 'estate' because it is used for Nehemiah 5:16. It cannot refer to a village or a hamlet in this context, it is a field.