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===[TASK]=== Current issues with Celtic units and guideline for the next

Genava55

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Genava55 Primus Pilus

Genava55

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Small correction, a type of helmets depicted on Gallic coin are actually Greek coins from Massalia copied by the Gauls.

I edited this  :https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25184-task-current-issues-with-celtic-units-and-guideline-for-the-next/&do=findComment&comment=369025

About the roster:

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These ones are the concerned coins:

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Alexandermb
Alexandermb

Habemus carnyx:  

Alexandermb
Alexandermb

@Genava55 is a good start? trying to get some of them done starting by the oval Variant. Note: Added the brown color around the shields for a better gameplay aspect, whitout it looks really dul

thankforpie
thankforpie

this is unacceptable

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Genava55 Primus Pilus

Genava55

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https://ulasnews.com/2019/05/23/unique-iron-age-shield-found-by-leicester-archaeologists/?fbclid=IwAR2YY3wSuYPhsS1v4ptpnzdJPfO5ppv3udSkGr6o2eZ66MRVmUKrt5YbAfg

Bark shield and woven shield boss ;-)

Edit: In French: https://www.geo.fr/histoire/en-angleterre-des-archeologues-decouvrent-le-premier-bouclier-de-lage-du-fer-fabrique-avec-de-lecorce-195815

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Genava55 Primus Pilus

Genava55

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I use the SVN version but I have this that is appearing, is it normal ?

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The healers are very nice by the way

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There is still the wooden scabbard on the fanatics

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Edit: and do you want to keep the different shades for the bronze helmets? Because currently there is this issue only with the Celts and I am not sure it will be appreciated by the players:

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Alexandermb Primus Pilus

Alexandermb

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  On 31/08/2019 at 2:15 PM, Genava55 said:

I use the SVN version but I have this that is appearing, is it normal ?

There is still the wooden scabbard on the fanatics

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Edit: and do you want to keep the different shades for the bronze helmets? Because currently there is this issue only with the Celts and I am not sure it will be appreciated by the players:

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1 Be sure to update your SVN, here in my SVN is working properly.
2. Haven uploaded scabbard nor carnyx, will give it a look after merge the celtic helmets into the blendfile of hellenic/roman helmets and if possible even rebake some.
3. So only one bronze tone? one darkened like the iberian hispano chalcidean its okay?

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Genava55 Primus Pilus

Genava55

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  On 31/08/2019 at 2:55 PM, Alexandermb said:

1 Be sure to update your SVN, here in my SVN is working properly.

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Ok. Weird. I did an update but I have still the issue, both in the editor and in solo matches.

  On 31/08/2019 at 2:55 PM, Alexandermb said:

So only one bronze tone? one darkened like the iberian hispano chalcidean its okay?

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The current very dark one for the Celts is excessive I think. This is making the faction weird in comparison of the others. But no problem with using the other shades currently in use in other factions.

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Genava55 Primus Pilus

Genava55

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Just posting a to-do list for the future (not necessarily things urgent for the next release, could be postpone for the following one).

Buildings:

Updating the shields on the buildings:

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If you are looking for a circular thing as an asset, there is the wheel, a recurring symbol representing higher social status and mythological believes.

Temples:

Replacing the actual temple by more historically accurate buildings. The current temple can be slightly modified and transformed to a small feasting place if this kind of building is needed. For a new Gallic temple, @Sundiatastarted something interesting. For the Britons, maybe something inspired by Irish iron age sanctuaries (Dun Ailinne or Rathcroghan for example) or something purely British like the Heathrow, Hayling Island and Fison Way iron age sanctuaries.

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Taverna:

Even if I like the building, I think the idea to make it an important structure of the Gauls falls in the cliché category. Feasting is an important part of the Celtic tradition, it is an institution that has huge impact on social and political processes in the society. Although it is not what everybody imagines with a small group of persons in an auberge/albergue like in the 1st movie of Lord of the Rings (The Prancing Pony). This kind of tavern could have existed but is related more to the merchants and artisans community and have little importance in the Celtic society. The game is skipping a lot of economical complexities so I do not know how this building could be include, although mods that are modifying the game to make it a city builder could use it.

