The Kingdom of Kush: A proper introduction [Illustrated]

[balduin]

@niektb @LordGood @wowgetoffyourcellphone Do I understand it correct: The Rise of the East and the Zapotec Mod will be merged into a new mod called Terra Magna? You think developing/merging the Kingdom of Kush in the Terra Magna mod would be a good idea?

@feneur If it easy to move posts later into a forum, that works for me.

@Sundiata @LordGood I like the idea of having a courtyard with archery range. Maybe some other training equipment and weapons.

 

[Sundiata]

@niektb I have to admit, the pdf was all balduin...

@balduin Thanks for the advice on downloading the pdf (took me 2 seconds). Reading through it is a breeze now.

@Lion.Kanzen You're right, I have made mention of Indian influence, but for now, the only concrete evidence I've seen is the elephant statuette from Meroe (which depicts an Indian elephant). Other possible examples of this influence are some temple reliefs.. 

Spoiler

fig. 110  Indian elephant with mahout, from Meroe. 

fig. 111  This relief of Apedemak is stylistically different from most depictions of this god. Persian or Indian influences are suspected. 

fig. 112  This multi-headed, multi-armed, frontal depiction of Apedemak is stylistically non-Meroitic, similar to depictions of Indian gods.

fig 113  Broken lion statues still hint at a certain naturalism, which is rare in Nile Valley art. Much more similar to Greek or Indian art. 

 

Kush was connected to the Indian ocean trade through the port of Adulis (controlled by Axum), and the ports of Suakin (Arab and Beja controlled) and Ptolemais Theron (Hellenic)  

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Sundiata

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Mybe a couple of Egyptian style column next to the front door of the barracks, flanked by 2 lions? Reuse the Egyptian textures and mix them into the Kushite buildings. I'm not getting the Egyptian influence yet from these --very good -- structures. The front door of the barracks also looks very very small, for midget.

Edited February 12, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[niektb]

7 hours ago, balduin said:

@niektb @LordGood @wowgetoffyourcellphone Do I understand it correct: The Rise of the East and the Zapotec Mod will be merged into a new mod called Terra Magna? You think developing/merging the Kingdom of Kush in the Terra Magna mod would be a good idea?

Yes and yes

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Undoubtedly, l add them to DE with special modification.

[Sundiata]

On 13 Feb 2017 at 7:51 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

with special modification

Sounds spicy… Care to elaborate?

"Mybe a couple of Egyptian style column next to the front door of the barracks, flanked by 2 lions?"

I kind of like this.

fig. 114  Maybe the doorways can be flanked by kushite stela, inscribed with hieroglyphs, or Meroitic sccript, like this one (although the temple should also have some stela like this):

Edited May 28, 2017 by Sundiata

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

Sounds spicy… Care to elaborate?

"Mybe a couple of Egyptian style column next to the front door of the barracks, flanked by 2 lions?"

I kind of like this.

Maybe the doorways can be flanked by kushite stela, inscribed with hieroglyphs, or Meroitic sccript, like this one (although the temple should also have some stela like this):

How the lions looks like?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 hours ago, Sundiata said:

Sounds spicy… Care to elaborate?

I do not want to go off topic, but I would add the DE features, like Cult Statue, Mercenaries for Merc Camp, etc.

[Enrique]

I'm not following very closely the developement of this civ, but I can't avoid getting a lot of mexican vibes from the buildings. 

More earth-y looking facades would fit better IMO - There are very good references in this previous post:

 

[balduin]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone I assume DE is short for Delenda Est.

29 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

DE features

I would be really happy if you could explain what exactly you mean by DE features. You already started to mention it, so do me the favor and explain what exactly you mean. Going off-topic is better than not explaining it.

[Lion.Kanzen]

For me looks more Indian or Persian, Mexican( Aztec-post colonial) architecture have some differences. But indeed have the vibres of more advancing culture, I feeling medieval oriental.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Spoiler

Originally a visita for the nearby monastery at Tinum, Uayma became the head mission in the 17th century.  The convento was completed in 1642 using stones from nearby Maya ruins.  In the 18th century, the secular clergy built the exuberantly decorated church that we see today.  Both the exterior and interior of the church were stuccoed, incised with highly stylized flowers and geometric patterns, then painted in bright terra cotta, turquoise and a creamy white.  
The church was burned during the Caste War in the mid-19th Century; it was abandoned and its vault completely collapsed.  Restoration of the church to its pristine condition was completed by Adopte una obra de arte (Adopt a Work of Art) and INAH (The National Institue of Anthropology and History) in 2004.

http://www.mexicanarchitecture.org/

[Sundiata]

6 hours ago, Enrique said:

 

I'm not following very closely the developement of this civ, but I can't avoid getting a lot of mexican vibes from the buildings. 

