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Wondering how many frames per hour UE5 might give for our average hardware

Hey everyone, I am creating this thread to discuss the balancing from a "meta" perspective in hopes to improve the current situation. Please refrain from discussing "actual" balancing in this thread. As some of you may know, it has been a priority of mine for the past three years to find a way to provide a good experience for players, whether they are on the competitive side or not. For the 24th Alpha I created a Personal Mail (PM) with a few individuals, in order to try to create a team-like cohesion. While the 24th Alpha was a game changer in a lot of ways, and a painful experience, I do believe that it was the most productive in terms of actual patches and changes. People played by the rules by proposing, creating, and accepting patches (I insist on the last part because without formal acceptance there is no liability). I also tried to leverage a documentation team to update the design document. The job was too hard, and it died quickly and in silence. The original design was somewhat different from what the current game is today. There would have been much less civilizations, and instead your empire would have switched from a generic civilization to a more specific one (e.g greek -> macedon -> seleucid). Then another era came, where everything changed. Meanwhile, I was not happy about doing things in the shadows. This whole project is a community effort, and the contributors of today are the ones that might carry the flame when I am gone. So after a few internal discussions we came up with the balancing subforum, where everyone could see what was going on behind the curtains but only a selected few could interract, and anyone could ask me for a seat at the table, with some relevant experience. It came with little titles that hoped would boost morale. However... It did not go as I(we) planned. It created an even bigger split in the community, resulted in a huge variety of threads which is good, but which led nowhere as none of the idea was accepted enough to be implemented. And even the ideas who did get implemented did not make it. While the Personal Mail (PM) did go off track from time to times, it had the advantage of notifying people everytime someone posted (I do not think many people use that forum feature for threads) and I think the discussion was more focused, people pinging each other for patch reviews etc... There was also an attempt to use the chat on Phabricator which also sends emails for each messages, but it quickly vanished after the 24th Alpha. The 25th Alpha got some welcomed changes, at a much slower rate, and I think it fixed a lot of the quirks Alpha 24 introduced. But we're not quite there yet, and I know a few people are hurt about the current state of the game. I'm not a fan of the current balancing forums, and I'd like to merge them again with the rest of the game discussions, or at least to open them, since there seem to be no point in having them closed anymore. So I'm asking everyone, what can we (as in Wildfire Games) do, to get more contributions about balancing, to make A26 a success. We have some very nasty release blockers, and that leaves time for a bit more balancing patches. Best regards, Stan

This could be good, but I think k/d ratio is better off as a standalone statistic. In the value ratio I suggested, the player who only lost 100 units would have a higher value ratio because the 100 units likely cost less. I think it is perfectly acceptable to win even with a low KD.

I just watched this video about why aoe2 is more popular than aoe3 and one reason discussed is the worse unit motion in aoe3 particular through a snare effect. Not sure if it is the same as you had in mind but something to consider. @5:40

Any hero that can be produced in the CC can be produced sooner. Currently, by the time you make the building for the hero, and then make the hero, the big p3 fight is starting. If you can train the hero from the CC then maybe you can at least get a little eco benefit before all your soldiers go to fight. I know I would try it.

At the very least, I think this should be the case for eco and building bonus heroes, like Pericles (Athenians), Xerxes (Persians), Britomaros (Gauls), and Ashoka the Great (Mauryans). It would tempt more people to make them. Well, maybe not Pericles so much, but...anyways. I don't understand why Ptols and Seleucids only should have this bonus in terms of balance.

I think the player killing the 400 enemies performs better. Strength is how much trouble your opponents can throw while they are still unable to take you out.

I wonder if it might be possible to have a military score that incorporated kill:death ratio into the score. Say you get an increasing # of bonus points for having an increasingly positive ratio. In 1v1 games, it wouldn't make a difference. But for team games, esp. 4v4, it would do a lot more to show that a player who kills 400 units and loses 350 did a lot worse than a player who kills 375 units and loses 100. Whereas now the worse player gets the higher military score.

Thing is we already have temples, so another unique healing station while nice for eye candy will simply be redundant, also not really relevant to the function, a stronger fit is to tie a health bonus to the building because cleanliness means less disease so healthier people. Also they usually had gymnasiums attached. So a health bonus overall seems most appropriate.

