[Brainstorming] Balancing Mercenary The primary suggestions comes from the cost. (Metal cost) - suggestion

[maroder]

Other option: increase loot in general, so you can have a little bit of a "war based" economy.

And talking about new merc mechanics, not as a suggestion but just for fun:

 

[Yekaterina]

Another method is to increase metal  distribution on the map

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, Yekaterina said:

Another method is to increase metal  distribution on the map

That is one of my favorites.

 

I want maps with more resources.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

Instant training is a very good idea. Carthage doesn't need that much mercenary to be honest. The mercenary heavy civs are Ptol, Mace, Sele

 

Only metal cost is realistic but makes them less accessible because in team games we are always short of metal

Yeah currently people go for mauritanian archers and libyan spearmen spam and maybe maybe have like 10 - 20 merc swordsmen to counter rams.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

I think we also have to be very carefull regarding what mercs are available to specific civs , not only to reduce redundancy  but mainly because we are proposing to make stronger ,  namely i would sugest having them be rank 2 from the get go and giving them the first attack upgrade from the armory( + 1 attack be it melee or ranged)  and  making the tech " expertise in war " being the rank 3 upgrade. Furthermore i would also disable their building mechanic to balance my earlier buffs and as professional soldiers they would only  fight.

[LetswaveaBook]

When it comes to elite rank soldiers, I would like to remind you of how strong they can be.

Even without micro, elite javelin cavalry can beat spear cavalry. Elite sword cavalry has a base of 6 pierce armor and 250 HP and good DPS, making it a very good units against ranged units and siege. When the Elite sword cavalry is compared to the champion spear cavalry, the Elite sword cavalry is surprisingly good considering its costs. Furthermore elite swordsmen are comparable to skiritai commandos while the mercenary probably will be cheaper.

I think that is something people should keep in mind.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

2 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

When it comes to elite rank soldiers, I would like to remind you of how strong they can be.

Even without micro, elite javelin cavalry can beat spear cavalry. Elite sword cavalry has a base of 6 pierce armor and 250 HP and good DPS, making it a very good units against ranged units and siege. When the Elite sword cavalry is compared to the champion spear cavalry, the Elite sword cavalry is surprisingly good considering its costs. Furthermore elite swordsmen are comparable to skiritai commandos while the mercenary probably will be cheaper.

I think that is something people should keep in mind.

This is true, and because of this now I am thinking it is better to keep expertise in war at rank 2 so that skill is needed to keep them alive to see veteran rank. I think reducing metal cost by 20 and adding 40 wood, 40 food or 30 stone to the existing costs is a great way to fix the usability/power problem for now. The mercenaries would still cost plenty of metal but would be worth the buy. I also think that 2 metal mines should be available to a player, one maybe a bit further out.

[Lion.Kanzen]

8 hours ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

Yeah currently people go for mauritanian archers and libyan spearmen spam and maybe maybe have like 10 - 20 merc swordsmen to counter rams.

I did the same. when I tried Carthage.

[Dakara]

Hi,

The subject of mercenaries is complex but brings an undeniable charm to combat and resource management.

Proposal: Differentiate between mercenaries and citizen-soldiers. This disturbs me personally but I think these proposals can give them their expected differentiation -> An identity.  Players who use it want to do battle with their opponents, either by quickly supporting an ongoing fight or by massing a beautiful, powerful army.

A lot of buff and debuff !

Buff :
1-training time 2 seconds, almost instant. It is already an invaluable force.

2-No rank system, the unit is already experienced in combat. The technology for the mercenary rank is to be removed.We avoid having mercenaries who are almost stronger than a champion and we do without unnecessary rank management.

3-Stats generally higher than citizen-soldiers and lower than champions. Current rank 2 equivalent.

4-A loot bonus of 10% (it's slight but to reward the good use of these mercenaries and to affirm the difference between citizens and mercenaries. Warning, 10% of 1 ressource = ? =  care.

Debuff :

5-No harvest, no construction, always the possibility of repairing.

6-A low cost of food and a high cost of metal. The current cost +5 METAL and 10 for CAV provided the METAL ISSUE is solved. If players get into the habit of mining 2 metal with less wood or food harvester. So with mercenary strategy is a little different economy.

METAL ISSUE :
I have already spoken about it in another subject. 
Badosu work for more balance map, more number of METAL spot, but i like really random for avoid the system of build order like age of empire. It my opinion. But all agree for more METAL spot on map i think.
Maybe we can have 2 options in lobby for random map: LOW METAL MAP AND METAL MAP NORMAL (like now+more metal spot on map).
But also a new technology which increases the efficiency of the collection -> With a mine of 1000 we can collect 2000 metal with a tech in the warehouse. This means that the speed is not increased but that in the long term we will have more Metal.

