War Elephants

[Genava55]

57 minutes ago, Nescio said:

If Justin is correct, then the elephants Pyrrhus had came from the Indian elephants Seleucus obtained from Chandragupta. This is more plausible than the alternative (Alexander's aging elephants shipped from Egypt).

I agree:

Romans first encountered elephants in battle in 280 BCE, when Pyrrhus, king of the Greek region of Epirus, invaded Italy with an army of 25,000 men and 20 war elephants. The Romans recorded the appearance of the animals on some of the heavy bronze ingots they used as currency at the time. Pyrrhus established his base at the Greek city of Taras, which placed a small image of an elephant below a dolphin rider on its silver coinage.

https://coinweek.com/ancient-coins/elephants-ancient-coins/

[Lion.Kanzen]

look Indian but which specimen are they?

[Ultimate Aurelian]

55 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

I agree:

Romans first encountered elephants in battle in 280 BCE, when Pyrrhus, king of the Greek region of Epirus, invaded Italy with an army of 25,000 men and 20 war elephants. The Romans recorded the appearance of the animals on some of the heavy bronze ingots they used as currency at the time. Pyrrhus established his base at the Greek city of Taras, which placed a small image of an elephant below a dolphin rider on its silver coinage.

https://coinweek.com/ancient-coins/elephants-ancient-coins/

I think Veddic text mention war elephants but i am not sure there is anything about towers.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

It's not impossible they had turrets. It's unclear when elephant turrets were exactly introduced, but it must have been at some point between 323 (death of Alexander) and 217 (Battle of Raphia).

Veddic texts mention war elephants, i am not sure if they say anything about towers tho.

It's possilbe that Curtius mentions Howdahs being used before that timeframe you mentioned

Quote

A passage from Roman historian Curtius describing the lifestyles of ancient Indian kings during the "Second urbanisation" (c. 600 – c. 200 BCE) rode on chariot mounted on elephants or howdahs when going on a distant expedition.^[2]

Source on that statement is a Indian book from the 60s:

• Majumdar, R. C. (1960). The. Classical. Accounts.of. India. Calcutta: Firma K.L. Mukhopadhvay. p. 105.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Genava55]

There are reliefs representing war elephants in ancient India, but I don't think there is any turret:

https://www.ancient.eu/image/8567/magadhan-and-mauryan-arms-and-armour/

[Genava55]

Megasthenes fragment XXXV (probably his Indica) indicating the use of turret.

https://books.google.ch/books?id=i-y6ZUheQH8C&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=mauryan+tower+elephant&source=bl&ots=t8X0TwP8hD&sig=ACfU3U0_r3EGDXrViyJ30t5D_vUv0LpSDQ&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwir7NnjnuXpAhWew8QBHaKNDlYQ6AEwC3oECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=mauryan tower elephant&f=false

 

https://books.google.fr/books?hl=fr&lr=&id=FDCgPDe9OgAC

Edited June 3, 2020 by Genava55

[Nescio]

8 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

I think Veddic text mention war elephants but i am not sure there is anything about towers.

Source, please? Do the Vedas explicitly mention elephants being used on the battlefield, or just elephants (e.g. as animals living in the forests, mounts for the gods, beasts of burden, or assisting people with heavy work)? Elephant warfare undoubtedly originated on Sri Lanka or in India long before Darius III and Alexander III, however, elephant armour, turrets, and howdahs did not exist since the beginning of time.

7 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

It's possilbe that Curtius mentions Howdahs being used before that timeframe you mentioned

Please provide a clear reference.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

5 hours ago, Nescio said:

Please provide a clear reference.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015008158407&view=1up&seq=321

Quote

He rides in a chariot drawn by elephants and the entire bodies of such huge brutes are covered with gold

It is a elephant drawn chariot, the article calling it a tower was misinterpreting.

Another passage on Porus elephants:

Quote

The Macedonians were checked for a time, by the sight not only of the elephants but of the king himself.  The beasts, stationed   between lines of armed men, at a distance looked like towers , while Porus himself had almost exceeded the measure of human stature "; the beast on which he rode seemed to add to his height, since it rose as much higher than the others.

