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And another detailed example of Achaemenid imperial iconography (on Darius' tomb):

Actually the idea of trying to incorporate parts of the mod into the main game was suggested by WFG team members. @StopKillingMe Would you mind elaborating on what you dislike about @borg- mod in a constructive fashion ?

Yeah, I'm a pretty bad AI though.

Dude, I'm not taking decisions alone, I made a MOD, if people like it and implement it, great, otherwise it will continue to be a mod. I'm here just defending my mod and why it might be implemented, not trying to make people swallow it dry. Besides, it was not me who mentioned the mod in this conversation, it was other people who wanted it. If I had done this just for the new versions, I would be in the phabricator now and not in the mod.io.

There is no bug in the forums, but your threads would stop disappearing were they a little more productive.

@thankforpie I'm leaning very close to banning you if you keep this up, please stop with this nonsense. If you want to make things up go write a novel or something.

The Germans Cimbri, Suebians, Goths https://github.com/JustusAvramenko/delenda_est/commit/74653b71376ba38593f675e4051586769292b59b https://github.com/JustusAvramenko/delenda_est Need halp from our resident historians, artists, and reference gatherers. Units Since the Suebi were a tribal confederation, units will have tribal designations, for example: Marcomanni Spearman, Quadi Light Cavalry, etc. Goths will represent the "later" Germans, with round shields, more helmets, more chain mail, greater cavalry. Suebian units look like "early" Germans, with hexagonal shields, fewer helmets, less chain mail, greater reliance on infantry. Basic units - Bare chested or Animal hide. Pants. Shield. Weapon. No helmet. Advanced units - Shirt. Pants. Shield. Weapon. No helmet. Elite units - Shirt. Pants. Cape. Shield. Weapon. Simple Germanic helmet. Champions and Heroes - Heavy body armor. Germanic helmet. Suebian Heroes Ariovistus Leader of the Suebi and other allied Germanic peoples in the second quarter of the 1st century BC. He and his followers took part in a war in Gaul, assisting the Arverni and Sequani in defeating their rivals, the Aedui. They then settled in large numbers into conquered Gallic territory, in the Alsace region. They were defeated, however, in the Battle of Vosges and driven back over the Rhine in 58 BC by Julius Caesar. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ariovistus Maroboduus King of the Marcomanni, who were Germanic Suebian people. He spent part of his youth in Rome, and returning, found his people under pressure from invasions by the Roman empire between the Rhine and Elbe. He led them into the forests of Bohemia, adjacent to the Quadi who already lived nearby, and established a large alliance. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Maroboduus Ballomar Leader of the Marcomanni. At first a Roman client ruler; during the first Marcomannic War he formed an alliance with other Germanic tribes and invaded Italy. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ballomar Arminius Was a Roman officer and later chieftain of the Germanic Cherusci tribe who is best known for commanding an alliance of Germanic tribes at the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in 9 AD, in which three Roman legions under the command of general Publius Quinctilius Varus were destroyed. His victory at Teutoburg Forest would precipitate the Roman Empire's permanent strategic withdrawal from Magna Germania. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Arminius Found in the Mercenary Camp. Goth Heroes Alaric I History Wiki Link Theodoric I History Wiki Link Theodoric the Great History Wiki Link Buildings All wooden, less health than "standard" civs. "Walls" are a wooden stockade, halfway in strength between palisades and stone walls. "Fortress" is wooden. Building "shapes" should roughly follow Empires Ascendant standard, but with a Germanic veneer or aesthetic. There can be some unique exceptions for visual variety however. Maybe houses are longer than they are wide with a rectangular footprint, in contrast to other civs whose houses generally fit a square footprint. Suebians Rally Point Flag General Look References Civic Center House Storehouse Farmstead/Corral (combined building) Dock Market Temple Glory Statue Forge (aka "Blacksmith") Defense Tower Barracks Stable Archery Range Great Hall (Special Building) Siege Workshop Fortress Town Walls Wonder Goths Civic Center House Storehouse Farmstead/Granary Dock Temple Glory Statue Forge (aka "Blacksmith") Defense Tower Barracks Stable Archery Range Siege Workshop Fortress Town Walls Wonder Gameplay Suebians still use standard territorial gameplay, but have an ox cart dropsite. Later Goths will have more of a nomadic gameplay (like Huns or Scythians) with no territory. It would be interesting if Hyrule:Conquest's hero selection UI could be used to "split" the Goths into Visigoths and Ostrogoths. Art Needed Each one needs its own civ emblem. Unit head models with the "Suebian Knot" and beards for the Suebian units. New unit body and shield textures. Some new helmet models. New building art set.