Others more original bulk idea:

7-This is not my delirium but I submit it to the debate, we can also imagine that the mercenaries would be recruited for a limited period, for example 5 minutes, increased to 7 in the presence of tech or heroes and would be overpowered (like champions but at the cost of a mercenaries), you get the idea?

8-Mercenary units can be given to allies. This is not a big buff or debuff but it can have a strategic aspect in team play.

11-The recruited units don't pop into the building but come from the edges of the maps ... (yeah I know it's crazy ...), both a buff and a debuff, it depends on the situation. Allows you to rush more easily for example. But who choose the position clock ??

12-Recruitment is different.  not one unit at a time but in groups of 10. A single group of the same type of unit of living mercenaries can be recruited at a time. It would only cost resources and training time of 20 seconds. Advantage: Does not cost population, units do not sleep in your houses.

12bis- We can see further with proposition 12. In this group there is an additional unit, a kind of mercernary half-hero. 500 HP which brings a military aura 20 yards around it. Increase the cost of Metal +150 compared to proposal 12. 

12bis-bis Siege group made up of several soldiers (around 10) and 1 powerful siege weapon. A group quickly ready for attack with a metal cost.

13- Mercenary same cost as now but they have all upgrade because they have own gear.All uprage do not apply to them. So if you rush METAL ECO you don't need blackmisth upgrade. Really strong.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Dakara

[maroder]

1 - 6  yes

7 & 11 nah

8 & 12  & 13 could be interesting

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Dakara said:

Proposal: Differentiate between mercenaries and citizen-soldiers. This disturbs me personally but I think these proposals can give them their expected differentiation -> An identity.  Players who use it want to do battle with their opponents, either by quickly supporting an ongoing fight or by massing a beautiful, powerful army.

Even between the two groups there were hybrids, which we will call auxiliaries.

The auxiliaries would be the conquered mercenaries, Whose land was annexed and now serve the nation that conquered it.

 

Among these troops are specialized units, And trash units ... like simple spearman cheap, to bulk the main infantry and combat corps.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Dakara said:

11-The recruited units don't pop into the building but come from the edges of the maps ... (yeah I know it's crazy ...), both a buff and a debuff, it depends on the situation. Allows you to rush more easily for example. But who choose the position clock ??

Ha and an idea over there in the planned options, about bringing in reinforcements.

 

Is in planned features.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Dakara This reminds me of AOE 3 with shipments.

 

I think that if mercenaries are to be expensive and only cost metal + small food, then there needs to be some options to get more metal than is logical to have mineable on the map at the start of the game. I think a combination of tax tech like @wowgetoffyourcellphone mentioned where each unit gives a trickle of metal, but works more slowly for every resource, and a storehouse tech, where double the metal can be extracted from 1 source like @Dakara said. The bonus of these upgrades is that they have drawbacks, Dakara one would be very expensive, wow idea would force a decision to dedicate to mercs (high risk). The nice thing about these upgrades is that they allow you to choose the amount you expect to be making mercs: a few for antiram, a bunch for small battles and raids, or a closer to full composition.

It will be very hard to balance these upgrades and mercenaries themselves right.

[Lion.Kanzen]

49 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Ha and an idea over there in the planned options, about bringing in reinforcements.

 

Is in planned features.

Feature	Relevant ticket(s)	Status
Ship boarding/capturing		Cut
Campaigns: Narrative	#4387	Cut
Reinforcements		Cut
Walls: Curtain Walls (centered on the Civic Centre)		Cut
Dynamically baked textures		Cut
Campaigns: Strategic ("Imperial Campaign" turn-based strategic map)		Cut
New combat system	#4545	Cut

 

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/GameplayFeatureStatus

[Yekaterina]

I like points 1,2,3,4,6,8,11 by @Dakara

The other ones are quite ambitious, I am not sure if I can agree fully.

[LetswaveaBook]

On 11/05/2021 at 8:37 PM, Dakara said:

1-training time 2 seconds, almost instant. It is already an invaluable force.

I think it might be cool if we coupled this with making expertise in war a trade of tech,where expertise in war is 300m but gives you original training times. So now you have to chose between either lightning fast reinforcements or advanced rank mercenaries. I think both could have their charm. And once a game you could of course first train the lightning fast and then upgrade those you already have.

On 11/05/2021 at 8:37 PM, Dakara said:

8-Mercenary units can be given to allies. This is not a big buff or debuff but it can have a strategic aspect in team play.