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Nescio]

4 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015008158407&view=1up&seq=321

Thanks. “Quintus Curtius Rufus 8.9.29” would have been enough, but providing a link to text and translation is indeed helpful.

Now I wonder what Arrian writes on Porus and elephants.

[EDIT] Diodorus Siculus on Porus and the Battle of the Hydaspes (17.87–89):

Spoiler

[87.1] ἐπ᾽ ἄρχοντος δ᾽ Ἀθήνησι Χρέμητος Ῥωμαῖοι κατέστησαν ὑπάτους Πόπλιον Κορνήλιον καὶ Αὖλον Ποστούμιον. ἐπὶ δὲ τούτων Ἀλέξανδρος ἐν τῇ Ταξίλου χώρᾳ προσαναλαβὼν τὴν δύναμιν ἐστράτευσεν ἐπὶ Πῶρον τὸν τῶν πλησιοχώρων Ἰνδῶν βασιλέα. [2] οὗτος δ᾽ εἶχε πεζοὺς μὲν πλείους τῶν πεντακισμυρίων, ἱππεῖς δὲ περὶ τρισχιλίους, ἅρματα δὲ πλείω τῶν χιλίων, ἐλέφαντας δὲ ἑκατὸν καὶ τριάκοντα. ἐπεποίητο δὲ καὶ ἕτερον τῶν πλησιοχώρων βασιλέα σύμμαχον, ὃς ὠνομάζετο Ἐμβίσαρος, εἶχε δὲ δύναμιν οὐ πολὺ λειπομένην τῆς τοῦ Πώρου. [3] ὁ δὲ Ἀλέξανδρος ἀκούσας τοῦτον τὸν βασιλέα τετρακοσίους ἀπέχειν σταδίους ἔκρινε πρὸ τῆς τούτου παρουσίας ἐπιβαλεῖν τῷ Πώρῳ. [4] ἐγγίσαντος δὲ αὐτοῦ τοῖς Ἰνδοῖς ὁ Πῶρος πυθόμενος πλησίον εἶναι τοὺς πολεμίους εὐθὺς ἐξέταξε τὴν δύναμιν καὶ τοὺς μὲν ἱππεῖς ἐπὶ τὰ κέρατα διεμέρισεν, τοὺς δ᾽ ἐλέφαντας καταπληκτικῶς κεκοσμημένους κατὰ μέτωπον ἐν ἴσοις διαστήμασιν ἔστησεν· ἀνὰ μέσον δὲ τῶν θηρίων τοὺς λοιποὺς ὁπλίτας ἔταξεν, οἷς συντεταγμένον ἦν παραβοηθεῖν τοῖς θηρίοις καὶ διακωλύειν ἐκ τῶν πλαγίων εἰσακοντίζειν. [5] ἡ μὲν οὖν ὅλη σύνταξις αὐτῶν ὑπῆρχε πόλει παραπλήσιος τὴν πρόσοψιν· ἡ μὲν γὰρ τῶν ἐλεφάντων στάσις τοῖς πύργοις, οἱ δὲ ἀνὰ μέσον τούτων στρατιῶται τοῖς μεσοπυργίοις ὡμοίωντο· ὁ δὲ Ἀλέξανδρος κατανοήσας τὴν τῶν πολεμίων τάξιν πρὸς ταύτην τὴν διακόσμησιν οἰκείως ἐξέταξε τὴν δύναμιν.