We just need some serious and organized playtesting by devs, pro-players and community members alike, over a period of a few months at least... Then small or big adjustments can be made as we go. I don't think anyone is arguing for blindly incorporating the entire mod just like that. Of course it needs to be scrutinized (as a historical enthusiast for example, I was a little unsure how I felt about flaming arrows, which I read somewhere). But as has been pointed out several times already, it's difficult to assess the quality of the changes if you don't test the whole shebang, as it are all interdependent changes, which is a really good sign actually... It means we'll have a more integrated game. @borg- don't let the few individuals get to you. If the mod was really that well received, which is was, there's value in adapting it, at least in part, to vanilla. I for one would appreciate a detailed rundown of all the changes and why. It would make it easier to discuss. You've clearly done a lot of work, but aiding the devs by creating individual patches for everything seems to be what they need, so please help them with this, as you know your mod better than anyone. That doesn't mean that the patches need to be tested individually for their effect on the balance of the game. Just keeping it "overviewable" and easily adjustable. For the critics: how hard is it to point out exactly, or just outline what your problems with the mod are? The current balance and meta are bad for competitive play. Someone is doing something about it. Help the person instead breaking him down.

Right, the game needs to phase out all those old oak tree refs from the maps. I don't know how to do that in the map scripts (though maybe some simple replace commands in Notpadd++ could work), but perhaps I can do it for you in the Scenario and Skirm maps.

Those trees too. Perhaps if we can get @LordGood to revamp the existing trees we can work on making the terrains better and then maybe someone like @elexis can help revamp the random maps. There's so much better content in the game now, these maps need to be updated.

But this system won't lead to a balanced game, by viewing isolated patches people can only see so much, they won't see the end product and won't be able to say if the game is balanced or not. (and to which point do you want it divided ?) The mod could be broken into some components, like counter system, civ bonuses and unit statistics adjustement, but in the end its purpose would only be for developpers to make sure nothing is broken, it will not enable them to see if it is actually balanced or not.

Are the arguments over? thankforpie, you can create as many accounts as you want, your childishness shows your face in all of them.

What several people in this thread have been trying to point out, is that your mod does too many things at once. So if you all you want is make a mod that's fun to play, great, continue like this. If, however, you want to get something changed in the default 0 A.D. repository, then it has to be done in small steps, and for each change not only list what you do, but also explain why.

Cosmopolitan to the core, the Persian Empire levied a wide variety of troops from their vassal satrapies. Though their infantry were weak and poorly equipped, they could be massed in vast numbers. Their cavalry was strong and exotic yet expensive and included the fearsome cavalry archer, camelry, mahout elephants, and scythed chariots. They were known for their lavish wealth, grand architecture and strong trade empire through the Silk Road. Combined Arms Warfare is the watchword of the Persians. No branch should be able to win the battle alone but used together and correctly the Persians should be able to win. Melee infantry to pin the enemy down, range infantry to wear him down, and cavalry to finish the enemy by flanking. Persian units are individually weak, so the challenge of playing the Persians is making sure you avoid fighting on terms other than your own. Melee alone against hoplites should be suicide, for example, as should range or cavalry. ORIGINAL DESIGN In the new version of the mod, his spearman infantry is weaker.