I think it would be nice to introduce some features that represent the culture of certain factions. An idea would be the Roman bathhouses. The in game effect could be similar to the technology living condition where garrisoned units regain HP.

That doesn't look like compost to me. Maybe more like this:

All attacks are the transfer kinetic energy to a target so the main variables are mass and velocity, armor is just something that defects or absorbs that energy going back to first principles can be clarifying. Enjot the Choice

His view is the minority, I believe. But there are also units that some would call "Medium" who perform both melee and skirmishing roles, example: Thureophoros.

maybe the chariot units could get an accuracy reduction if in motion.

I hardly find the error messages helpful, but yours is a new level of unhelpful. Can you upload the crashlog.txt and crashlog.dmp files? (You may find paths to these files at https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/GameDataPaths )

Here's my suggested unit balancing/countering paradigm revamp Terminology: Line Unit The base unit for this type (Melee Infantry, Ranged Infantry, Cavalry) Will counter one of the other types in a simple rock-paper-scissors Counter Unit This unit counters other units of its own type. Specialized Unit Breaks the counter methodology in some specialized way. Infantry Spear Line Unit Attack: Medium Armor: Medium Speed: Medium Bonus vs. Cavalry Countered by: Infantry Sword, Infantry Archer Infantry Pike Line Unit Attack: Medium Armor: Medium Speed: Medium Bonus vs. Cavalry "Snare" status effect which very briefly reduces the speed of hit enemy units Countered by: Infantry Sword, Infantry Archer Infantry Sword Counter Unit Attack: High Armor: Low Speed: High Bonus vs. Melee Infantry Countered by: Infantry Archer, Infantry Sword Infantry Archer Line Unit Attack: Medium Armor: Medium Speed: Medium Bonus vs. Infantry Infantry Slinger Counter Unit Attack: Medium Armor: Low Speed: High Bonus vs. Ranged Infantry Countered by: Cavalry Spear Infantry Javelineer Specialized Unit Attack: High Armor: Low Speed: Medium Bonus vs. Ranged Cavalry (incl. Chariots) and War Elephants Countered by: Cavalry Spear Cavalry Spearman Line Unit Attack: Medium Armor: Medium Speed: Medium Bonus vs. Ranged Infantry Countered by: Infantry Spear, Infantry Pike, Cavalry Sword Cavalry Swordsman Counter Unit Attack: Medium Armor: Medium Speed: High Bonus vs. Cavalry Countered by: Infantry Spear, Infantry Pike, Cavalry Sword Cavalry Archer Specialized Unit Attack: Medium Armor: Low Speed: High No bonus, but has a "kiting" effect which frustrates melee units Countered by: Infantry Javelineer, Cavalry Swordsman Cavalry Javelineer Specialized Unit Attack: Medium Armor: Low Speed: High Bonus vs. Support Units (Female Citizens, Traders, Healers) Countered by: Infantry Javelineer, Cavalry Swordsman War Elephant Specialized Unit Attack: High Armor: High Speed: Medium-Low Bonus vs. Cavalry, Gates Splash Hack damage Countered by: Infantry Javelineer, Bolt Shooter "Fear" aura Chariot Mixin for Cavalry Adds +100% health +75% resource cost, +1 pop cost, -10% speed Greater accuracy for the Bowman/Javelineer Bowman/Javelineer can independently target nearby enemies Trample Damage aura Cataphract Mixin for Cavalry Adds +2 hack and +2 pierce armor +50% metal cost, -10% speed Extra attack range, since they use the longer cavalry lance Trample Damage aura Camel Mixin for Cavalry +10% health -10% speed "Stench" aura vs. Horse Cavalry (Reduces Horse Cavalry effectiveness) Axe/Mace Mixin for Sword units +25% metal cost Small Bonus vs. Structures Champions +25% health +25% attack +50% cost Heroes +500% health +200% attack +400% cost Specialized Auras Catapult Buildable in the field by soldiers after constructing an Arsenal, build limit 5 per Arsenal Capturable Attack: High Armor: Medium Speed: Low Bonus vs. Structures, extra bonus vs. Fortress Countered by: Melee Units, Bolt Shooter Battering Ram Trained at the Arsenal; Buildable by soldiers in the field after researching a tech Not Capturable Attack: High Armor: High Speed: Low Bonus vs. Structures, extra bonus vs. Walls and Gates Countered by: Melee Units, Bolt Shooter Bolt Shooter Counter Unit Trained at the Arsenal Capturable Attack: Medium Armor: Low Speed: Low Bonus vs. Siege Engines, Good against Infantry due to having Pierce attack Countered by: Melee Cavalry, other Bolt Shooters Siege Tower Buildable in the field by soldiers after constructing an Arsenal, build limit 1 per Arsenal Not Capturable Attack: Medium Armor: High Speed: Low Capture Bonus vs. Structures, increases for each unit Garrisoned Countered by: Melee Units, Bolt Shooter