[87.1] In the archonship of Chremes at Athens, the Romans elected as consuls Publius Cornelius and Aulus Postumius. In this year Alexander repaired his army in the land of Taxiles and then marched against Porus, the king of the neighbouring Indians. [2] He had more than fifty thousand infantry, about three thousand cavalry, more than a thousand chariots of war, and one hundred and thirty elephants. He had enlisted the support of a second king of the neighbouring regions, whose name was Embisarus; he had an army little smaller than that of Porus. [3] When Alexander received word that this king was four hundred furlongs away, he decided to attack Porus before the arrival of his ally. [4] As he approached the Indians, Porus learned of his advance and deployed his forces promptly. He stationed his cavalry upon both flanks, and arranged his elephants, arrayed so as to strike terror in an opponent, in a single line at equal intervals along his front. Between these beasts he placed the rest of his infantry, with the mission of helping them and preventing their being attacked with javelins from the sides. [5] His whole array looked very much like a city, for the elephants resembled towers, and the soldiers between them curtain walls. Alexander viewed the enemy's dispositions and arranged his own troops appropriately.

[88.1] γενομένης δὲ μάχης τὸ μὲν πρῶτον τοῖς ἱππεῦσιν ἅπαντα σχεδὸν τὰ ἅρματα τῶν Ἰνδῶν διεφθάρη· μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα τῶν ἐλεφάντων ταῖς τε τῶν σωμάτων ὑπεροχαῖς καὶ ταῖς ἀλκαῖς δεόντως χρωμένων οἱ μὲν ὑπὸ τῶν θηρίων συμπατούμενοι μετὰ τῶν ὅπλων θραυομένων τῶν ὀστῶν ἀπώλλυντο, οἱ δὲ ταῖς προνομαῖς περιλαμβανόμενοι καὶ πρὸς ὕψος ἐξαρθέντες πάλιν πρὸς τὴν γῆν ἐράττοντο καὶ δεινοῖς θανάτοις περιέπιπτον, πολλοὶ δὲ τοῖς ὀδοῦσι συγκεντούμενοι καὶ δι᾽ ὅλων τῶν σωμάτων τιτρωσκόμενοι παραχρῆμα τοῦ ζῆν ἐστερίσκοντο. [2] τῶν δὲ Μακεδόνων εὐρώστως ὑπομενόντων τὸ δεινὸν καὶ τοὺς ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν θηρίων ταῖς σαρίσαις ἀναιρούντων ἰσόρροπος ἦν ἡ μάχη. [3] μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα τῶν θηρίων συνακοντιζομένων καὶ διὰ τὸ πλῆθος τῶν τραυμάτων περιοδύνων γινομένων οἱ μὲν περιβεβηκότες αὐτοῖς Ἰνδοὶ κρατεῖν τῆς ὁρμῆς τῶν ζῴων οὐκ ἴσχυον· ἐκνεύοντα γὰρ εἰς τοὺς ἰδίους ταῖς ὁρμαῖς ἀκατασχέτως ἐφέρετο καὶ τοὺς φίλους συνεπάτει· [4] ταραχῆς δὲ πολλῆς γινομένης ὁ Πῶρος συνιδὼν τὸ γινόμενον καὶ τεταγμένος ἐπὶ τοῦ κρατίστου τῶν ἐλεφάντων ἤθροισε περὶ αὑτὸν τεσσαράκοντα τῶν θηρίων τὰ μήπω τεταραγμένα καὶ τῶν βάρει τῶν ἐλεφάντων ἐπιβαλὼν τοῖς πολεμίοις πολὺν ἐποίει φόνον, ἅτε καὶ τῇ ῥώμῃ τοῦ σώματος πολὺ προέχων τῶν συστρατευομένων· τὸ γὰρ μῆκος ἦν πηχῶν πέντε, τὸ δ᾽ εὖρος ὑπῆρχεν ὁ θώραξ αὐτοῦ διπλάσιος τῶν ἄλλων τῶν εὐρωστίᾳ διαφερόντων. [5] διόπερ τὰ βαλλόμενα σαυνία τοιαύτην εἶχε δύναμιν ὥστε μὴ πολὺ λείπεσθαι τῶν καταπελτικῶν βελῶν. τῶν δ᾽ ἀντιτεταγμένων Μακεδόνων καταπεπληγμένων τὴν ἀνδραγαθίαν τοῦ Πώρου ὁ Ἀλέξανδρος μεταπεμψάμενος τοὺς τοξότας καὶ τὰ ψιλικὰ τῶν ταγμάτων προσέταξεν ἅπαντας βάλλειν ἐπὶ τὸν Πῶρον. [6] ταχὺ δὲ τῶν στρατιωτῶν πραξάντων τὸ παραγγελθὲν καὶ βελῶν ἅμα πολλῶν ἐνεχθέντων ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰνδὸν καὶ πάντων ἐπιτυγχανόντων διὰ τὸ μέγεθος τοῦ σκοποῦ ὁ μὲν Πῶρος ἡρωικῶς ἀγωνισάμενος καὶ διὰ τὸ πλῆθος τῶν τραυμάτων γενόμενος ἔξαιμος ἐλιποψύχησεν καὶ περικλασθεὶς περὶ τὸ θηρίον πρὸς τὴν γῆν κατηνέχθη. [7] διαδοθείσης δὲ φήμης ὅτι τετελεύτηκεν ὁ βασιλεύς, τὸ λοιπὸν πλῆθος τῶν Ἰνδῶν πρὸς φυγὴν ὥρμησεν.

