Feature: Hero Upgrades

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

17 minutes ago, Stan` said:

What's this about?

An easy way of further differentiating the look of the Greek civs is use the same model of stone walls (no need for modeling new walls) and just exporting new models with new UV mapping for the Macedonians and Athenians to use, while keeping the old ones for the Spartans (and Thebans).

[Ultimate Aurelian]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Here's the current Spartan roster for y'all. Thoughts? 

 

I was wondering if anyone has any ideas to replace them having a "mount." Part of the new hero system is that once City Phase is reached that the heroes are 'Upgradeable' to something even more powerful. 

I'd say mounts are fine for most heroes.

If there is a particular hero who you want to remain on foot or a future civ with no cav; you could have a tech that upgrades his equipment (Giving him a fancier shield, helmet, armor) instead.

I am not sure if Brasidas should have only one greave (I think wearing a single greave was a Itallic custom).

Edited July 3, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Theban Heroes

 

 

[gameboy]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone What is this MOD?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

12 minutes ago, gameboy said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone What is this MOD?

https://github.com/JustusAvramenko/delenda_est

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I think that you might be mistaking Agis III with Agis IV, who was famous for attempting a series of reforms; likewise, as such, wouldn't he be better served being equipped with equipment to match the pikemen in that case?

[Carltonus]

Agis III had no other bonuses besides 1000 extra health. In my original reply, I deliberately put "Agis IV", now realizing how confusing it is to differentiate between the two kings. To begin with re-texturing, the roofs of the Spartan wall towers should match with the other Spartan buildings. Have you decided what to do with the pikemen whenever (which) Agis is unlocked? To repeat/reiterate:

1. The basic and advanced pikemen can be perioikoi, while the elite (or 4th rank like the imperial legionnaire > centurion) can be Spartan; since they have opportunity to promote to full citizenship.
2. Perioikoi and Spartan hoplites can be upgraded to pikemen, but don't think this is recommended when playing single or with bots
3. Both hoplite and pikemen classes, perioikoi and Spartan, can be recruited in syssition/barracks/fortress, whatever.
4. Unchanged, only Spartan pikemen recruited in fortress (or syssition if fortress can serve another function)

Unless the option to dismount from horse is possible/available, here are alternatives to mounts for the Spartans:

• Leonidas - bonus defense vs. Persians
• Brasidas - aura to prevent enemies from capturing nearby worker helots, but helot bowmen is still on the table tough.
• Lysander - bonus against walls and some buildings is still on the table.
• Agis III - discount for mercenaries, damage bonus vs. Macedonians
• Agis IV - if no perioikoi pikemen, 1000 extra health should be visibly labelled in card

Agis III can be a Atlas-only hero, especially for a Macedonian campaign scenario

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Agis IV doesn't seem very compelling of a hero for the Spartans. His main claim to fame seems to be his attempt at reforming the Spartan system and then being murdered for it. He reigned 4 years without ever battling an enemy faction besides other Spartans.

 

Looks like Cleomenes III is one one want:

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cleomenes_III

Edited July 4, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

 

Training him automatically researches the Hellenistic Reforms tech in Empire Phase for free, which unlocks the Spartan Reform Phalangite and Stone Walls. Already implemented.

[Carltonus]

First off, if a player’s chosen hero “dies” in a non-Herocide game: will that player have an opportunity to choose another hero in the pool, or he summons the same hero only for the rest of the game? My suggestions would make sense for the latter.

There’s not much difference between the perioikoi and Spartan pikemen in Total War: Rome II, in my honest opinion, except their shield colors. My point was addressing possible anachronisms, such as reformed Spartan phalangites in classical Greek period.

Maybe the same suggestion mentioned earlier would also apply to the Spartans: choose between a Greco-Persian/Pelopponesian War roster, or a Rise of Macedon/Hellenistic roster.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Carltonus

[Ultimate Aurelian]

Some suggestions for Celtic Heroes.

Gauls could have Ambiorix (Bonuses and appearance could be based on @Genava55's design here:https://www.docdroid.net/9fLYce0/gauls-design-pdf#page=25 ) and Dumnorix.

Another option could be Bolgios (Portraying the invasion of Greece without having two different heroes named Brennus), but i am not sure if he counts as Gallic.

For Britons the main one i can think of is Cassivelanus (Currently used in catafalque); for a possible fifth one Diviciacus (Ruled parts of britain and north gaul) or maybe even Tuathal (Since they have a irish wonder)

Edited July 4, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Genava55]

26 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Another option could be Bolgios (Portraying the invasion of Greece without having two different heroes named Brennus), but i am not sure if he counts as Gallic.

It depends on the definition of "Gauls" and "Gallic". For the ancients, the use of the words Galátēs, Galli, Celtae or Keltoi is inconsistent. In addition, they are using the same word for different cultures, like Keltoi/Celtae. So personally I use Gallic to refers to the La Tène culture in general.

Concerning Bolgios, he is described as a Gaul by the historian Justin.

Edit: another candidate could be Bathanattos, see:

Spoiler

 

6 hours ago, Carltonus said:

First off, if a player’s chosen hero “dies” in a non-Herocide game: will that player have an opportunity to choose another hero in the pool, or he summons the same hero only for the rest of the game? My suggestions would make sense for the latter.

There’s not much difference between the perioikoi and Spartan pikemen in Total War: Rome II, in my honest opinion, except their shield colors. My point was addressing possible anachronisms, such as reformed Spartan phalangites in classical Greek period.

