Differentiating Civilizations: Sparta

[chrstgtr]

  On 27/06/2022 at 1:00 AM, Sevda said:

Now please give me a reason why I should spend 500 food 500 wood 750 stone and 750 metal to go to P3. I can destroy everyone in P1 at minute 11 if this happens. 

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Eco Techs. Military techs. Heroes. Siege.  Other p2 buildings like temples and markets. 
 

Basically every reason why you go p3 now. Most players don’t win now because they got p3 champs. All those current ways to win will still be possible

Edited June 27, 2022 by chrstgtr

[Pemulis]

  On 25/06/2022 at 10:19 PM, Dakara said:

3)If the changes by BORG are not accepted it will be necessary to think of buffing Sparta by the appearance of a long range unit (mercenary archer), if change of borg accepted it is necessary to keep the weakness of not having a long range unit distance

 

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Actually Sparta's army had also slingers, a role reserved to helots. 

Would be also very cool to consider a new unit based on the figure of the "aulos" players. Aulos is a sort of flute, and those players had the role to guide and keep orderly the formations of hoplites through their music. They were highly respected among the population.
They should have an aura and could give some bonuses only to infantry set on formation. Something similar to the Trumpeters of the Gauls.

"It was a sight equally grand and terrifying when they marched in step with the rhythm of the flute, without any gap in their line of battle, and with no confusion in their souls, but calmly and cheerfully moving with the strains of their hymn into the deadly fight. Neither fear nor excessive fury is likely to possess men so disposed, but rather a firm purpose full of hope and courage, believing as they do that Heaven is their ally."
Plutarch, The Parallel Lives (Chapter II, section III)

"And then there was the clash: the Argives and their allies advanced impetuously and full of anger, the Lacedaemonians instead advanced slow and at the cadence marked by numerous flutists placed among them not for reasons of religious worship but to be able to march in step with that rhythm and so the ranks would not get confused, which often happens to the great ones when they go to the assault "
Aulio Gellio, Noctic Atticae (I, XI, 1-5)

Could also be considered to add a new figure to the Temple: the oracle. Among ancient greek civilization was very common to make animal sacrifices towards the gods before engaging a battle, to determine their will.

We could add the possibility to train this figure inside the temple, who can use hunt to make those sacrifices. These can give positive or negative response, in a completely random way, with a consequent temporary bonus (or maybe a malus if response is negative) for the army. 
 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Pemulis

[borg-]

  On 25/06/2022 at 10:19 PM, Dakara said:

1)Change the tech bonus phase. Phase 2: 30% to 25% expand territory and add a gain of 1 metal every 5 seconds for each ally earned.  Phase 3: +50% to 45% expand territory and gain of 2 metal every 5 seconds for each possessed ally. Sparta acts for the protection of its allies against a tax. Of course for the gameplay we are not going to steal metal from the allies.    -> If it seems too complicated a slow flow of metal in phase 2 and a medium flow in phase 3. This should not be op. light economic support to produce a ram, 2 champion or a small technology every 10 minutes of play.

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I really liked this idea, although I think the territory gain is too high.

 

  On 25/06/2022 at 10:19 PM, Dakara said:

2)Every barack built give 2 free spermen. 

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Something I put in the borg expansion pack. There was a very simple and small edit of code for this. I don't know if we can do that at the moment, either way it's a nice change.

  On 25/06/2022 at 10:33 PM, alre said:

Civ bonus - Two kings: Spartan can have two heroes at the same time

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reat idea, although I don't know if it's possible with the current code, but it also shouldn't be something complex and big to do

 

  On 26/06/2022 at 3:20 PM, Dakara said:

so need change the word, so they are not mercenary but sparta siege, but recruit by group for 10pop.

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Change your cost too? Spartans didn't produce siege? Which civ did they buy from?

 

  On 26/06/2022 at 5:29 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Agis III

Change Agis III to III. He's now a pikeman and his special is that he can train a limited number of Champion Spartan Pikemen very quickly. This number can be per match or just a standard training limit.

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We definitely need an aura for this champion. I like this idea, although I don't find the limit interesting.

[Stan`]

  On 27/06/2022 at 3:02 PM, borg- said:

reat idea, although I don't know if it's possible with the current code, but it also shouldn't be something complex and big to do

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You have to change entity limits for the spartan player I think. Should be a simple template edit.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The 2 hero thing is possible, it's just odd to have Leonidas and Agis III acting as the two "kings." It'd work better if heroes were genericized. 

[alre]

  On 27/06/2022 at 7:23 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The 2 hero thing is possible, it's just odd to have Leonidas and Agis III acting as the two "kings."

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why? because they are not contemporary? it is said that part of the beauty of the game is that it allows factions who never met to encounter in fight, wouldn't be nice too to have two great kings of Sparta fight alongside?

attention must be paid to balance though.