Babylon's Fall would be happy to have the player numbers of BS2024. ^^

The public baths were more representative of Roman concepts of social life, such as egalitarianism and civic participation in politics. But it's not very suitable for medical technology, because the sanitary conditions of public bathrooms are not as good as we think, and for those injured by weapons, public bathrooms often lead to bacterial infection of wounds.

The Numindians provided elephants to Rome in the Second Celtiberian War. So the Romans had sources of elephants, but they did not focus on elephants corps.

It has nothing to do with intelligence or something. If I express it in Chinese, this is what it says——我认为这是有违现实的认识，而且基于此的设计不会让游戏更有趣。与其单纯给剑盾手对其他步兵的加成，应当让它作为一种灵活的步兵，去包抄敌人的侧翼、攻击敌人的远程步兵，这样战斗会更加动态，更考验玩家的操作——而这正是指挥战斗的乐趣所在。 并且这样的设计也不是没有先例可循，帝国时代3里有一个“轻步兵”标签，被给予少林寺的藤牌手（Rattan Shield）和阿兹特克的土狼游击兵（Coyote Runner），这些步兵擅长攻击弓箭手、炮兵，但又会被长枪手克制。

You must remember that, he expresses himself in his language and that he is from a different culture.

I agree that a bonus against infantry is not needed in this case as there is already the damage advantage that swords have. Perhaps it is because people want to have a game and not a historical military simulation. I would not denigrate the people who have worked on the game far longer than you and who made those decisions about units. You are also quick to assume anyone with a differing opinion holds that opinion because of some mental deficiency. You seem to be ok that soldiers are born out of the barracks, so I don't see why this makes you so upset. Gameplay can't be reduced to waves of spearmen poking each other to death just because it is more realistic. @wowgetoffyourcellphoneI look forward to testing these changes if I can.

@user1 is there still a rating bug in A25 ? Nikolozi_20042 has resigned but rating was not updated. just asking. not a big problem. wondering a bit. commands.txt metadata.json

I do not recommend defining a swordsman as a "soldier who is more adept at melee combat", generally speaking, swordsmen are not opponents of spearmen, whether in formation or one-on-one combat. Spearmen usually also wear a sword as a backup weapon. Swordsmen are largely "soldiers who can't use spears proficiently but can only use swords", and in reality they are generally able to use more dispersed formations and more flexible Soldiers", swordsmen should run faster than spearmen, thus flanking the enemy and threatening their ranged infantry. The prejudice that swordsmen are more powerful than spearmen usually comes from the Middle Ages, when swordsmen were often knights who chose to dismount to fight, these warriors were not powerful because they used swords, but because they were more trained and better armored .

In that example, the snare effects the entire formation. I think in 0 A.D. it'll only affect the target unit. It would also only be a pikeman thing.

Taking POW's is still something I would like to try out some time.

Indeed, polearms could have the "snare" effect that makes their enemies move a little slower for a brief time. An effect not given by swords or shorter spears.

Some materials resist tensile forces but not shear forces, such as Kevlar body armor that resists bullets but not daggers.

sometimes it tries to be a hybrid rts. To keep innovation( not to be an free AOE clone only) while giving satisfaction of base building.

And we are past that stage. We did not like the results.

