badosu Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) They really need some anti-ram unit, ram is not a proper ram counter. It seems there were sword cav units (Paeonian and Thracian Cavalry), were there enough numbers to justify including them? It seems that swords were also used as secondary weapons by some infantry, but making this work would open a can of worms (many other units had secondary weapons or dual-mode usage)Any of our in-house historians know of any unit that could fulfill the role? Edited July 3, 2020 by badosu 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feldfeld Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) Champions could be okayish if they get balanced (although there is still the problem if you are attacked before you get to them, especially with the introduction of siege workshops) Edited July 3, 2020 by Feldfeld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 @Nescio @wowgetoffyourcellphone @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Aurelian Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 Are not rams getting a big nerf in the next version ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) Is the Thracian Black Cloak not good enough of a counter? I don't know, I rarely play EA these days. In DE spearmen are hack units (not half hack, half pierce as in EA), so do okay against rams. Edited July 3, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 17 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said: Are not rams getting a big nerf in the next version ? Yes but still effective if you dont take down faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 2 hours ago, badosu said: It seems there were sword cav units (Paeonian and Thracian Cavalry), were there enough numbers to justify including them? Their numbers are fine, but calling them sword cavalry is a bit of a stretch. All cavalry had swords (or a sagaris (axe) in the case of Scythian and Iranian horse archers) as side-arms to be used in emergencies, but Paeonians and Odrysians (Thracians) were light cavalry, fighting with javelins and avoiding melee. Functionally the two were the same, but they hailed from different regions (Paeonians from what is now North Macedonia, Odrysians lived in Southern Bulgaria and European Turkey), were often placed on different flanks (cf. Thessalians and Companions), and the Paeonians are known to have shields (the Thracians did not). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 The real problem is not really the Macedonians, but the weakness of spearmen: ( hack + pierce + crush ) / time = damage per second basic cavalry spearman : ( 6 + 5 + 0 ) / 2 = 5.5 basic cavalry swordsman : ( 6.5 + 0 + 0 ) / 0.75 = 8.667 basic cavalry axeman : ( 6.9 + 0 + 2.3 ) / 1 = 9.2 champion cavalry spearman : ( 12 + 10 + 0 ) / 2 = 11 champion cavalry swordsman : ( 13 + 0 + 0 ) / 0.75 = 17.333 champion cavalry axeman : ( 13.8 + 0 + 4.6 ) / 1 = 18.4 hero cavalry spearman : ( 24 + 20 + 0 ) / 2 = 22 hero cavalry swordsman : ( 26 + 0 + 0 ) / 0.75 = 34.667 hero cavalry axeman : ( 27.6 + 0 + 9.2 ) / 1 = 36.8 champion elephant : ( 20 + 0 + 150 ) / 1.5 = 113.333 The approach taken in @wowgetoffyourcellphone's mod Delenda Est is giving all melee units only hack damage (which necessitates bonus attacks to differentiate unit types), the approach taken in my 0abc mod is introducing a fourth damage type (thrust) for spearmen (which allows soft counters via differences in armour levels); both approaches make them effective vs rams (and other units). 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badosu Posted July 3, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 43 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said: Is the Thracian Black Cloak not good enough of a counter? They are for Seleucids on Military Colonies, no such unit for Macedonians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 43 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said: Is the Thracian Black Cloak not good enough of a counter? I don't know, I rarely play EA these days. In DE spearmen are hack units (not half hack, half pierce as in EA), so do okay against rams. Currently those are Athenian stoa champions (which is problematic). Historically they served as an elite vanguard under Philip V or Perseus, the last Macedonian kings. All other Macedonian soldiers are based on Alexander's army, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Nescio said: Currently those are Athenian stoa champions (which is problematic) Yeah, I wish EA would implement some kind of consistent Mercenary system to allow for these outlier units. This would allow EA to give more unit types to all the civs and balance them out some, while retaining a uniqueness to each citizen roster. Whether EA adopts DE's mercenary system or some other system, I think it should be done, perhaps for Alpha 25. Keep the Stoa as some kind of special building, but with a civic or cultural bonus (see DE, or some other bonus) Edited July 3, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said: Is the Thracian Black Cloak not good enough of a counter? 1 hour ago, Nescio said: Currently those are Athenian stoa champions (which is problematic). Historically they served as an elite vanguard under Philip V or Perseus, the last Macedonian kings. All other Macedonian soldiers are based on Alexander's army, though. We've been over this before a few times already. Black Cloaks are indeed a little problematic for the Athenians. They were used by the Macedonians, on record. So they should at least be part of the Macedonian roster. It's a matter of increased historical accuracy, in addition to a better gameplay experience (finally a sword unit to counter rams). It really seems like a straightforward fix to me. Add Thracian Black Cloaks to the Macedonian roster. It's a win-win. How did they even end up in the Athenian roster anyway? Not complaining or anything, but it almost seems like a simple mistake someone made x amount of years ago and it just stuck. Or is it a legacy from when all the Greek factions were still a single faction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Sundiata said: Not complaining or anything, but it almost seems like a simple mistake someone made x amount of years ago and it just stuck. That's true for many (most?) things in the public folder. The limiting factor is getting team members to commit things. There are currently about 60 gameplay patches open (and the backlog is growing). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, Sundiata said: but it almost seems like a simple mistake someone made x amount of years ago and it just stuck AFAIK it's just this here. No real discussion was made when the Royal Stoa, the Persian special building, etc. were added. They were just added to add some other cool stuff to the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soloooy0 Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 Could you put a stoa helena to the Macedonians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfinn the Shallow Minded Posted July 3, 2020 Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 The solution here seems obvious: spearmen/pikemen should be able to disable rams about as well as swordsmen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badosu Posted July 3, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) No, I want my black cloaks now Edited July 3, 2020 by badosu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted July 4, 2020 Report Share Posted July 4, 2020 Can be very nice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted July 4, 2020 Report Share Posted July 4, 2020 Is there a patch for black cloaks? There seem to be q consensus here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted July 4, 2020 Report Share Posted July 4, 2020 16 minutes ago, Stan` said: Is there a patch for black cloaks? There seem to be q consensus here. Nope, we need make one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted July 4, 2020 Report Share Posted July 4, 2020 19 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said: AFAIK it's just this here. No real discussion was made when the Royal Stoa, the Persian special building, etc. were added. They were just added to add some other cool stuff to the game. https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2742 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted July 4, 2020 Report Share Posted July 4, 2020 26 minutes ago, Nescio said: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2742 Can you will help us with this patch? Please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 (edited) On 7/3/2020 at 9:42 PM, Sundiata said: We've been over this before a few times already. Black Cloaks are indeed a little problematic for the Athenians. They were used by the Macedonians, on record. So they should at least be part of the Macedonian roster. It's a matter of increased historical accuracy, in addition to a better gameplay experience (finally a sword unit to counter rams). It really seems like a straightforward fix to me. Add Thracian Black Cloaks to the Macedonian roster. It's a win-win. How did they even end up in the Athenian roster anyway? Not complaining or anything, but it almost seems like a simple mistake someone made x amount of years ago and it just stuck. Or is it a legacy from when all the Greek factions were still a single faction? On 7/4/2020 at 11:53 AM, Stan` said: Is there a patch for black cloaks? There seem to be q consensus here. 17 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said: Can you will help us with this patch? Please. Now there is: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2863 Edited July 5, 2020 by Nescio 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.