More earth-y looking facades would fit better IMO - There are very good references in this previous post:

 

Actually, in terms of architectural style and features, LordGood has done an amazing job of modeling these buildings. They're very clearly Kushite. In terms of texture, Kushites used both white lime plaster, and mud-plaster. But white lime plaster was used quite extensively, especially during the more affluent periods (not unlike the Carthaginians). LordGood seems to have gone for a sort of midway option. It looks good for now, but might be eligible for change later, if LordGood or other artists contribute new textures for the texture pack. In terms of decorative paterns LordGood nailed it again. 

In terms of the "Egyptian feel", that will become more apparent with the temple (lion temple of Apedemak) and the special building (temple to Amun). 

[Sundiata]

@Lion.Kanzen 

fig. 115  I present to you, intact Kushite lion statues from the temple at Basa:

They weigh 2 tons each 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Sundiata

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

12 hours ago, balduin said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone I assume DE is short for Delenda Est.

I would be really happy if you could explain what exactly you mean by DE features. You already started to mention it, so do me the favor and explain what exactly you mean. Going off-topic is better than not explaining it.

• Glory and Cult Statues
• How Siege Weapons are built is heavily modified for all civs
• Mercenaries and Mercenary Camps
• Technology trees completely changed, expanded, and complexity added
• Too many other thing to list here

 

[balduin]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone Thanks for the explanation.

We will try to add the following Delenda Est features:

• Cult Statues
• Mercenaries

@Sundiata The lions look quite unique. What do they have in front of them? A plate? Is there something written on them?

@Lion.Kanzen The Kushites/Sudan used/use an art style which has certain similarities to Mexican, Central and South American art. However, this is not always the case, often times they have their own unique style.

@niektb About your comment to my question about the Terra Magna integration: I think it is a good idea to merge the Kushites on long run together with Han China and the Zapotec's in one single Terra Magna mod. However, right now the best is to to work on the specification, which means to ask questions and do research to answer those questions. Interpretation is good, but it should always be based on facts and evidence. In my opinion the Kushites will be an interesting civilization to play, if and only if we are able to find those the unique characteristics which set's them apart from other civilizations surrounding them. This process will take time.

Furthermore, I believe that writing a good specification will make the implementation faster and more efficient. In addition it is better for the team constellation we have for the Kushites Mod. @Sundiata does some excellent research.

I hope that we can make a first playable Kushites Mod version for a 0 A.D. version between alpha 25 to 27.

 

 

[niektb]

Two to three years is a little long for a first playable version. I think it is doable to have on around alpha 23 or at least with alpha 24 (though, of course, it depends a bit on what your understanding of a 'first playable version' is)

I agree with the rest of your comment though

[Lion.Kanzen]

I'm not sure with that feature from DE. I prefer Iberian cult feature. 

[Tomcelmare]

@balduin You're not very optimistic! I'm pretty sure Lordgood will have finished all structures within two or three months. As for the units, there's already the ptolemaic nubian archer, and considering all the resources at the team's disposal, I don't think it's impossible to have a first playable version within six months  (But maybe I'm too optimistic...)

Edited February 14, 2017 by Tomcelmare

[LordGood]

Cult statues require a new resource. As far as Terra Magna is concerned, it only hosts vanilla compatible mods, without changing core mechanics, incompatible with DE for sure with its glory resource, different templates, and expanded tech tree.

Merging early with Terra Magna will prevent sloppy integration and ease updating between vanilla alpha versions, furthermore without the Terra Magna 'expansion' individual mods will get less traffic, and many people uninterested with the Kingdom of Kush will not be exposed through a shared interest with a Chinese or Mesoamerican mod.

From a position as a creator of what are basically 4 mod civs, and as a vanilla artist, i will say unnecessary division absolutely will slow things down.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Listen to Lordgood. Integrate now, if that is the decision. Also, cult statues can be eye candy objects for your mod if you want, but he's right, that they actually use a new 5th resource. So, if you want these civs to be as Vanilla-ish as possible, then true cult statue is out.

