Changing boat fighting

[Darkcity]

Current boat fighting i think can be improved a lot. Right now it works same as siege tower in water. 2 features which I think are feasible can be added.

Option 1:

1. Visible garrsion: It should be visible how many units are there on boat: Some one has already developed this mod of visible garrsion.
2. Attackable units: Units should be attackable. This is work same as walls. The unit can attack other in unit in their range that means boats with archers will have higher range compared to skirmish. The defualt boat firing range will reamin as it is.
3. Unit position: Since max 10 units can add arrow to the boat. 5 units will be 1 side of the boat while 5 will be other side of the boat rest in center. Only side units can attack or can be attacked.
4. Unit Shuffling: In case units on side (attaking unit dies) then unit in center unit (no attacking unit) will occupy his space. This way all units in the boat are useful unlike present where 30 units in the boat are same as 10 on water.

Option2: 

Treat the boat area as a normal surface where garrsioned units are standing and they will attack anything in range and can be attacked. To attack the boat player has to mention sepcifically just like walls.

Advanced options

1. Reduce pop taken to 1. First 2 unit will add to boat speed. Speed logic will be current speed*x/3, where x<=2 , and is the number of units garriosned in the boat. Rest units will add to attack. So, we will have less player roaming aroung with empty boat with fast speed. 

 

This will make archers as an interetsing units on water as range will important role. The unit damage and boat speed can be balanced accordigly. 

@borg- you must have had this idea before :p? @Lion.Kanzen interesting enough? 

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

The team must include more ships( river ships) and resize current ships.

 

@wowgetoffyourcellphone He gave an interesting proposal.

[Gurken Khan]

38 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The team must include more ships( river ships) and resize current ships.

Yesterday I played on a new map, Chang Jian, and it was possible to have two way traffic on the river even next to a port. Maybe ship gameplay is improving.

Still I think ships are ridiculously big and cause problems on a lot of maps.

[Lion.Kanzen]

54 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

Yesterday I played on a new map, Chang Jian, and it was possible to have two way traffic on the river even next to a port. Maybe ship gameplay is improving.

Still I think ships are ridiculously big and cause problems on a lot of maps.

That's why I want river boats.

[Lopess]

6 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

That's why I want river boats.

It would be nice to have some limiting mechanics, preventing the training of large ships where the depth does not allow their navigation. Another cool thing would be that on the deck of the ship the infantry could be positioned.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

9 hours ago, Darkcity said:

Current boat fighting i think can be improved a lot. Right now it works same as siege tower in water. 2 features which I think are feasible can be added.

Option 1:

1. Visible garrsion: It should be visible how many units are there on boat: Some one has already developed this mod of visible garrsion.
2. Attackable units: Units should be attackable. This is work same as walls. The unit can attack other in unit in their range that means boats with archers will have higher range compared to skirmish. The defualt boat firing range will reamin as it is.
3. Unit position: Since max 10 units can add arrow to the boat. 5 units will be 1 side of the boat while 5 will be other side of the boat rest in center. Only side units can attack or can be attacked.
4. Unit Shuffling: In case units on side (attaking unit dies) then unit in center unit (no attacking unit) will occupy his space. This way all units in the boat are useful unlike present where 30 units in the boat are same as 10 on water.

Option2: 

Treat the boat area as a normal surface where garrsioned units are standing and they will attack anything in range and can be attacked. To attack the boat player has to mention sepcifically just like walls.

Advanced options

1. Reduce pop taken to 1. First 2 unit will add to boat speed. Speed logic will be current speed*x/3, where x<=2 , and is the number of units garriosned in the boat. Rest units will add to attack. So, we will have less player roaming aroung with empty boat with fast speed. 

 

This will make archers as an interetsing units on water as range will important role. The unit damage and boat speed can be balanced accordigly. 

@borg- you must have had this idea before :p? @Lion.Kanzen interesting enough? 