[88.1] The fighting began, and practically all of the Indians' chariots were put out of action by Alexander's cavalry. Then the elephants came into play, trained to make good use of their height and strength. Some of the Macedonians were trodden under foot, armour and all, by the beasts and died, their bones crushed. Others were caught up by the elephants' trunks and, lifted on high, were dashed back down to the ground again, dying a fearful death. Many soldiers were pierced through by the tusks and died instantly, run through the whole body. [2] Nevertheless the Macedonians faced the frightening experience manfully. They used their long spears to good effect against the Indians stationed beside the elephants, and kept the battle even. [3] Then, as javelins began to find their marks in the sides of the great beasts and they felt the pain of the wounds, the Indian riders were no longer able to control their movements. The elephants veered and, no longer manageable, turned upon their own ranks and trampled friendly troops. [4] As his formations grew more confused, Porus observed what was happening. He was mounted on the largest of the elephants and gathered about him forty others which were not yet out of hand, then attacked the enemy with their combined weight and inflicted many losses. He was himself outstanding in bodily strength beyond any of his followers, being five cubits in height and with a breadth of chest double that of his mightiest soldiers. [5] His javelins were flung with such force that they were little inferior to the darts of the catapults. The Macedonians who opposed him were amazed at his fighting ability, but Alexander called up the bowmen and other light armed troops and ordered them to concentrate their fire upon Porus. [6] This was done promptly. Many weapons flew toward the Indian at the same time and none missed its mark because of his great size. He continued to fight heroically until, fainting from loss of blood from his many wounds, he collapsed upon his elephant and fell to the ground. [7] The word went about that the king was killed, and the rest of the Indians fled.

