Special units and so on

[wackyserious]

10 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

why you want make the mercenary camp buildable? I prefer as a map neutral entity.

That would mean that you will have to plop the camps across all the maps in the game like in DE

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

That would mean that you will have to plop the camps across all the maps in the game like in DE

Because was primary idea.

 

 

[fatherbushido]

(from the other topic)

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I don't think the Stoa units should be champions to be honest. They should just be merc citizen-soldiers. I actually wish they were removed and the stoa used for something else other than just a barracks.

I kinda agree things should be make clear for those 2-3 stoas units.

That's perhaps not a good a ref but I really like the book of Duncan Head "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars 359 BC to 146 BC". It appears to me like a design doc for rts in ancient times.

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 7/27/2019 at 3:41 AM, wackyserious said:

Carthage did had the necessities to fund mercenary armies, because they had a really good economy. That was the purpose of mercenaries right? So you do not have to force and drill the locals to muster a force, with the right amount of coin, an army could be yours in a snap. In most desperate times, you could drain your

Not at all,  

On some maps there are not only mercenaries from other nations, or should be, but also natives loyal to the foreign occupying forces,

Just as you should see bandits and nationalists eager to challenge these.

[azayrahmad]

I'd like to share my opinion on mercenaries.

I agree with @Lion.Kanzen that Mercenary Camps shouldn't be buildable. It should be neutral and capturable.

However for Allied/Auxiliary units it should be a separate building. I think every faction should have its own Embassy building that trains foreign non-mercenary units. Similar to Carthage's Embassy but only one instead of three kinds. But it should still work like mercenary camps, i.e. when captured it should be able to train native troops instead of faction troops like Barracks.

[fatherbushido]

On 3/19/2019 at 3:17 PM, fatherbushido said:

- Are those 3 units black_cloak, thureophoros, thorakites really consistent?
 

 

[Carltonus]

If I recall correctly, the next alpha will have the Thracian Black Cloak exclusive to the Macedonians, and the Royal Stoa deprecated. Since the Athenian and Spartan factions are still based on the classical era, here are my suggestions regarding replacements for the Stoa mercenaries:

The Athenian champion skirmishers could be like in the images below:

The helmets could be replaced with the ones on the former, and the thureos shield could be replaced with a rounder pelte on the latter. The Athenian version of the Black Cloaks can be replaced with generic mercenary Thracian swordsmen like the Seleucids.

For the Spartans, the champion skirmishers can also be Skiritai (Ekdromos?) with a small round shield; like this image below (but lose the anachronistic Hellenistic gear):

If there are no alternatives, the mercenary swordsman can also be generic Thracian. Until secondary weapons can be a thing, I don't think there is an alternative for the Thorakites except if you want to add a separate Spartiate Hoplite swordsman. How about Spartan Youths (in Total War: Rome II)? If implemented, it can be a champion hoplite with the statistics of a Naked Fanatic.

There should be a way to toggle between Classical and Hellenistic/Reformed as sub-factions of some sort.

[av93]

In reality, Skiritai have spears, and fought as runners (ekodromos) but also could do a phalanx

[Genava55]

A generic peltophoroi could work as well for a better skirmisher unit.

Or the original peltastes could be replaced by psilos or euzonos or akontistes, and the pelstates added as a better skirmisher.

For the sword issue, anyway the system is broken and hardly justified so let's make a sword hoplite unit with the minimum effort and let's see if the system will prevail in the future.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

In DE I made the skiritai into fast hoplites instead of swordsmen. In that way they're a lot like the Eagle Warriors from AOK.

[Carltonus]

OK, here's the proposed breakdown for the next alpha:

Athenians

Since we already have a champion swordsman (Athenian Marine) from the port, the swordsman can either be a mercenary Thracian, citizen hoplite, or champion hoplite.

Barracks

• Athenian Hoplite - citizen hoplite
• + Athenian Hoplite? - citizen swordsman, either by switching or separate recruitment
• Psiloi - citizen slinger
• Thracian Peltast - Thracian mercenary javelineer
• + Rhomphaiaphoros - Thracian mercenary swordsman (not champion as the deprecating Stoa, but like the Seleucid counterpart, replaces Black Cloak)

Gymnasium

• Epilektos - champion hoplite
• + Epilektos? - champion swordsman, either by switching or separate recruitment (replaces Thorakites)
• + Iphicratean Akontistes/Light Peltast - champion javelineer (replaces already-existing Theurophoros)
• Scythian Archer - champion archer