This is a mod, I did this so players can play a decent game. If this is not implemented well, the mod will continue there. But I ask you, which team takes care of this at the moment? And I've told you before, if you continue with this shallow balance, it will never work. I can give you quick examples here. If u nerf gaul/brit, so pto is new op, if u nerf pto, rome/athen is new op. If i nerf slingers, so skir cav back op again, maybe archers. How long would it take for each such change to be made? 2 alphas for each change ?? I'm sorry, but that's not how you do it. That's why you delegate specialized people to do each type of service.

It is an independent mod to be added or not the original version. I'm working hard and fast, so that gives me enough time for me to have a good respaw and go changing what I need. Do you have another way to do it? Maybe, but I'm not seeing any at the moment. We have the same game inception screens as at least 6 years ago. We have range and stables for all factions, but they are not being used just because no one wanted to take a few days to work for it, not because it should be slow and gradual. Remote units are at least 3 years to be balanced, and what change have we had ?? Just changes races and poorly done, which end up leaving another op unit. As I said, balancing is the least of the problems, the design is that it is stopped.

Ugh, that preview image is ugly...

@gameboy Check all the boxes like in the screenshot and click OK, then update your copy and rebuild.

Enrique was our former art director but has not been active for over a year now and @LordGood is our current art lead.And there has been changes to the Ptolmaic texture set to be more colourful. Enjoy the Choice

Noted @Stan`, I forget where I read it but I'm sure I heard that stance from someone in development on the game, I think the person's username was Enrique who said something along those lines to another user named @Lion.Kanzen. But opinions change, maybe that's what has happened.

Take care everybody of own mental health. Don't get mad with things that're simple. Enjoy life, and such things.

true. borg mod adds a lot of variety, and maybe even it will take longer to learn than current 0ad IMO borg mods makes 0ad as interesting as 0ad can get. without borg mod, it will be just slinger-fest/gaul-fest/briton-fest for next months/years

Yeah, of course! But I was answering to Genava55.