Monument:

This is maybe the most pressing issue since it is the less accurate and the more cliché building of the Celtic factions (Stonehenge). @wowgetoffyourcellphone got an excellent idea with the Uffington White Horse for the Britons, although I am not sure if it fits well in the idea of monumentality (your opinion guys?) but clearly I think his idea should be include somehow. The other possibility for the Britons are among the sanctuaries proposed for the new temple (see above). Irish iron age buildings can be quite impressive. Bloodgate Hill Iron Age Fort can be used as an inspiration too. For the Gauls there is the Corent sanctuary made by @Stan`, maybe he wants to change to thatched roofs or wooden tiles like the fortress. No problem for me. The other possibility could be the huge sanctuary/assembly-place in Titelberg. The necropolis/death-related-votives-buildings of Acy-Romance could be an option if regrouped as successive buildings.

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Units:

The name list of the units should be updated one day or another.

The roster of the Britons and of the Gauls should be differentiated one day or another. I think we should wait what insight and design will emerge from @borg- modding and testing, with the feedback of other players. For the moment my proposals are waiting. Changing the roster is not something to do lightly. And the possible changes on the military design of the game can have huge effect in my proposals for the roster (notably about swords units). I do not know which conclusion the team reaches after the crazy flame-war discussion around Borg mod.

 The iron scabbard and the carnyx will probably be added soon according to @Alexandermb message. He already did a huge work on the shields, on the helmets and on the weapons.

The heroes should be updated as well in the future. Currently they are some issues on the design of those.

 

 

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Nescio Primus Pilus

Nescio

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Why the bold face?

But yes, I have some suggestion. Here are some of them:

  • Give the Gauls a b/a/e infantry archer (well attested by Caesar), maybe a cavalry swordsman (Carthage can train it already), and perhaps a chariot (images of Celtic chariots have been found in Northern Italy). Britons could also use some new units (perhaps champion javelineers?), but I know very little about them, so I'll leave them to @Genava55 and others. Also, I believe Celtic unit rosters have already been discussed more than once last year.
  • Disable the problematic kennel and make war dogs trainable at structures players would actually build, e.g. barracks, corral, house.
  • Replace the tavern with something more meaningful.
  • Give Britons or Gauls (or both) a new temple actor. Currently they use fundamentally the same actor, which has a design similar to barracks:  (Don't delete the old actor; modders might want to use it for e.g. a non-buildable mercenary camp.)
  • Give Britons and Gauls new wonder actors; both the Stonehenge and the Uffington White Horse are problematic.
  • Differentiate Briton and Gaul druids (e.g. one has more health, the other more armour)
  • Further differentiate Britons and Gauls by their civ bonuses. E.g. currently both their structures are cheaper, weaker, and provide population bonus; maybe give one civ the cheaper and weaker structures and the other the population bonus. Also, Carthage imported tin from Cornwall and the Celts invented the chainmail, didn't they? So maybe introduce some metallurgy civ bonuses or technologies?
  On 22/09/2019 at 10:38 AM, Genava55 said:

I think we should wait what insight and design will emerge from @borg- modding and testing, with the feedback of other players.

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Although the intention is there, it's unclear if and when that'll happen, so don't wait for it. Discuss what you like to have added ideally; stats can be tweaked later.

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Genava55 Primus Pilus

Genava55

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  On 05/01/2020 at 11:19 AM, Stan` said:

 

@Genava55

 

can you give your thoughts and maybe specific names on https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2155?

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Generally Druids are considered practicing medical intervention. Although there are debates about the wide term and its limits. Druid could be a generic term applied to a wide range of intellectual practitioners with specialists. Or a very specific term for high-ranking member of the priest class. Anyway, I think it is safe to use the Druid terminology for the healer but if you want several kind of "priests", you can use for the healer another name known from the Celtic society: the Uatis, which is the counterpart of the Roman Vates. But in my opinion, Druid is ok currently.

  On 05/01/2020 at 7:39 PM, Nescio said:

Give the Gauls a b/a/e infantry archer (well attested by Caesar)

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I agree, furthermore it gives a difference with the Britons.

