===[TASK]=== Crowd Sourced - Thracians (Faction)

[Alexandermb]

On 7/4/2017 at 11:26 AM, Sundiata said:

 

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Spoiler

https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/102790034606322547772/6136396915874557458?sqid=108152884877409169837&ssid=d9462697-8e91-4d5d-87c2-b2dae666204f Closer look

 

[Stan`]

@Alexandermb Thracians are not planned for this release anyway. Also you don't have any files, I've got everything on my hard drive.

[Sundiata]

1 hour ago, Hannibal_Barca said:

I'm a bit busy in current and coming days so I don't expect I'll look into this

The key to a civilization is uniqueness and aesthetics

Unique techs and units would be needed, with exotic-looking structures to top

But as I said, I don't have time for this

No problem, just wanted you to be aware of this.

 

56 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

I could release what I have so far and let people contribute to it

 

32 minutes ago, Alexandermb said:

For me the finishing date was this weak, later updates or changes will have to wait for alpha 24 only 2D and Template changes are missing IIRC so, should i make a base for the shield textures for someone hand paint the patterns with textures like the millenium ad shields?

I'd say go for it!  I'll see if I can contribute with my measly texture skills...

[Alexandermb]

39 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

@Alexandermb Thracians are not planned for this release anyway. Also you don't have any files, I've got everything on my hard drive.

No problem ill make a base whitout uv.

[Sundiata]

14 minutes ago, Alexandermb said:

Closer look

Nice... It's a Dacian temple though, and Stanislas already made a more appropriate Thracian temple.

It is a beautiful structure though... Maybe it could be used as a model for a special building (Thracians had some round structures as well). Just not sure what. 

[Stan`]

There was a thracian round temple in one of the refs on that romanian website.

[Sundiata]

Yeah, in the end, I'm not all that particular about separating Dacians culturally from Thracians, as they formed a clear cultural continuum. The term Traco-Geto-Dacii is sometimes used to refer to them as a whole, and Getae and Dacians just seem to be subsets of greater Thrace. I shared those Dacian references last year to get a better idea of the architecture of that region, as some of the Dacian sites are better preserved. So for me, Dacian references are fair game, but they should be used subtly, to fill potential gaps, so that there is room enough to differentiate them from a more explicitly Dacian Kingdom for 0AD's mythical part 2. So units should be mostly/purely "pre-Dacian kingdom" Thrace i.m.o...

On that note, Burebista is an attractive third choice for Hero, the first Thracian king to unite the Getae and the Dacians. A late hero to represent the power shift from the Odrysian kingdom to the Dacians.

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Burebista (Ancient Greek: Βυρεβίστας, Βοιρεβίστας) was a Thracian king of the Getae and Dacian tribes from 82/81 BC to 45/44 BC. He was the first king who successfully unified the tribes of the Dacian kingdom, which comprised the area located between the Danube, Tisza, and Dniester rivers and modern day Romania. In the 7th and 6th centuries BC it became home to the Thracian peoples, including the Getae and the Dacians. From the 4th century to the middle of the 2nd century BC the Dacian peoples were influenced by La Tène Celts who brought new technologies with them into Dacia. Sometime in the 2nd century BC the Dacians expelled the Celts from their lands. Dacians often warred with neighbouring tribes, but the relative isolation of the Dacian peoples in the Carpathian Mountains allowed them to survive and even to thrive. By the 1st century BC the Dacians had become the dominant tribe.

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Spoiler

Burebista:

 

Dacian town, Argedava:

 

Dacian village life:

 

The following documentary is quite interesting, although a measure of caution is necessary here. There are some nationalistic undertones, and a reactionary narrative. I understand their frustration as this history is not widely known or discussed, and is often reduced to the term "Barbarians", which clearly doesn't fit with the popular meaning of that word today. They were more advanced than most people give them credit for (like Celts), but there are a few farts in this docu to be aware of. They shamelessly show the ruins of Perpericon, which was an important Thracian city, true, but those ruins date to the Roman period. Questionable historian dude also states that Chinese generals pledged loyalty to the Dacian King Decebalus in his war against the Romans, without even trying to reference it... I mean, dude... But some other incredible things, like the Thracian origin of a number of Greek gods and the importance of Thrace in the Trojan war and Alexanders conquests and the importance of Dacians in Imperial Rome actually checks out (to some degree)..