 

 

[Sundiata]

@balduin Depending on many factors, the development could take anywhere from several months, to several years. Our job is to try and get it done in a good time, without necessarily rushing it. That having said, most of the relevant and reliable visual references for the Kushites are already posted in the forum. With further follow up questions and research, we could definitely flesh out some more of the details, but a lot has already been linked. If LordGood continues to work even at half the speed he is know, we'll be sure to see major progress in the next months. Also, don't forget that most of the structures follow a certain template, within which the specific features of a civ are demonstrated. There are certain paramaters, to keep buildings recognizable, and in line with analogue buildings of other civs. It compromises historical accuracy to some extent, but it keeps the game playable. So some interpretation is unavoidable (even preferable), as long as it is within reasonable limits. There are also very few pop-culture references for these people, which I believe is actually a good thing, in terms of accurately depicting them. We won't fall for the trap of stereotyping them too much, because there aren't many stereotypes about the Kushites (most people only know them from written references). For example, the battering ram will be an interpretation of scant references. And many of the units are going to have to be historically reconstructed from what we know, although Total War modders have already done a great job at that (which means we don't need to stress too much about how units looked). I'll try to contact the department of history in the University of Khartoum, or some Nubian and Cushitic language experts to determine some realistic names for buildings and units. 

Furthermore, I have no objection to the Kushites being rolled into Terra Magna and Delenda Est. Seems like a logical choice…

Also, I like cult statues, and something like the Iberian cult statue feature would fit well. Statues were a symbol of physical and spiritual power and wealth to the Kushites, and they would have fought fiercely to protect them. 

@balduin the chest of the lion on the left and middle, is decorated with stylised manes (or jewelry?) with a cartouche at the height of it's throat, inscribed with hieroglyphs probably mentioning who commissioned them, or which god they're dedicated to (or both). 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Sundiata

[feneur]

I might have missed it as I haven't read this thread very closely, but what is it that makes the Kushites special from a game play perspective?

[LordGood]

@Sundiata @balduin I would find the most prominent Kushite-specific techs (ie. I would consider a metal mining passive bonus to emphasize their massive metalworking industry.) and one or two "special buildings". One of those special buildings could be a "cult statue" though I would think Justus would want the freedom to define that template himself in DE

for example, the Carthaginians get triple wall health, and they get embassies and Cothons as special buildings

Zapotecs have an infantry speed and melee attack bonus at the cost of armor, and they have a ball court special building (or they should, its modelled but doesn't have an entity behind it yet)

I would ask not to be too ambitious, but to boil it down to one or two traits that can be easily balanced with vanilla civs.

[balduin]

@feneur First of all the Kushites are an African culture, for some people this is important. Second, the Kushites had good archers and cavalry. Third, there art style is different.

For more information about strengh and weaknesses of the kushites have a look at "Strength and Weaknesses" in our specification : https://github.com/Jeeppler/kushites_mod/raw/master/docs/build/specification.pdf

@wowgetoffyourcellphone @LordGood I would like to discuss the integration in a separate thread (topic). It would be the best to discuss that in the "Terra Magna" mod forum/section. Are the topics for the "Terra Magna" mod still in the Rise of the East forum or do you have your own sub forum for that mod?

Regarding Delenda Est integration and other stuff. The priorities are:

1. Kushite Mod compatible to vanilla game

2. Compatibility with the Terra Magna mod

3. Integration with the Terra Magna mod

4. Possible integration with Delenda Est.

@LordGood Coming back to the topic of reviewing the Barrack, Storehouse and Farmstead. Did you do any changes or improvements on those buildings? We would be really eager to see them and discuss them again. If there are done I can mark them as modeled and include the pictures in the specification. This way we can move forward with the development of the Kushites mod :-)

@wowgetoffyourcellphone In the JSON file you posted you mentioned the following sound files:

• "The_Blue_Nile.ogg"
• "Kandake's_Dance.ogg"
• "The_Tombs_of_Our_Fathers.ogg"
• "Our_Sacred_Mountain.ogg"

do those files exists or are those files just placeholders? Where can I find the files? Where can I find the JSON file?

@Sundiata I agree it would be very important to have proper names for all those buildings. Asking the University of Khartoum for help is an awesome idea. It would be really nice to include them into the list of contributors. Maybe they are also able to help us to answer some of the questions about the Kingdom of Kush or help us out with images. :-)

@Sundiata What kind of hieroglyphs? Egyptian or Meroitic? With other words, is there a translation available?