  On 05/01/2020 at 7:39 PM, Nescio said:

maybe a cavalry swordsman (Carthage can train it already)

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For me, the Gallic cavalryman is probably the most important figure of the Gallic warfare and probably the most reputed tactical unit in the view of other cultures. However, I do not want to make them overpowered with regular foot swordsmen AND cavalry swordsmen if the current gameplay favors the sword that much. Swords and longswords are a kind of topos (cliché) for the Gauls at their time and clearly from the material evidences, the sword is really an important item of the warrior class, following as well the evolution of the warfare century after century with adapting features.

  On 05/01/2020 at 7:39 PM, Nescio said:

and perhaps a chariot (images of Celtic chariots have been found in Northern Italy)

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Without any doubt, Gauls did used chariots in battles. There are depictions, classical accounts and material evidences for these. However, the use of war chariot started to fade during the 3rd century BC and we find no material evidences and no accounts for the 2nd and 1st century BC for the Gauls. So, I would suggest to keep it for the Britons. But if you guys prefer to give it to both, no problem with that.

  On 05/01/2020 at 7:39 PM, Nescio said:

Disable the problematic kennel and make war dogs trainable at structures players would actually build, e.g. barracks, corral, house.

Expand  

I agree.

  On 05/01/2020 at 7:39 PM, Nescio said:

Replace the tavern with something more meaningful.

Expand  

I agree.

  On 05/01/2020 at 7:39 PM, Nescio said:

Give Britons or Gauls (or both) a new temple actor. Currently they use fundamentally the same actor, which has a design similar to barracks:  (Don't delete the old actor; modders might want to use it for e.g. a non-buildable mercenary camp.)

Expand  

I agree. Different temples can be done for them.

  On 05/01/2020 at 7:39 PM, Nescio said:

Give Britons and Gauls new wonder actors; both the Stonehenge and the Uffington White Horse are problematic.

Expand  

I agree and I liked the prototypes made by Stan.

  On 05/01/2020 at 7:39 PM, Nescio said:

Differentiate Briton and Gaul druids (e.g. one has more health, the other more armour)

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I agree and I can suggest new helmets to differentiate them. We can even give weapons. To discuss if needed.

  Edit:

  On 05/01/2020 at 7:39 PM, Nescio said:

Britons could also use some new units (perhaps champion javelineers?), but I know very little about them, so I'll leave them to @Genava55 and others.

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Britons are a harder topic even for me. Lower area (only England and Wales), lower density of warfare related material evidences, fewer classical accounts, fewer interest for decades (for various reasons), very restrictive practice of publication, tendency in the past from British historians to apply blindly what have been found on the continent to Britons to fill the gap etc.

However, I want to highlight that the current faction of the Britons is mixing Scottish and British Iron Age (Broch for example). Which I don't think is a problem since most of the time, the Romans weren't able to differentiate them. And it could be a good opportunity to give unique features to the Britons through inclusion of Scottish and Irish Iron Age (although complex topics).

 

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Nescio Primus Pilus

Nescio

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  On 05/01/2020 at 8:26 PM, Genava55 said:

We can even give weapons.

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That would be great (units that can both fight and heal), but before that could be introduced, probably some additional simulation code is required to prevent druids from attacking and healing at the same time.

  On 05/01/2020 at 8:26 PM, Genava55 said:

However, I want to highlight that the current faction of the Britons is mixing Scottish and British Iron Age (Broch for example).

Expand  

British in an ethno-linguistic sense (Brittonic), but Scottish in a geographic sense? (The Scots came from what is now Northern Ireland in the early mediaeval times and later replaced the Picts, in “Alba”.)

Having the Britons focus on ranged units, especially javelinists, and the Gauls on melee units, especially cavalry, in combination with Britons having cheaper but weaker structures (but stronger fortresses to compensate) and Gauls having structures with population bonuses would already be a starting point to further differentiate them from each other.

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Genava55 Primus Pilus

Genava55

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  On 05/01/2020 at 9:17 PM, Nescio said:

British in an ethno-linguistic sense (Brittonic), but Scottish in a geographic sense? (The Scots came from what is now Northern Ireland in the early mediaeval times and later replaced the Picts, in “Alba”.)