 

 

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I think Dacian architectural references are okay for the Thracians in lieu of good references. As far as units go, I think the Dacian units would at least look distinct from Thracian units:

• Dacian units are partially influenced by Romans (some chainmail, etc.), Sarmatians (cavalry, head gear, etc.), Celts, and Germans.
• Dacians would have Roman-type siege weapons.
• Dacians would have an even more nerfed navy than the Thracians.
• Thracian units would have a somewhat Greek influence.
• Perhaps visually, Dacian units would have more long sleeves and long pants, while the Thracians would have short sleeves and pantless tunics. Just a general observation.

[Stan`]

Let's do this. But first sleep. And mother's day and a lot of other stuff Like packaging and fixing bugs.

[Sundiata]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think Dacian architectural references are okay for the Thracians in lieu of good references. As far as units go, I think the Dacian units would at least look distinct from Thracian units:

• Dacian units are partially influenced by Romans (some chainmail, etc.), Sarmatians (cavalry, head gear, etc.), Celts, and Germans.
• Dacians would have Roman-type siege weapons.
• Dacians would have an even more nerfed navy than the Thracians.
• Thracian units would have a somewhat Greek influence.
• Perhaps visually, Dacian units would have more long sleeves and long pants, while the Thracians would have short sleeves and pantless tunics. Just a general observation.

I think your general observations are on point...

I read something about artillery use at some Thracian sites, but need to read up more about that...

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think Dacian architectural references are okay for the Thracians in lieu of good references. As far as units go, I think the Dacian units would at least look distinct from Thracian units:

• Dacian units are partially influenced by Romans (some chainmail, etc.), Sarmatians (cavalry, head gear, etc.), Celts, and Germans.
• Dacians would have Roman-type siege weapons.
• Dacians would have an even more nerfed navy than the Thracians.
• Thracian units would have a somewhat Greek influence.
• Perhaps visually, Dacian units would have more long sleeves and long pants, while the Thracians would have short sleeves and pantless tunics. Just a general observation.

Thracians are more kind Greek and Dacians more Germanic.

[Nescio]

8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think Dacian architectural references are okay for the Thracians in lieu of good references. As far as units go, I think the Dacian units would at least look distinct from Thracian units:

• Dacian units are partially influenced by Romans (some chainmail, etc.), Sarmatians (cavalry, head gear, etc.), Celts, and Germans.
• Dacians would have Roman-type siege weapons.
• Dacians would have an even more nerfed navy than the Thracians.
• Thracian units would have a somewhat Greek influence.
• Perhaps visually, Dacian units would have more long sleeves and long pants, while the Thracians would have short sleeves and pantless tunics. Just a general observation.

One important thing to keep in mind is that most of what we know of the Thracians is based on Greek sources from the late 5th C BC and most of what we know of the Dacians is based on Roman sources from the early 2nd C AD; a lot can change in 500 years and this could easily explain the "Greek vs Roman"-influence. E.g. Thrace had Roman-style swordsmen when it was a protectorate of Rome during the 1st C BC and AD, until it was reduced to a Roman province by Claudius, after which Thracians formed one of the largest ethnicities in the Roman armies.

It is unknown how exactly Thracian(s) and Dacian(s) are related, but it is clear they formed a continuum. Yes, there were differences, but the most important one is that Thracians lived south of the Danube (and hence most of their archaeology is done by Bulgarians) and Dacians north of the Danube (and thus mostly Romanian archaeologists do the work on them).

7 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Thracians are more kind Greek and Dacians more Germanic.

Thrace was closer to Greece, so yes, one would expect they were more influenced by them than were the Dacians. After the Celts invaded the Balkans, some of them settled beyond the Danube - a lot of Celtic warrior graves have been found in Dacian area - so Dacians had a stronger Celtic influence than had the Thracians. (I'm not too sure about the Germanic element and would be interested in more information on this.) Furthermore, the closer to the north-east, the higher the Scythian influence on both Dacians and Thracians, up to the point it can become virtually impossible to distinguish them.