Spartans

Barracks

• Perioikoi Hoplite - citizen hoplite
• + Perioikoi Hoplite? - citizen swordsman (replaces already exisitng Rhomphaiaphoros)
• Helot Skirmisher - "citizen" javelineer (akontistes)
• (Helot Slinger and/or Archer - "citizen" slinger/archer, optional, but some modifications have slingers)
• Skiritai Commando - elite citizen swordsman
• + Skiritai Peltast - elite citizen javelineer (replaces already-exisiting Theurophoros)

Syssition

• Spartiatis - champion hoplite
• + Spartiatis? - champion swordsman (replaces already-existing Thorakites)

If the new proposed swordsmen be hoplites, they should also assume the phalanx position as if they wielded spears. The other option is that the hoplites (citizen, epilektos, Spartan) can change from dory to xiphos so they can be swordsmen, and switch back to dory if needed. Make the switching for citizen hoplites require Town Phase or a Town Phase upgrade from the Barracks if you want.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

My take on that:

2 hours ago, Carltonus said:

 

Barracks

 

• Athenian Hoplite - citizen hoplite
• Psiloi - citizen slinger
• Thracian Peltast - Thracian mercenary javelineer
• + Iberian Mercenary swordsman

Gymnasium

• Epilektos - champion hoplite
• + Iphicratean Akontistes/Light Peltast - champion javelineer (replaces already-existing Theurophoros)
• Scythian Archer - champion archer

Spartans

Barracks

• Perioikoi Hoplite - citizen hoplite
• Helot Skirmisher - "citizen" javelineer (akontistes)
• +(Helot Slinger ?)
• Skiritai Commando - elite citizen swordsman or fast hoplite
• + Skiritai Peltast - elite citizen javelineer (replaces already-exisiting Theurophoros)

Syssition

• Spartiatis - champion hoplite

Rams will get nerfed so swordsman will be less essential.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Carltonus]

2 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

My take on that:

Athenians

Barracks

• Iberian Mercenary swordsman

I don't recall in the history of classical Athens hiring mercenaries from the other end of the Mediterranean, but nice try. The alternative of mercenary Thracians wielding rhomphaia makes more sense. Armor or gear can be the same for the peltasts.

The issue, @Ultimate Aurelian, is fixing the anachronisms of two classical-era factions (6th-4th century BC) regarding champion units (from the deprecating Royal Stoa) wielding ~3rd century BC thureos shields: the skirmishers (javelineers) and one or two swordsmen. Such units go to a Reform/Hellenistic (sub-)faction if one is willing to create a modification.

Have methods such as CTRL+click or icon in the HUD interface already tried for secondary weapon attack in the past?

Edited August 4, 2020 by Carltonus

[Ultimate Aurelian]

1 hour ago, Carltonus said:

I don't recall in the history of classical Athens hiring mercenaries from the other end of the Mediterranean, but nice try.

During the Peloponesian war Iberian mercenaries were recruited from Sicily by Alcibiades.

I think it would be interesting to have them in game, but Thracians were indeed more common.

[Carltonus]

20 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

During the Peloponesian war Iberian mercenaries were recruited from Sicily by Alcibiades.

That would require the creation of a second Athenian faction (Pelopponesian Wars era), since an Alcibiades actor has to be made.

@av93, @fatherbushido, @Genava55, and @wowgetoffyourcellphone: have you all reached a consensus? My preceding proposal(s) could have some improvement.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Carltonus

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

28 minutes ago, Carltonus said:

That would require the creation of a second Athenian faction (Pelopponesian Wars era), since an Alcibiades actor has to be made.

@av93, @fatherbushido, @Genava55, and @wowgetoffyourcellphone: have you all reached a consensus? My preceding proposal(s) could have some improvement.

For all technical purposes, the Athenian faction does represent itself both during the Persian and Peloponnesian Wars given the fact that Pericles is represented as a hero. 

[Genava55]

During the Theban–Spartan War of 378–362 BC:

Diodorus Siculus, 15, 70, 1: From Sicily, Celts and Iberians to the number of two thousand sailed to Corinth, for they had been sent by the tyrant Dionysius to fight in alliance with the Lacedaemonians, and had received pay for five months. The Greeks, in order to make trial of them, led them forth; and they proved their worth in hand-to-hand fighting and in battles and many both of the Boeotians and of their allies were slain by them. Accordingly, having won repute for superior dexterity and courage and rendered many kinds of service, they were given awards by the Lacedaemonians and sent back home at the close of the summer to Sicily.