The Lombards: The Ancient Longobards - Neil Christie The Lombards, also known as the Longobards, were a Germanic tribe whose fabled origins lay in the barbarian realm of Scandinavia. After centuries of obscurity during the long period of Roman domination in Europe, the Lombards began a concerted migration south-eastwards, coming to prominence immediately after the fall of Rome. Pushing across the Danube to occupy Hungary, the tribe emerged as a powerful protagonist in the former heartland of the Empire in the early sixth century AD. The Lombards subsequently invaded Italy in AD 568-569, where they successfully countered the Byzantines and established a kingdom based on the fertile north Italian plains. This endured for more than two centuries before its conquest by Charlemagne, and even after this defeat, a Lombard state continued to exist in southern Italy until the eleventh century. In this book, the author combines many sources, archaeological and historical, to offer a fresh and vividly detailed picture of Lombard society - its people, settlements, material and spiritual culture - and its evolution from martial 'barbarian' tribe to complex urbanized state. The Alamanni and Rome 213-496 - John F. Drinkwater The Alamanni and Rome focuses upon the end of the Roman Empire. From the third century AD, barbarians attacked and then overran the west. Some--Goths, Franks, Saxons--are well known, others less so. The latter include the Alamanni, despite the fact that their name is found in the French (''Allemagne'') and Spanish (''Alemania'') for ''Germany.'' This pioneering study, the first in English, uses new historical and archaeological findings to reconstruct the origins of the Alamanni, their settlements, their politics, and their society, and to establish the nature of their relationship with Rome. John Drinkwater discovers the cause of their modern elusiveness in their high level of dependence on the Empire. Far from being dangerous invaders, they were often the prey of emperors intent on acquiring military reputations. When much of the western Empire fell to the Franks, so did the Alamanni, without ever having produced their own ''successor kingdom.'' Edit: Варвары. Древние германцы: быт, религия, культура Малькольм ТоддВарвары. Древние германцы. Быт, религия, культура Everyday Life of the Barbarians: Goths, Franks, & Vandals От издателяАвтор этой книги попытался реконструировать социальную структуру и каждодневную жизнь варваров на основе обобщающих выводов археологов, наблюдений искусствоведов и лингвистов. Рассматривается промежуток времени от II в. до н.э., когда цивилизованные народы впервые обратили внимание на варваров, до периода Великого Переселения народов IV-VI веков н.э. Everyday Life of the Barbarians: Goths, Franks and Vandals With drawings by Eva Wilson. The "Barbarians" of the classical world - especially the Goths, Franks and Vandals - have been traditionally dismissed as savage hordes who sacked Rome and destroyed her Empire. It is only the discoveries of modern archaeology that have established a true picture of these versatile Germanic tribes who originally inhabited north-west Europe beyond the frontiers of the Roman Empire and who later penetrated every corner of Europe. Like the Celts, these tribes excelled in the arts of war - but warfare was far from being the whole of their life. They delighted in feasting, music, dancing and gaming. The tribes were organised in a rigorous social hierarchy and they practised a remarkably advanced system of agriculture. Their houses and furniture were simple but they took a particular pride in personal decoration: the surviving artifacts - especially ornamental metalwork - show a magnificent tradition of craftsmanship. Trade contacts, too, reveal a lively commerce with the Roman provinces and with their nomadic neighbours. This vivid and rounded portrait of the daily life of Rome's northern neighbours is a fascinating addition to the Publishers' Everyday Life series and a valuable complementary study to the volume on "Ancient Rome". Malcolm Todd, who is Lecturer in Archaeology at the University of Nottingham, has made use of his own research, and the illustrations - almost 100 in all - include a great deal of unfamiliar material. The Early Germans by Malcolm Todd The growing number of volumes in the "Peoples of Europe" series are generally quite useful to students of early medieval history; at less than 300 pages, they do well as surveys. This one, unfortunately, is one of the less readable efforts. Todd is interested in the Germanic tribes and their migrations from the early Roman Empire up to about 700 A.D., but he wanders from a chronological coverage of all the multitude of Germanic peoples (who never thought of themselves as "Germans" in the first place), to a topical one (chapters on economy and agriculture, social institutions, burial practices, trade and diplomacy, art and technology, etc), to a geographical survey divided into sections on Goths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Gepids, Lombards, and (oddly) Scandinavians. It's a confusing book to read, with various groups appearing (naturally) in each other's chapters. Todd also mentions in passing specialized information or rival interpretations of the sources that he apparently assumes everyone knows -- which is a bad assumption in a survey of this kind. While there's useful stuff here, I would not suggest this as a first resource for someone new to the field. Instead, I would recommend the separate books in this series by James on the Franks, Heather on the Goths, and Christie on the Lombards -- and Heather's latest, _The Fall of the Roman Empire_ (2006), over all of them. Goths in the Fourth Century This volume brings together many important historical texts, the majority of them (speeches of Themistius, the Passion of St Saba, and evidence relating to the life and work of Ulfila) not previously available in English translation. "...a compact and exciting do-it-yourself kit for the student of Gothic history... outstanding."—Bryn Mawr Classical Review

The time frame involved is basically from Ariovistus (58 BC) to Hermeric (441 AD) ? Focusing on the Suebian tribes ?

there are many others things to do. to make this works well. capturing balance or changes in the way you capturing certain buildings. cavalry melee is almost useless. the ram are little op. improving difference between units , classes. ranks, heroes... naval warfare still as started many years ago. development more technologies. even related to capture, because was one of big feature many years ago. team make an early good balance (A 6- A 11) , but at some point becomes hardcounters around alpha XV and replaced for some very soft counters. no same members no same opinions between them, the actual system is broken thats why i prefer Delenda Est, is more related to original team. please try to don't look angry. you are giving he the reason. many of your points are very empty. no real argument. (for example the future of the game). your opinion is noted but having a reverse effect. now I want test the mod.

Can't hardly say no to mods, they are the reason I'm still here and didn't quit years ago

borg please rejoin the game we are waiting... paused

Those are almost all old oaks, could be as simple as replacing them with the new oaks?

sorry I hope dont be kind of rude...which design concept are you talking about here? because they're several in many years. There's no clear counter system here. (actual). my opinion and comparing with others mods. the actual meta is spamming units. there are many issues, before start beta phase, the impatient of people isn't a matter o related to a stage.