[89.1] ἐν δὲ τῇ φυγῇ πολλοῦ φόνου γενομένου ὁ μὲν Ἀλέξανδρος ἐπιφανεῖ μάχῃ νικήσας ἀνεκαλέσατο τῇ σάλπιγγι τοὺς στρατιώτας. ἔπεσον δὲ ἐν τῇ μάχῃ τῶν Ἰνδῶν πλείους τῶν μυρίων καὶ δισχιλίων, ἐν οἷς ὑπῆρχον καὶ δύο υἱοὶ τοῦ Πώρου καὶ οἱ στρατηγοὶ καὶ οἱ ἐπιφανέστατοι τῶν ἡγεμόνων. [2] ζῶντες δὲ ἄνδρες ἑάλωσαν ὑπὲρ τοὺς ἐνακισχιλίους, ἐλέφαντες δὲ ὀγδοήκοντα. αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ Πῶρος ἔμπνους ὢν παρεδόθη τοῖς Ἰνδοῖς πρὸς τὴν θεραπείαν. [3] τῶν δὲ Μακεδόνων ἔπεσον μὲν ἱππεῖς διακόσιοι καὶ ὀγδοήκοντα, πεζοὶ δὲ πλείους τῶν ἑπτακοσίων. ὁ δὲ βασιλεὺς τοὺς μὲν τετελευτηκότας ἔθαψε, τοὺς δὲ ἀνδραγαθήσαντας κατὰ τὴν ἀξίαν ἐτίμησεν, αὐτὸς δὲ Ἡλίῳ ἔθυσεν ὡς δεδωκότι τὰ πρὸς ἀνατολὴν μέρη καταστρέψασθαι. [4] τῆς δὲ πλησίον ὀρεινῆς ἐχούσης πολλὴν μὲν ἐλάτην εὔτροφον, οὐκ ὀλίγην δὲ κέδρον καὶ πεύκην, ἔτι δὲ τῆς ἄλλης ὕλης ναυπηγησίμου πλῆθος ἄφθονον κατεσκεύασε ναῦς ἱκανάς· [5] διενοεῖτο γὰρ ἐπὶ τὸ τέρμα τῆς Ἰνδικῆς παραγενόμενος καὶ πάντας τοὺς ἐγχωρίους καταστρεψάμενος διὰ τοῦ ποταμοῦ καταπλεῖν εἰς τὸν Ὠκεανόν. [6] ἔκτισε δὲ δύο πόλεις, τὴν μὲν πέραν τοῦ ποταμοῦ καθ᾽ ὃν τόπον αὐτὸς διέβη, τὴν δὲ ἄλλην ἐν ᾧ τόπῳ τὸν Πῶρον ἐνίκησεν. ταχὺ δὲ τῶν ἔργων κατασκευασθέντων διὰ τὴν πολυχειρίαν τὸν μὲν Πῶρον θεραπευθέντα βασιλέα κατέστησε διὰ τὴν ἀρετὴν ἧς πρότερον ἦρχε χώρας, τὴν δὲ δύναμιν ἐπὶ τριάκοντα ἡμέρας ἀνέλαβε, πολλῆς ἀφθονίας οὔσης τῶν ἐπιτηδείων.

[89.1] Many were slain in their flight, but then Alexander, satisfied with his brilliant victory, ordered the trumpets to sound the recall. Of the Indians, there fell in the battle more than twelve thousand, among whom were the two sons of Porus and his best generals and officers. [2] Above nine thousand men were taken alive, together with eighty elephants. Porus himself was still breathing, and was turned over to the Indians for medical attention. [3] On the Macedonian side, the losses were two hundred and eighty cavalry and more than seven hundred infantry. The king buried the dead, rewarded those who had distinguished themselves in accordance with their deserts, and sacrificed to Helius who had given him the eastern regions to conquer. [4] There were mountains not far away where grew thriving firs in quantity, together with no little cedar and pine and an ample supply of other woods suitable for shipbuilding, and Alexander constructed a large number of ships. [5] He intended to reach the borders of India and to subdue all of its inhabitants, and then to sail downstream to the Ocean. [6] He founded two cities, one beyond the river where he had crossed and the other on the spot where he had defeated Porus. These were built quickly because there was a plentiful supply of labour. When Porus had recovered, Alexander appointed him, in recognition of his valour, king over the country where he formerly ruled. The Macedonian army rested for thirty days in the midst of a vast plenty of provisions.

Text and translation taken from Perseus.

(No elephant armour, turrets, or howdahs are mentioned.)

The corresponding, but much longer, account in Quintus Curtius Rufus is 8.14 (which starts on page 344 = 354/654 of the book you linked).

Edited June 3, 2020 by Nescio
Diod.

[Nescio]

Open elephant-related patches:

• D2496
• D2595
• D2852
• D2853
• D2861

[Sundiata]

Ooooh, on the question of Indian turrets, I found something interesting...

There is a panel from Gandhara (Charg Pate, Indian subcontinent), depicting a war elephant with turret. These kind of panels are variously dated between the 1st century BC and the 3rd century AD. I can't tell the exact date for the panel presented here, but its content is quite relevant for us. It depicts Ashoka!