Xen. Hell. 7.1.20: Just after these events had happened, the expedition sent by Dionysius to aid the Lacedaemonians sailed in, numbering more than twenty triremes. And they brought Celts, Iberians, and about fifty horsemen. On the following day the Thebans and the rest, their allies, after forming themselves in detached bodies and filling the plain as far as the sea and as far as the hills adjoining the city, destroyed whatever of value there was in the plain. And the horsemen of the Athenians and of the Corinthians did not approach very near their army, seeing that the enemy were strong and numerous.

During the Peloponnesian war, about the Sicilian Expedition in 415-413 BC:

Thuc. 6.90: "Thus stands the matter touching my own accusation. And concerning what we are to consult of, both you and I, if I know anything which you yourselves do not, hear it now. [2] We made this voyage into Sicily, first (if we could) to subdue the Sicilians, after them the Italians, after them, to assay the dominion of Carthage, and Carthage itself. [3] If these or most of these enterprises succeeded, then next we should have undertaken Peloponnesus, with the accession both of the Greek forces there and with many mercenary barbarians, Iberians and others of those parts, confessed to be the most warlike of the barbarians that are now. we should also have built many galleys besides these which we have already (there being plenty of timber in Italy); with the which besieging Peloponnesus round, and also taking the cities thereof with our land forces, upon such occasions as should arise from the land, some by assault and some by siege, we hoped easily to have debelled it and afterwards to have gotten the dominion of all Greece. [4] As for money and corn to facilitate some points of this, the places we should have conquered there, besides what here we should have found, would sufficiently have furnished us.

Also Italian mercenaries on the side of Athenes against Sicily:

Thuc. 7.33: About the same time came unto them also the aid of the Camarinaeans, five hundred men of arms, three hundred darters, and three hundred archers. Also the Geloans sent them men for five galleys, besides four hundred darters and two hundred horsemen. [2] For now all Sicily, except the Agrigentines, who were neutral, but all the rest, who before stood looking on, came in to the Syracusian side against the Athenians. [3] [Nevertheless], the Syracusians, after this blow received amongst the Siculi, held their hands and assaulted not the Athenians for a while. Demosthenes and Eurymedon, having their army now ready, crossed over from Corcyra and the continent with the whole army to the promontory of Iapygia. From thence they went to the Choerades, islands of Iapygia, and here took in certain Iapygian darters to the number of two hundred and fifty, of the Messapian nation. [4] And having renewed a certain ancient alliance with Artas, who reigned there and granted them those darters, they went thence to Metapontum, a city of Italy. There, by virtue of a league, they got two galleys and three hundred darters, which taken aboard, they kept along the shore till they came to the territory of Thurii. [5] Here they found the adverse faction to the Athenians to have been lately driven out in a sedition. [6] And because they desired to muster their army here, that they might see if any were left behind, and persuade the Thurians to join with them freely in the war, and, as things stood, to have for friends and enemies the same that were so to the Athenians; they stayed about that in the territory of the Thurians.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Genava55

[Genava55]

On 8/3/2020 at 11:42 PM, Carltonus said:

• Thracian Peltast - Thracian mercenary javelineer
• + Rhomphaiaphoros - Thracian mercenary swordsman (not champion as the deprecating Stoa, but like the Seleucid counterpart, replaces Black Cloak)

Why not Italic mercenaries?

I think we could take reference on the Lucanians to design new units.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lucanian_fresco_tomb_painting_depicting_a_duel_judge_by_a_sphinx,_340_BC,_Paestum_Archaeological_Museum_(14416492100).jpg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lucanian_fresco_tomb_painting_of_a_two_men_fighting,_3rd_century_BC,_Paestum_Archaeological_Museum_(14416565189).jpg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lucanian_fresco_tomb_painting_depicting_a_duel,_375-350_BC,_Paestum_Archaeological_Museum_(14599884491).jpg

[Carltonus]

@Genava55, pardon the bytes:

The frescoes depict what appears to be potential "hoplites"/spearmen, a skirmisher, and a swordsman. Are these all Lucanians, or some are from other Italic tribes (Samnites, etc.)?

On 8/5/2020 at 2:39 AM, Genava55 said:

Why not Italic mercenaries?

That is, if there are proposals for Syracuse faction, some other Magna Graecia (sub)faction, or an Auxilia system (by biome, or embassies) can be added for the Romans. Maybe for Epirotes.

A few of such units from Total War Rome II:

• Native Lucanian Warriors (champion or mercenary swordsmen): https://www.honga.net/totalwar/rome2/unit.php?l=en&v=rome2&f=inv_rome&u=inv_local_lucanian_warriors

 The best image of them I can find.