I think this would be cool. If you have  a super rich ally he could help you out at a hefty price, since they aren´t cheap.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Right now I can not decide which is better:

1. keeping existing mercenary upgrades and mechanics, but shifting some cost away from metal and toward some other resource, stone or food or wood, depending on unit. This would make mercenaries still expensive, but viable, but diminishes their role from hired soldiers to simply sub-champs.
2. Doubling down on the metal cost for mercenaries: making an awesome new gameplay and eco style variation, but requiring changes to trade system, metal availability upgrades, changes to "expertise in war", changes to metal spawnrate per player. (Perhaps also changing the phase which different mercenaries are available in: p1 merc rush could be a fun element for a bunch of civs)

I think I would prefer option 2, but I am worried that the system of changes might not get implemented together and in the right amounts. I am worried that if it is not implemented holistically that it could make mercenaries even worse.

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 11/05/2021 at 1:01 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Right, that's why I came up with the "War Taxes" tech idea.  

What is that?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

47 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

What is that?

Page 1:

 

On 11/05/2021 at 1:36 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

My opinion:

• Mercenaries should not need any training. They are hired, not trained, fully ready for campaign.
  • Effect: Mercenaries train instantly or very fast (5 seconds or less). 
• Part of a Mercenary's compensation is plunder, that sweet sweet loot they can send back to their families in Bumfuq Arcadia. 
  • Effect: The <Looter> component is disabled.
• Mercenaries are usually already experienced at war (or garrison duty at least).
  • Effect: Most mercenaries train at Advanced rank. Some (Balearic Slinger, for example) train at Elite rank, with additional cost.
• Mercenaries are paid a wage and buy their own provisions.
  • Effect: All mercs cost Metal and only Metal ("Coin" in Delenda Est was designed for this purpose). Cavalry mercs cost more.
• Hiring Mercenaries is expensive, and kings had to heavily tax their subjects in order to afford large numbers of mercenaries.
  • Effect: A new tech at the Market, "War Taxes", gives the player a trickle of Metal from every Citizen and Trader, but reduces their gather rates. 

 

On 11/05/2021 at 1:49 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Ptolemies and Carthaginians are our main "mercenary" civs. To pay for their large number of mercenaries, I propose these solutions:

Carthaginians were consummate traders and merchants. This mercantile empire helped them hire vast numbers of expensive mercenaries.

• A significant trading bonus in metal, over land and sea (above and beyond their "regular" trading bonus).

Ptolemaic Egypt had a large surplus of food and would sell this surplus to international buyers (to Rome is a famous, but not the only, example).

• A significant bonus in bartering food to metal.
• A bonus in receiving metal tribute from allies.

 

[alre]

I like the proposal of @Dakara of disabling the rank system for mercenaries. It's a good idea because makes them an instant reward (good warrior, fast train), but not a long term investment. That would be even more evident if combined with @wowgetoffyourcellphone's proposal of negating loot collected from them. Pushing it a little more we can even make that they are not cured by garrison or temples, so they are 100% expendable. Making them builders maybe, but not gatherers, would also help in this same direction.

For better distinction, we could give mercs a selection circle with a square inside, like chinese coins: it's a symbol easy to recognise internationally, but I guess if we wanted better cultural coherence, we could make different symbols in the circle for each civ, resembling their coinage. I say the square is a good option. A variation is needed if they are made so different from citizens.

About making them in ready-made companies, I support the idea, I had proposed the same here: 

 

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

Negating the loot and making them ungarrisonable and not be healed by buildings is a great way to balance them if they end up coming up with stats between champ and CS. The one thing i would add is that maybe we have to revision what mercenaries are available to each civ.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Page 1:

I figured, I had already forgotten the context of this debate.

[Palaiologos]

3 hours ago, alre said:

we could give mercs a selection circle with a square inside

square or diamond shape would be wonderful

[Stan`]

9 hours ago, Palaiologos said:

square or diamond shape would be wonderful

We have square, diamond I'm not sure. It's an easy patch with @wraitii's new mixin feature. (And likely without)

[Palaiologos]

12 hours ago, Stan` said:

We have square, diamond I'm not sure

I should have stated more clearly. Rhombus* or a rotated square.

 

On 15/05/2021 at 6:34 PM, alre said:

For better distinction, we could give mercs a selection circle with a square inside

"Selection circle" -  Thought this was what @alre was referring to...

Anyway, not sure that other players would agree if they were given a distinct, defining shape. Always felt Mercenaries were sort of a unique unit however, especially with the suggestions/opinions made by@wowgetoffyourcellphone