 

We can't say how far back this tradition of depicting turreted war elephants in association with Ashoka goes. Maybe it was an anachronistic one time thing, produced centuries after Ashoka, or maybe it was once a more common type of depiction with a historical tradition. Who knows? What we do know is that within a few centuries of Ashoka, we have art from the same region depicting Ashoka in association with a towered war elephant.

Same panel, different picture:

 

 

On the question of elephant stables, the following Gandhara panel is possibly of interest:

The elephant standing in the door opening on the left might be a purely symbolical depiction, or might actually represent, or be based on a credible scene of an elephant exiting its "stables". Again, who knows? But still interesting. 

[Sundiata]

Maybe this is also interesting?

 

And because I shared some post-Maurya Gandhara references in the previous post, I'll share a Gandhara model building showing a roof with a noticeable degree of continuity with the typical Maurya style roofs we also feature in-game:

Reliquary in the shape of a cruciform miniature building, Gandhara Art, Shaikhan Dhri, 2nd-3rd Century AD:

 

While at the same time, Hellenistic influences are sometimes quite overt even as late as the 3rd century AD (and well beyond)

Gandhara Art, Pakistan, 3rd century. The Great Departure (Prince Siddharta, later Buddha, with his horse Kanthaka):

[MrLux]

Hi there,

I'm new to the game but really interested in the art development of it.

After going through the task it seems elephants are a priority. I would like to contribute, and I'm taking reference from that task on the sample roadmap subject:

Quote

1. Elephants -- Big priority. Need rigged and a whole set of animations, including Idle, Attack, Walk, and Death. Must have these prop points: driver, rider (on the back, for riders and towers), chest, head, and tusk (for tusk variations).

But they don't appear on the Gaia List of task and neither on the Art dev, task tracker. Just to make sure how I can contribute ^^ 

 

[Stan`]

Hey @MrLux Nice to see another contributor. Before we look for something you can do can you tell me a little bit more about your skills and interests? I fear changing elephants might be an issue because some of the files are only on @Alexandermb's computer and he has no internet currently

[MrLux]

hey @Stan` , I. m a 3d generalist that works in freelance doing archiviz mostly. But I really like animation and enjoy the opportunity to make models and texture them. So for now I saw that people wanted bisons, and as a presentation I'll get that done to show what I can do. 

[Stan`]

1 minute ago, MrLux said:

hey @Stan` , I. m a 3d generalist that works in freelance doing archiviz mostly. But I really like animation and enjoy the opportunity to make models and texture them. So for now I saw that people wanted bisons, and as a presentation I'll get that done to show what I can do. 

Great! Keep in mind that it's Bison bonasus and not Bison Bison, due to the very European nature of this game   Looking forward to what you can do

[Nescio]

14 minutes ago, MrLux said:

hey @Stan` , I. m a 3d generalist that works in freelance doing archiviz mostly. But I really like animation and enjoy the opportunity to make models and texture them. So for now I saw that people wanted bisons, and as a presentation I'll get that done to show what I can do. 

Sounds great! 0 A.D. has very limited biodiversity, so more animals are always most welcome! There are lists with animals we'd like to have at https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/23840-gaia-animals/
and https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/22944-fauna-requests/ but other animals can be accepted too.

However, you have to be willing to release your contributions under the CC-BY-SA-3.0 license.

[Phalanx]

On the subject of war elephants, will there ever be a "spooking" mechanic in game, specifically for herdables and cavalry faced with elephants.  Possibly a lessening "spookablility" with higher level?

[MrLux]

No problem for the licence. Happy to spread the freedoooom x-)

@Stan` It took a look at the present elephant files. There are a lot of variations and the three subspecies plus the armor and the rest. I'm excited to tackle a ground-up redo if it's needed. However I'll train with other animals before to have a good workflow and understand how to correctly import the models and animations to the engine. Then if still needed I'm willing to do the elephants.