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I know this is weird but the old historians choose to use the label "British" to designate the southern Iron Age. Cannot change history. Now, British archeology moved during the last decades to a paranoid state, refusing to generalize anything properly, questioning even the use of the term "Celtic" to the Britons. So, there is no widespread terminology for the Iron Age in Scotland.

image.png.09c4afaa651195049873b849891c67ba.png

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Nescio Primus Pilus

Nescio

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  On 05/01/2020 at 9:32 PM, Genava55 said:

I know this is weird but the old historians choose to use the label "British" to designate the southern Iron Age. Cannot change history. Now, British archeology moved during the last decades to a paranoid state, refusing to generalize anything properly, questioning even the use of the term "Celtic" to the Britons. So, there is no widespread terminology for the Iron Age in Scotland.

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Thanks for the clarification!

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Genava55 Primus Pilus

Genava55

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@wowgetoffyourcellphone @Nescio

I have a few questions about how you would like quick visual identification of the units.

What do you think about the shield shape evolving according to the experience (basic, advanced, elite)? Initially I made suggestion with the shape changing accordingly but I think now it is not necessarily a good idea.

I am thinking to propose something more restrictive on the shield shape for each unit. For example a Gallic Spearman using only oval and tall shields, Gallic Skirmisher using only square and medium shields and Gallic Swordsman using hexagonal and tall shields.

Maybe we could simply use shield bosses, capes, helmets and adornments to distinguish the experienced units. For the Britons, shield decoration and tattooes can be an additional way to distinguish the experienced units.

Finally, about the roster I am thinking about the early phase and how to not break the balance by adding swordsmen too early.

For the moment the Romans have the particularity of having early swordsmen. Maybe we could give to the Gauls an early sword cavalry to make the faction more unique to play and without early slinger or early light cavalry :

Village phase:

  • Gallic Woman
  • Gallic Fishing Boat
  • Gallic Spearman
  • Gallic Javelinist
  • Gallic Cavalry Swordsman

While the Britons could have a more classical roster with more diversity and even the war dog early:

Village phase:

  • Britonnic Woman
  • Britonnic Fishing Boat
  • Britonnic Spearman
  • Britonnic Slinger
  • Britonnic Cavalry Javelinist
  • Britonnic War Dog

I think the early game is where the things can be messed up by making a faction too strong but it is as well an important feature of the Gauls to be strong in the early game (probably a reference to their historical spread early). In the town phase, the roster for the Gauls could be more diverse without overpowered units:

Town phase:

  • Gallic Healer
  • Gallic Merchant Ship
  • Gallic Trader
  • Gallic Slinger
  • Gallic Naked Spearman
  • Gallic Cavalry Javelinist
  • Gallic War Barge

The naked spearman fanatic is not really that strong I think and at this point the Gallic roster is more stable, the naked spearman is there instead of a spear cavalry. While in the Britons, the town phase could include a cavalry spearman. Although, I am really in favor of adding a naked swordsman to Britons (a reference to the Caledonians and the Picts), I don't want to break the balance because a swordsman moving that fast could be quite strong. Maybe it should be kept for the city phase and instead the Celtic Chariot should be include more early. The role of the chariot could be more suited to the second phase and I really hope it could be used as battle-taxi for another unit. Thus something like this:

Town phase:

  • Britonnic Healer
  • Britonnic Merchant Ship
  • Britonnic Trader
  • Britonnic Cavalry Spearman
  • Britonnic Chariot
  • Britonnic War Barge

Then in the third phase, it should be more acceptable to give better units since both factions are lacking siege engines (excepted the ram). Unlocking archer and infantry swordsman for the Gauls could make them more resilient to the late phase. Their champion unit should be a cavalryman for the late phase. While the Britons could have their Caledonian/Pictish naked swordsman for the late game and even a swordsman champion in addition of a javelinist champion.

City phase:

  • Gallic Swordsman
  • Gallic Archer
  • Gallic Cavalry Spearman Champion
  • Gallic Battering Ram
  • (maybe a regional champion unit? like an Alpine Axeman)

City phase:

  • Britonnic/Ivernic Javelinist Champion
  • Britonnic/Caledonian Naked Swordsman
  • Britonnic Swordsman Champion
  • Britonnic Battering Ram

 

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