[Genava55]

The other solution is that training Leonidas bring immediately another king (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leotychidas_II), the same with Agis III (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleomenes_II). While Brasidas (not being a king but a general) wouldn't bring a new one.

The other king could have a generic model.

Or, the two kings system could be simply a bonus if the hero dies the player got a large discount for the next one.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 27/06/2022 at 9:15 PM, Genava55 said:

The other solution is that training Leonidas bring immediately another king (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leotychidas_II), the same with Agis III (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleomenes_II). While Brasidas (not being a king but a general) wouldn't bring a new one.

The other king could have a generic model.

Or, the two kings system could be simply a bonus if the hero dies the player got a large discount for the next one.

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Or you can train each Spartan king twice instead of once.

[Lion.Kanzen]

the second king must be administrative.

[Outis]

  On 27/06/2022 at 7:23 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The 2 hero thing is possible, it's just odd to have Leonidas and Agis III acting as the two "kings." It'd work better if heroes were genericized. 

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Only one king is allowed to lead the army in battle since shortly before the Persian Wars. We do not hear much about the co-kings of famous Spartan kings, probably they are overshadowed by their more famous counterparts.

  On 28/06/2022 at 3:08 AM, Lion.Kanzen said:

the second king must be administrative.

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Maybe there can be a unique technology called Second King with unique bonuses for the hero trained?

[Freagarach]

The "main" king can recruit its counterpart? (once, obviously)

[borg-]

  On 28/06/2022 at 2:28 PM, Freagarach said:

The "main" king can recruit its counterpart? (once, obviously)

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It would be really fun for every hero to recruit their administrative king. Administrative kings would have economy aura while combat kings would have combat aura. For this though we need some additional modelds. Maybe in the short time the idea of being able to train two heroes at the same time is more interesting.

 

[Outis]

  On 28/06/2022 at 4:09 PM, borg- said:

It would be really fun for every hero to recruit their administrative king. Administrative kings would have economy aura while combat kings would have combat aura. For this though we need some additional modelds. Maybe in the short time the idea of being able to train two heroes at the same time is more interesting.

 

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Is the presence of the co-king necessary on the map? I was imagining him to sit in the Gerousia. Hence the proposal to include it as a tech rather than a unit.

Speaking of Gerousia, I think it would be great to include the building in the game. The model is already there...

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 28/06/2022 at 4:09 PM, borg- said:

It would be really fun for every hero to recruit their administrative king. Administrative kings would have economy aura while combat kings would have combat aura. For this though we need some additional modelds. Maybe in the short time the idea of being able to train two heroes at the same time is more interesting.

 

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I can whip up an "Administrative King" actor very quickly.

[Outis]

Another proposal:

Helots lose the ability to advance rank with experience, and

Introduce a technology pair:

1) Krypteia: Helots have (slightly) increased gather rates

Or

2) Neodamodeis: Helots gain the ability to advance rank with experience

The idea is to give the choice of either having better economy to support the production of the best infantry in the game or to have more variety in the military

[Outis]

  On 28/06/2022 at 5:00 PM, Outis said:

Another proposal:

Helots lose the ability to advance rank with experience, and

Introduce a technology pair:

1) Krypteia: Helots have (slightly) increased gather rates

Or

2) Neodamodeis: Helots gain the ability to advance rank with experience

The idea is to give the choice of either having better economy to support the production of the best infantry in the game or to have more variety in the military

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Background:

Krypteia was a practice (details not certain) to instill fear in the helots to discourage rebellion and maintain their social status as slaves. Neodamodes (pl. Neodamodeis) is the name given to the class of former helots who are given certain freedoms in exchange for military service. This was necessary due to the declining manpower.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

  On 28/06/2022 at 4:09 PM, borg- said:

It would be really fun for every hero to recruit their administrative king. Administrative kings would have economy aura while combat kings would have combat aura. For this though we need some additional modelds. Maybe in the short time the idea of being able to train two heroes at the same time is more interesting.

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There are a couple obstacles to that from a historical perspective.  First, kings had little authority outside of military matters.  Of course they did sit in the Gerousia, but Ephors were much more influential.  The second problem relates to the heroes used.  Brasidas is not a king.  The simplest option would be to introduce two kinds of heroes: Eurypontid and Agaiad, and have two or three of each.  The player could train one as the primary dynasty, and the second one could be unlocked via technology.  

 

  On 27/06/2022 at 3:02 PM, borg- said:

Change your cost too? Spartans didn't produce siege? Which civ did they buy from?

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The Spartans did besiege cities, but this was usually done by building siege walls (Take the siege of Plataea).  The ram is an adequate way of represent their less than creative means of taking cities.  

I appreciate your advocating for Spartans being available at phase 1.  I would, however, encourage two suggestions that I have made in a previous thread: make them free albeit with a long training time, costing 2 population, and limiting the number of Syssita to 1 +1 per next phase.  This would encourage Spartan production yet make it extremely difficult to mass.