[GunChleoc]

You'll need to make the license official in

 

[Stan`]

5 hours ago, MrLux said:

@Stan` It took a look at the present elephant files. There are a lot of variations and the three subspecies plus the armor and the rest. I'm excited to tackle a ground-up redo if it's needed. However I'll train with other animals before to have a good workflow and understand how to correctly import the models and animations to the engine. Then if still needed I'm willing to do the elephants.

Sounds good to me, hopefully by the time you're done @Alexandermb will finally after the past months have internet at all again. Then we'll see about the elephants. There are so many animals to be done though that time should not be the issue

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 minutes ago, Stan` said:

Sounds good to me, hopefully by the time you're done @Alexandermb will finally after the past months have internet at all again. Then we'll see about the elephants. There are so many animals to be done though that time should not be the issue

I just think the elephants need maybe scaled up by 10% and some minor geometry editing. They are the biggest animals in the game, so it's worth making them look the best we can.

I'd like to see more war elephant variations, personally. 

[Stan`]

10 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I just think the elephants need maybe scaled up by 10% and some minor geometry editing. They are the biggest animals in the game, so it's worth making them look the best we can.

I'd like to see more war elephant variations, personally. 

Sure. I'm not opposed to more elephants Just wanted to seize the opportunity for more animal variations for our future biomes

EDIT: @feneur can you lift @MrLux 's post limit ?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 minutes ago, Stan` said:

Sure. I'm not opposed to more elephants Just wanted to seize the opportunity for more animal variations for our future biomes

EDIT: @feneur can you lift @MrLux 's post limit ?

Right. We could use more animals in general. Gharials for Indian maps would be nice! Could just edit the existing crocodile mesh. Maybe even use the same animations.

[Nescio]

@Sundiata, some more articles on African war elephants, first a few old ones:

• W. Gowers (1947) “The African Elephant in Warfare” https://www.jstor.org/stable/718841
• W. Gowers (1948) “African Elephants and Ancient Authors” https://www.jstor.org/stable/718306
• H. H. Scullard (1948) “Hannibal's Elephants” https://www.jstor.org/stable/42663097
• W. Gowers & H. H. Scullard (1950) “Hannibal's Elephants Again” https://www.jstor.org/stable/42661466

Then several published more recently, a few already of which were already mentioned earlier in this thread:

• L. Casson (1993) “Ptolemy II and the Hunting of African Elephants”  https://www.jstor.org/stable/284331
• J. F. Shean (1996) “Hannibal's Mules: The Logistical Limitations of Hannibal's Army and the Battle of Cannae, 216 B.C.” https://www.jstor.org/stable/4436417
• M. B. Charles (2007) “Elephants at Raphia: Reinterpreting Polybius 5.84–85” https://www.jstor.org/stable/4493501
• M. B. Charles & P. Rhodan (2007) “Magister Elephantorvm: A Reappraisal of Hannibal's Use of Elephants” https://www.jstor.org/stable/25434049
• M. B. Charles (2008) “African Forest Elephants and Turrets in the Ancient World” https://www.jstor.org/stable/25651736
• Ph. Rance (2009) “Hannibal, Elephants and Turrets in Suda Θ 438 [Polybius Fr. 162⁻] — an Unidentified Fragment of Diodorus” https://www.jstor.org/stable/20616664
• M. B. Charles (2014) “Carthage and the Indian Elephant” https://www.jstor.org/stable/90004712
• M. B. Charles (2016) “Elephant Size in Antiquity: DNA Evidence and the Battle of Raphia” http://www.steiner-verlag.de/fileadmin/Dateien/Steiner/Zeitschriften_Historia/Historia_2016_1_53-65_Charles.pdf
• B. F. van Oppen de Ruiter (2019) “Monsters of Military Might: Elephants in Hellenistic History and Art” https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/4/160/htm

There are more, of course. Personally I'd highly recommend Casson (1993), if you've not read it already. For those of you without access to an university library, the last two are freely accessable, the rest is available at JSTOR, which allows some limited access, but you can also get them via https://sci-hub.tw/, of course.