Maybe the same suggestion mentioned earlier would also apply to the Spartans: choose between a Greco-Persian/Pelopponesian War roster, or a Rise of Macedon/Hellenistic roster.

Representing historical evolution of a faction through strategical choices by the player is indeed a great idea. Although I doubt there is that much support for this idea (or this is a silent minority).

Edited July 4, 2020 by Genava55

[Ultimate Aurelian]

21 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

It depends on the definition of "Gauls" and "Gallic". For the ancients, the use of the words Galátēs, Galli, Celtae or Keltoi is inconsistent. In addition, they are using the same word for different cultures, like Keltoi/Celtae. So personally I use Gallic to refers to the La Tène culture in general.

In game i think Gauls is used to refer to La Téne culture in the area the Romans called Gaul (Not necessarily the best definition)

My understandings is that La Téne culture spread eastwards from Gaul, but it is not clear if the invasion of Greece came straight from Gaul or if it came from Celtic tribes already living in Pannonia.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Genava55]

1 minute ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

In game i think Gauls is used to refer to La Téne culture in the area the Romans called Gaul.

Probably not actually.

Gaul specifically designate Gallia Transalpina. The game is portraying Brennus and Britomaros which are major protagonists in Gallia Cisalpina.

So clearly, the Gauls of the game are not constrained to the people in the area of what the Romans called Gaul. This seems related to the ethnical label in use by the Romans, which is much more logical.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Representing historical evolution of a faction through strategical choices by the player is indeed a great idea. Although I doubt there is that much support for this idea (or this is a silent minority).

It's not that I wouldn't want to implement this kind of representation, it's just a lot of work including a significant amount of trial and error and design work. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Improved the look of Gorgidas. The corinthian helmet was pretty anachronistic.

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Thoughts on Mauryan heroes???

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone
Better shot

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I wonder if Porus would be an appropriate addition despite his being a king before the formation of the Maurya Empire.  He would make a fun historic rival to Alexander.

[Carltonus]

The last six Maurya emperors didn't have much foreign (Greek) contact if I recall correctly, so Bindusara can be a potential third. It is fine to put Porus as a fourth if you can't think of a Atlas-/scenario-only option. Also looks like a sub-hero system may be going in place.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone: have you thought of an answer to my previous question? To repeat: if your chosen hero dies, will you have the opportunity to choose another hero from the list, or the only same hero (and sub-heroes) is played for the rest of the game? If no, the discussion regarding Spartan pikemen (and some other hero-required units and upgrades) could continue.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 hours ago, Carltonus said:

The last six Maurya emperors didn't have much foreign (Greek) contact if I recall correctly, so Bindusara can be a potential third. It is fine to put Porus as a fourth if you can't think of a Atlas-/scenario-only option. Also looks like a sub-hero system may be going in place.

Bindusara is a good option. Chanakya is a secondary hero, trainable from the palace or temple when you choose Chandragupta. 

Porus would be a great Atlas hero for scenarios or skirmish maps if someone @Alexandermb @wackyserious wanted to help me make him.

 

9 hours ago, Carltonus said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone: have you thought of an answer to my previous question? To repeat: if your chosen hero dies, will you have the opportunity to choose another hero from the list, or the only same hero (and sub-heroes) is played for the rest of the game? If no, the discussion regarding Spartan pikemen (and some other hero-required units and upgrades) could continue.

I wouldn't mind having swapping unit rosters (Classical/Hellenistic) based on if you train Cleomenes or not, but I don't want to do it until there's a way to make items disappear out of the gui. For example, I don't want the barracks and blacksmith and fortress to have a bunch of grayed out Hellenistic stuff if you chose Leonidas. For now I created a happy medium. If we get that ability to remove items from the production queue ui, then I'm all for your idea. Consider it on the back burner until the UI code is extended. 

[Carltonus]

16 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I wouldn't mind having swapping unit rosters (Classical/Hellenistic) based on if you train Cleomenes or not, but I don't want to do it until there's a way to make items disappear out of the gui. For example, I don't want the barracks and blacksmith and fortress to have a bunch of grayed out Hellenistic stuff if you chose Leonidas. For now I created a happy medium. If we get that ability to remove items from the production queue ui, then I'm all for your idea. Consider it on the back burner until the UI code is extended. 

@borg-'s mod (if I recall correctly again) summons heroes only once, and cannot be re-trained when they "die". Selected hero disappears from choice with each summoning. Is the coding required similar to that?

The Maurya catafalque must be renamed if Bindusara is to be added to the Maurya hero roster. Probably an Buddhist relic instead of an important person? Same goes with some of the other catafalques in other factions.

For the Roman Republic, Gaius Claudius Nero could be a potential fourth; but if you don't want too much focus on the Punic Wars, would suggest Scipio Asiaticus.

[av93]

On 7/11/2020 at 6:15 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Thoughts on Mauryan heroes???

 

This is photoshop, or it's already implemented and working?

[Stan`]

It's in DE

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 hours ago, av93 said:

This is photoshop, or it's already implemented and working?

It's 100% working in the DE github version, but only for the Greek and Indian civs so far.

It's not working 100% as I'd like yet. The other heroes get grayed out instead of removed from the production queue. Also, I wish the big cards you see there were generated by the UI code instead if being big pngs I have to make in Photoshop. But for now, it all works satisfying enough.

Edited July 14, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wackyserious]

Took inspiration on your concept