Not all have had the luck to be born in an environment that guarantees English proficiency

Honestly I will not do that. If the developers and leaders some day want to implement the mod, fine, I'll be happy, otherwise I'll be happy to know that I've done a good job. I'm not going to make a document explaining why people should like my mod and implement this to the original game. I'm particularly happy with the mod and I'm even happier to know that the people who play the mod are loving it. The mod has a lot of donwloads and followers (mod.io), videos on youtube etc ... so thats all I need.

I said play with angle ( and hard to tell, your image is edited)

Being here since 2007 helps with getting a high number of posts, plus at least in the past there were a lot of staff-only discussions which means that it's not always visible how active the forums are or have been.

Hamarana- means “battla”, but what is -kuba and where did you find it? https://code.wildfiregames.com/D1935#80019

There must be some bug in forum software because my threads are dissapearing. I suggest updating to newest version of IPBB forum engine

Yes!

Will your behaviour improve? Honestly though, both my time, and your time, is better spent on constructive things than silliness, so just leave it and move on.

Scythians, Persians, and other Iranian peoples were well known for wearing trousers: Most of their units already have trousers, but some don't, so it would be great if that can be changed for the following: units/athenians/infantry_archer_c.xml (Scythian archer) units/persians/cavalry_swordsman_b.xml (Hyrcanian cavalry) units/persians/fisherman.xml units/persians/infantry_archer_b.xml (Sogdian archer) units/seleucids/cavalry_archer_b.xml (Dahae horse archer) (pers_infantry_javelinist_b and *_a don't have trousers either, but that's fine, because those are Anatolians Lydians.)

I think he was talking about big tiger's mod

Well actually I did not put a lot of new stuff, just a few things that were already in the code but that were not being used, some auras and techs, but i will do so, I will follow your tip. I'm preparing a "final" patch with the best balance possible. It should be ready in the next few days. After that I will apply to the snv a24.