[Lion.Kanzen]

  On 28/06/2022 at 9:28 PM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Of course they did sit in the Gerousia, but Ephors were much more influential.  The second problem relates to the heroes used.  Brasidas is not a king.  The simplest option would be to introduce two kinds of heroes: Eurypontid and Agaiad, and have two or three of each.  The player could train one as the primary dynasty, and the second one could be unlocked via technology

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This. This very good idea.

[Outis]

  On 28/06/2022 at 9:28 PM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

This would encourage Spartan production yet make it extremely difficult to mass.

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Putting some measure to limit the number of Spartans is a great idea because the main problem of Sparta was that the number of the Spartiates declined over time due to losses and debt. Their numbers could not be restored due to the rigid social structure.

[borg-]

  On 28/06/2022 at 4:27 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I can whip up an "Administrative King" actor very quickly.

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Yes pls.

[borg-]

Well what do we have for now:

- Spartiates are trained in phase 1. The suggestion of being free but very slow to train or a limit max of units is interesting

- Spartiates has upgraded to royal guard, costing a lot of metal/food, but gaining a good amount of health and attack. Max of 10 / 20 units

- Sissítia phase 1

- Gerusia returns to the game in phase 1

- Helot skimisher has less attack than other skirmishers in the game, but a technology available in gerusia (krypteia) allows helots to harvest grains much faster

- New movement speed technology for champion infantry

- Each Spartan hero will be able to train an administrative hero or if possible with the current codes, train both at the same time

- Sparta abre train helots slingers. Less attack than other slingers in the game, krypteia affects slingers too

- Each barracks built gets two hoplites

- Change team bonus. Allies gain an amount of gold per second and territorial gain.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

  On 29/06/2022 at 11:24 PM, borg- said:

- New movement speed technology for champion infantry

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perhaps just melee inf in general?

[chrstgtr]

My two cents and some suggestions for improvement:

  On 29/06/2022 at 11:24 PM, borg- said:

- Each Spartan hero will be able to train an administrative hero or if possible with the current codes, train both at the same time

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Sounds like fun

  On 29/06/2022 at 11:24 PM, borg- said:

- Each barracks built gets two hoplites

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I like this a lot too. Very unique and helpful. 

  On 29/06/2022 at 11:24 PM, borg- said:

- Change team bonus. Allies gain an amount of gold per second and territorial gain.

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I'm not a fan of getting rid of things that work and this seems like a change just for change's sake. I don't see anything wrong with the current bonus, which is very useful but not OP. 

The gold proposal also sounds very difficult to make useful without being OP. If the trickle is high enough to eliminate a need to gather metal for p2 techs then the bonus will probably be OP. If the bonus isn't strong enough to do that then it will provide almost no benefit. If you want to include some gold proposal then providing some gold discount for techs seems much easier to balance and more useful. 

  On 29/06/2022 at 11:24 PM, borg- said:

Helot skimisher has less attack than other skirmishers in the game

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  On 29/06/2022 at 11:24 PM, borg- said:

Sparta abre train helots slingers. Less attack than other slingers in the game, krypteia affects slingers too

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Not a fan of deviating from standard stats for common units. It makes the game more difficult to learn and harder to balance.

If so desired, I would introduce differences in the form of techs like "grain gather +20%; attack -10%"

  On 29/06/2022 at 11:24 PM, borg- said:

- Spartiates . . .  being free but very slow to train or a limit max of units is interesting

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This seems really difficult to balance. Making them free seems it could make them very easy to spam and OP (i.e., build three extra houses at very start and train 30 Spartiates so that at min 6 you have an unbeatable army--enemies also can't do anything to stop this type of spam bc it just requires time, which no rush can stop). If the training is super slow then I don't think anyone will bother to train them because they will take up too much pop space without providing any benefit. 

My suggestion is that we create an alternate way to make spartiates. All history texts tell us that Spartan citizens used to train all the time to becomes spartiates. Why don't we create a male citizen that does nothing but can train himself into a spartiate. This way the male citizen just takes up space and resources (I would set cost to 50 food) while being vulnerable to attack. This would provide a new, unique, and cheap way to get champs. But this also avoids the "too easy to mass" problem because they will be super vulnerable while "training" out in the open and the loss would costly.

[Stan`]

  On 30/06/2022 at 2:52 AM, chrstgtr said:

this a lot too. Very unique and helpful. 

  On 29/06/2022 at 11:24 PM, borg- said:

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  On 30/06/2022 at 2:52 AM, chrstgtr said:

Each barracks built gets two hoplites

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@Freagarach Not sure that's supported?

[Freagarach]

Where are the slaves for Sparta? They are also known for those? (Although I'd rather have slaves for all civs who employed them and some bonus for some civs.)

  On 30/06/2022 at 5:12 AM, Stan` said:

@Freagarach Not sure that's supported?

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Nope, it isn't.