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 minutes ago, Nescio said:

One important thing to keep in mind is that most of what we know of the Thracians is based on Greek

Yes like 80% of people around  Romans and Greeks. 

[Sundiata]

So I noticed something... There exists a type of traditional (vernacular) architecture very similar in both rural Romania and Bulgaria. It's very clearly, pre-Ottoman, pre-Byzantine and even pre-Roman. It looks quite different to Slavic architecture as well... In fact, this type of buildings are very similar to the few reconstructions of village type structures from ancient Thrace and Dacia, and may have served as a source of inspiration for some of the reconstructions. This isn't be the only "remnant" of ancient times, take a look at the Bulgarian Surva Festival and see some pre-Christian traditions alive and well (and that clearly isn't Roman or Greek origin either). The Surva festival also offers a clue for priest/shaman?

Anyway, here's lots of inspiration for you @stanislas69, just avoid the obvious modernisms... Wooden shingles (no ceramic roof-tiles), or thatch and even stone slabs. Lots of wood, but also mud plastered mud brick, rammed earth, wattle and daub and stone are used for the lower storey. 2 stories aren't uncommon (ground floor was often used for animals). Upper floor sometimes have a slight overhang. Relatively steep roofs. Often have a squarish ground plan (though not exclusively so)

Spoiler

First, some Dacian reconstructions from the citadel at ardeu

 

Regular Dacian house:

 

 

A large selection of the traditional architecture of Romania and Bulgaria (thoroughly mixed, sorry, couldn't be bothered to group it...):

 

 

Today:

 

 

Like the CC and temple, I was thinking that their dock could have a more pronounced Hellenic influence. There were many Greek cities on the Black sea under Thracian "protection", and could/should be the source of their Hellenized navy. Essentially a Greek dock, but with wooden shingles to tie it in with the rest of the building set. We shouldn't forget that the Danube also runs through their territory and provided them with a Celtic connection, so their trading ship could be Celtic (looking).

I think it would be nice to use thatched roofs for the storehouse and farmstead (only), emphasizing the rural aspect.  

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Sundiata

[Stan`]

I did use wooden shingles for buildings so far. Thanks for those references. I should really upload it, but I'm busy packaging the other mods.

[Sundiata]

29 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

I did use wooden shingles for buildings so far. Thanks for those references. I should really upload it, but I'm busy packaging the other mods.

There's no rush  

[Stan`]

@Sundiata @Alexandermb

Here are the source files: https://github.com/0ADMods/share

And the output: https://github.com/0ADMods/thracians

 

So knock yourselves out

[wackyserious]

Plans on adding this to Terra Magna? (Plus other factions like the Epirotes and Thebans from DE)

[wackyserious]

I'm trying to work on the unit simulation files and actor files, there seems to be a lot of errors in the civ file.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Maybe Thracian first then Epirotes.

[wackyserious]

I'll add this to my workload after Terra Magna and Millennium AD is released. There are currently tons of errors though.

[wackyserious]

[Genava55]

5 hours ago, Genava55 said:

https://www.docdroid.net/qpO72Yg/thracian-combined.pdf

An extract:

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Something in French in case someone is interested:

https://issuu.com/baranes/docs/l_e__pope__e_des_rois_thraces_2__ex

Others useful sources for Geto-Dacians:

https://fsu.valahia.ro/images/avutgs/1/2005/2005050201.pdf

https://www.academia.edu/3195737/Warriors_and_weapons_in_Dacia_in_the_2nd_BC_1st_AD_Centuries_-_Ph_-_thesis_abstract_

Argidava by Radu Oltean

http://www.romaniadevis.ro/dacia/zona-geto-daca/reconstituiri-3d/item/cetatea-banita-reconstituire-3d

Edited October 13, 2018 by Genava55

[Alexandermb]

Fixed a few parent templates mistakes on defense/sentry/outpost towers, also added Dirt 4x6 to temple.

[Alexandermb]

Type of cloak patterns used by thracians (Osprey publishing The Thracians 700BC)

Desing of peltast shields used by thracians (Greek Desings) Same book.



Reconstruction of a thracian light infantry skirmish (Same book).

Edited October 20, 2018 by Alexandermb