• Mercenary Brutti Veterans (champion? skirmishers): https://www.honga.net/totalwar/rome2/unit.php?l=en&v=rome2&f=&u=inv_mercenary_brutti_veterans

Edited August 16, 2020 by Carltonus

[wackyserious]

On 11/04/2019 at 12:07 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

the only correct answer for me : reforms and  mercenary camps

 

The only solution that I also see, but it also left a question in me, will reforms really be especially during mid or late game?

Say if city phase reforms tech brings infantry_pikemen_b-e to Sparta, could it influence gameplay?

Skiritai and thorakitai will also add conflict, the same with thureophoroi and Thracian peltasts.

We have a more viable option left, to consider adding mercenary camps as capturable map objects. DE had a good mechanic for this one, it does not take population point but you can only train certain numbers of mercenary units for each camp, so you need to capture more camps if you want to train more. I think this is a good gameplay feature, where you compete for gaia owned camps to alter the power balance during the game.

I am bumping this because I also felt that this is causing inconsistencies in the game design and fixing this will be a step forward in fixing gameplay and feature inconsistencies.

[wackyserious]

I also have another question regarding adding new Atlas unit only units, do we currently have a standard on this one? I am asking because I have several ideas for Atlas only units which again I deem to be quite controversial, so I am hoping to find clarity with it.

So far, historically relevant, I have the following for special unit work drafts.

1. 1.) Scythian Horse Archer
2. 2.) Illyrian Marine (Pirate)
3. 3.) African Veteran (Punic War)

4.) Slave rebel (Servile War) which I actually added the last time I committed the unit textures for gladiator units (another special unit that we added some months ago)

We also have Atlas only heroes (Although I believe they become playable during regicide, iirc?)

1. 1.) Xenophon
2. 2.) Pyrrhus
3. 3.) Leonidas (300 variant)
4. 4.) Several unmounted hero variants

[Carltonus]

On 19/10/2020 at 5:40 AM, wackyserious said:

The only solution that I also see, but it also left a question in me, will reforms really be especially during mid or late game?

Say if city phase reforms tech brings infantry_pikemen_b-e to Sparta, could it influence gameplay?

Skiritai and thorakitai will also add conflict, the same with thureophoroi and Thracian peltasts.

We have a more viable option left, to consider adding mercenary camps as capturable map objects. DE had a good mechanic for this one, it does not take population point but you can only train certain numbers of mercenary units for each camp, so you need to capture more camps if you want to train more. I think this is a good gameplay feature, where you compete for gaia owned camps to alter the power balance during the game.

I am bumping this because I also felt that this is causing inconsistencies in the game design and fixing this will be a step forward in fixing gameplay and feature inconsistencies.

Another option can be a separate reformed (Hellenistic) Spartan faction, the village phase will have pikemen, Skiritai peltasts, and Tarantine cavalry, and the rest will follow. Athens can also follow suit so epibates (marines) can be basic-elite and champion hoplites are logades instead of epilektos.

That way, these are consistent with the theuros-wielding soldiers which used to be recruitable at the stoa. Still clinging on the hypaspist swordsmen for the Macedonians.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Carltonus

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 19/10/2020 at 8:40 AM, wackyserious said:

Say if city phase reforms tech brings infantry_pikemen_b-e to Sparta, could it influence gameplay?

 

27 minutes ago, Carltonus said:

Another option can be a separate reformed (Hellenistic) Spartan faction

The way DE does it is with Hero selection. For instance with Sparta, if you choose Leonidas you get hoplite units, while if you choose Cleomenes III (who reformed the Spartan army to counter the Antigonid Macedonians) you get phalangite units. Heroes are more integral to the game in DE though.

[Carltonus]

So, anyone has plans for the future replacements? To summarize my above points:

• The Athenian mercenary swordsman should be like the Seleucids (basic-to-elite), but with pelte as their offhand; while the champion skirmisher should be the ekdromoi (light hoplites) from previous alphas; if a player brings out Iphicrates, the gymnasium trains Iphicratean peltasts instead.
• The Odrysian mounted skirmishers should be reserved to a Hellenistic-era (Post-Alexander) Macedonian faction. Same with the black-cloaks. If not, both of them should also wield pelte instead of the theuros to remove the anachronism.
• The Spartan thorakites can be replaced with hoplites wielding swords (or mercenary Lucanians/Celto-Iberians). Delenda Est allows them to be part of the phalanx formation together with their spear-wielding counterparts. Same with Macedonians with their hypaspists.

[Genava55]

http://profesorjuliodapenalosada.blogspot.com/2015/12/le-soldat-lagide.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agatharchides

It seems Agatharchide was talking about those cavalrymen.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Genava55