It should be said that it was his publication of this book in 1987 that influenced the popular online opinion, and in fact Age of Empires 3 applied this set of standards. But I don't recommend this division, because his point of view implies an idea that armor is related to function, for example, shooters are usually forced to use shooting weapons because they don't have armor. But in reality, on the one hand, because of the hot weather, warriors in Southeast Asia would choose not to wear shirts and armor and use swords to fight. The Mongolian, Safavid, and Chinese Cataphracts also made archery a top-priority attack. The division between light and heavy is largely outdated these days, and the Total War game is a prime example.

Indeed, in Western military tradition, "Light" and "Heavy" had less to do with armor than with the unit's role. Light = ranged/skirmishing, Heavy = melee.

I think it would be useful to have an audio/visual alert for advancing rams/elephants. These types of units seem to do the most damage and it would be useful to be told in advance. Many a time I have been concentrating on one area of the map only to find these units running amok the other side and wiping out my base or castles . Having the ability to toggle on/off these alerts to suit your setup would be useful.

The army of the early Roman Empire consisted of two parts, one part was the infantry made up of Roman citizens. The other part is the vassal state, with archers, cavalry, etc. If there are elephants, it should be provided by this part of the people, but obviously Ethiopians are not included, so no one can provide elephants to the Romans. In addition, the relationship between the Romans and the Amazigh people is not very good, and the trade routes are not very smooth. It is very common to buy a few elephants as pets, but it is still very difficult to form a large-scale war elephant force.

The thing is, javelineers usually never range the horse archers. Javelineer inf are already highly effective at beating horse archers without the counter if the horse archers don't run away. This is a good example of a situation where counters don't provide a benefit to gameplay. An example of where counters would be a fantastic change: catapult bonus versus fort. ram bonus versus walls. both still do good dmg versus houses, production buildings, ccs ect.

In other words, the innate properties of the units (armor, speed, dps, cost, range) should be enough for unit differentiation. I like the idea of adding some bonuses/debuffs to the current matchup between units, like cav debuff for palisades, or catapult buff to fortress, but I dislike rock-paper-scissors balance.

Perhaps, this is the best way to do those "anti building" units. Since you gave swordsmen a speed boost in your run-down, perhaps clubs/axes would not get that speed and instead be the same speed as other melee inf. I like these ideas and would be happy to participate in testing for them if it were a mod. Although I am a bit concerned about the extensive use of counters. Counters are great for particular unit roles, but I am not sure about creating particular roles out of originally multipurpose units, few civs get all of those basic units, so the problems of not having a counter would be very frequent. I also like the idea of champions not being massively powerful but closer to the skiritai cost/power proportion. Not sure how I feel about the population amounts, if it were implemented we would probably want to adjust house occupancy size and start using a bigger pop size in games. I do think pop capacity is an under-utilized balancing tool though. I also think a 1 population size for women and traders compared to 2 for inf would cause them to dominate eco in all games, turning matches into raid-offs. kiting effect sounds OP and/or artificial. I think people cause enough frustration with manual control of those.

Slingers having Crush damage has always been super sus to me. Sling stones are not siege weapons. There's just this odd hate for attack bonuses, so attack types get messed with to try to add something interesting. Clubs, etc. just give them a bonus vs. buildings or something. Giving them a crush attack now applies it against everything they attack.

Sorry, here's a picture.

yes it's the same , to avoid slinger rush like A24.

like AoE III canon have this damage. Siege attack is the damage a unit deals to buildings. http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,23165,15510,all

I think there should be, crush, pierce, hack and siege. Siege would be any overwhelming attack, beyond human force.

Custom camera.

Sheeesh. THE BUG IS REPORTED. Why do you always have to bug the devs?

https://store.epicgames.com/en-US/p/insurmountable-b02c31 Free until 21.04.2022 at 5:00 PM https://store.epicgames.com/en-US/p/xcom-2 Free until 21.04.2022 at 5:00 PM

sounds like a good idea to me.

@OrangeBiggie Also upload relevant replays and tag user1

Ideas for cartography Public domain. Ptolemy world map.

Also thinking about population costs. I was thinking something like: Support Units 1 pop Infantry 2 pop Cavalry 3 pop Elephants, Rams, Chariots 4 pop Catapults, Siege Towers 5 pop Small House 100 wood +10 pop cap Large House 150 wood +15 pop cap