The title of thread is: "Are there balancing changes planned for A24?"
 Instead of discussing this, the thread is becoming another hack and slash on 0AD's flawed gameplay mechanics. That's not what this thread was about and that's not what borg's mod is about. Obviously the one affects the other, but they're separate subjects. There are glaring balance issues that have little to do with gameplay, but which affect the enjoyability of competitive matches. Battering ram shenanigans. Slinger spam. Only 3-4 civs are played competitively. Underused units. etc. Borg is not a master of C++ to my knowledge. He is one of the best, or the best players out there and he has a lovely demeanor as well. He helps and teaches people how to play. He has used his experience and his skillsets to improve the balance of the game, with the stated intention of addressing many of the issues that many players have brought up repeatedly. If a team of experienced players commit to playtesting the mod and ironing out potential flaws, then we're looking at a tangible improvement in one aspect of the game. WHICH IS A GOOD THING. Regardless of whether it addresses core gameplay issues. That's a different subject, handled by different people with a different expertise. Borg's balance mod has been hugely constructive in terms of addressing some of the recurring issues that competitive players, as well as single players have complained about. Try to do your best to facilitate and improve on his productiveness!
 As for gameplay, don't get me wrong, I think 0AD can do way better. And we should actively try to overhaul (parts of) it. Unlike what some people say, 0AD is loads of fun. Otherwise none of us would be here. But it could be a lot better. Our biggest problem is lack of manpower. This is obvious. But some of the discussions on gameplay do little to inspire people to work on it. Quite the opposite. Even if I had the skills, which I don't, I'd be very hesitant to put my hand in this wasp nest. I had recently actually typed more than 4 pages of condensed suggestions for 0AD, thought through over a period of several months, many of which address gameplay one way or the other, but decided not to write it out and share it because it was obvious to me at the time that every capable person is already buried neck-deep in work. A lot of things that aren't immediately noticeable to the end user but are necessary, and often boring tasks just to keep this project going. Then my computer flipped out on me and I lost all my brilliant and not so brilliant suggestions (a sign, perhaps?). Anyway, my point is basically, learn C++ and javascript if your passion lies with improving gameplay mechanics. Seriously, we need the people! Be brave, put in the work, even if nothing comes out of it. That's the risk, and always will be. But at least you might actually learn something in the process, and inspire a more capable person to pick up the cause, or support you efferts. If you're not willing to put in the work, try to find people who are, outside of the small and already overworked pool of talented, yet under appreciated contributors. Scour forums of programmers and game-developers for capable and willing individuals. Talk to capable people in your environment, or make some publicity for 0AD on Youtube/social media, with the intention of "recruiting" people. We need people that understand what free and open source means. People that have the strength to walk the whole nine yards. Not more people that have pages of suggestions but can't do anything about it themselves and expect it to just be done, like a teenager that never folds the laundry but always has a closet full of fresh, clean clothes, and never even thinks of where they came from. @DarcReaver I agree whole heartedly that 0AD shouldn't try to be another AoE clone. But deciding what it shouldn't be is a lot easier than deciding which one of the infinite other possibilities it should be. Reaching a consensus seems to be one of the hardest things in the process. It's obvious that we all have our own ideal RTS in our mind, and it's also obvious that our definitions of ideal RTS are wildly divergent. We're all going to have to make compromises somewhere. But it shouldn't feel like a sacrifice. We need to develop a shared vision, in order to manufacture consent for our ideas. We need to foster good relations, first and foremost, because the most valuable resource to our disposal is the human resource. People need to want to work on something, not be made to feel inadequate, even though mountains have been moved over the past few years. I'm not saying you need to sweet talk anyone, just recognizing the work that has been done so far (I remember a time when 50 units would lag out the game, there were only a handful of civs, no walls, no MP, barely any gameplay at all... A complete mess, basically) [Pause Writing: there are pigs on the land! The same ones that had me up last night wondering if I'm being burglarized... Going to chase them away now. Update: The pigs are hostile! I repeat, THE PIGS ARE HOSTILE! Sending in the dogs... Hmmm, the dogs made the pigs bleed... Good! (Don't worry, the pigs are fine, just shaken) Bye Bye pigs. Doggos get some nice fish as reward. Good boys End Pause] Yes, I love art, history (antiquity in particular), variety, the ability to build a town, raise an army, murder the living daylights out of my opponents, or fight for survival. Those things make the game compelling to me, as for many others. Yes, the gameplay can be a little lackluster sometimes, but baby steps man, baby steps. It's only been about 15 odd years or so, give it some time, jeez Just kidding... Like I said, we need manpower. Without the right people with the right skills, we're going to be having these kind of discussions for many years to come. It's not as simple as just deciding what to do. Someone has to actually do it. And without pay, that might take a while. Also, just because the game isn't progressing as fast in the areas you'd like it to be progressing doesn't mean that there hasn't been stellar evolution in the quality, stability, performance and art of the game.. Not a personal attack, just a general observation. Obviously you do And that's not a bad thing. My point is, just to do what you can do. If you don't want to anymore, that's fine. But try to keep the criticisms constructive. 0AD and Wildfire Games forum are large communities. Even if we don't see eye to eye on some topics, there's always a myriad of other items we can work on, together, or separate. It doesn't matter how, as long as it mutually benefits us, there's reason to continue working on the project and sharing our progress as well. I see you're still around helping people here and there, so again, not necessarily a personal comment, just a general sentiment.

I have no problem with this because it effects Delenda Est not at all. I haven't bothered playing Vanilla much since nothing interesting has happened to the core mechanics in many years. I started DE on my own to change that. Only problem for me is that "balance" isn't what keeps me from playing Vanilla, the lack of new features does. But if better balance will keep other people playing and contributing, then that is a win. It's not like borg is neglecting his battalions and SSAO patches in favor of working on his balance mod...