This would allow for a dedicated "transport ship" Basically a large ship (trireme/quinquereme model) used only for transporting armies. This would not have fighting capability.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@Darkcity

Boats should just have uniform speed with rowing crews inside, visible units on top of the ship are just for fighting

(I like option 2 the best)

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I also think there should be some additional "special ships"

The Iberian fire ship is really cool.

 

Perhaps hospital ship

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, Lopess said:

It would be nice to have some limiting mechanics, preventing the training of large ships where the depth does not allow their navigation. Another cool thing would be that on the deck of the ship the infantry could be positioned.

Raft battles. I have that fantasy.

Could you help us with that.

O @Duileoga podría diseñar balsas genéricas.

[AIEND]

The problem with this idea is how do we represent the role of those melee soldiers on the ship? In reality the warships would move closer to each other and let the soldiers jump on the enemy's ship to fight hand-to-hand. Melee soldiers are more effective than shooters at this time, but this is not possible now.
Also if I put a cavalry archer in the boat, will it get off the horse and fight on deck like an infantry archer?

[Obelix]

On 06/07/2022 at 4:28 AM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Perhaps hospital ship

Temple ships?

Would be great if garrisoned priests would heal other garrisoned units.

Otherwise there could be a research option in temples, successing the research of the "heart", to let garrisoned troops be healed automatically in every ship.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Obelix said:

Temple ships?

Would be great if garrisoned priests would heal other garrisoned units.

Otherwise there could be a research option in temples, successing the research of the "heart", to let garrisoned troops be healed automatically in every ship.

This is a very good idea.

[Loki1950]

The concept of hospitals did not exist until the middle ages in a few Arabic states the idea reached Europe during the Crusades with the creation of several orders of knights calling themselves Hospitallers who set up refuges on routes to Palestine.

Enjoy the Choice

Edited September 1, 2022 by Loki1950

[AIEND]

12 小时前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

这是一个很好的主意。

Indeed, instead of emphasizing the hospital, it is better to emphasize the doctor, whichever ship the doctor arrives at, or enters a building facility, the ship or the building should have the ability to treat the garrison.

[Grapjas]

16 hours ago, Obelix said:

Would be great if garrisoned priests would heal other garrisoned units.

This is what i did with Grapejuice, and also removed their fantasy heal on the battlefield.

[Philip the Swaggerless]

One of the things I find frustrating with naval maps is that you have to meticulously garrison your soldiers onto different boats.  It would be nice if there was a button that functioned kind of like the town bell, but triggered from the boats. 

1. Select a boat or boats
2. Press a "board boats" button in the gui panel.
3. Nearby military units evenly distribute themselves onto the boats.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Philip the Swaggerless

[Adeimantos]

Lots of good ideas in this thread, here's a few more.

Ships should have a 'boarding' command, or there should be a type of ship that does this as its standard attack: it pulls alongside an enemy ship, allowing the melee units on board to attack those on the other ship, and when that is done, to capture it.

Ramming.

More use of catapult ships and fire ships (every ship could have the option of being converted into a fire ship, dealing damage until it destroys itself.)

[Lion.Kanzen]

22 minutes ago, Adeimantos said:

Ships should have a 'boarding' command, or there should be a type of ship that does this as its standard attack: it pulls alongside an enemy ship, allowing the melee units on board to attack those on the other ship, and when that is done, to capture it.

The problem is how to do it technically.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

One of the things I find frustrating with naval maps is that you have to meticulously garrison your soldiers onto different boats.  It would be nice if there was a button that functioned kind of like the town bell, but triggered from the boats. 

1. Select a boat or boats
2. Press a "board boats" button in the gui panel.
3. Nearby military units evenly distribute themselves onto the boats.

This could be good, but I think we should avoid adding too many UI buttons/mass action hotkeys. For example, there was also a discussion for some button to garrison all barracks evenly.

There is a pretty simple way to do this with the alt or option hotkey, ordering one unit at a time out of a selection to do something. So select 30 or so units, hold option/alt and click each boat that should be garrisoned until no more units are in the selection. (similar to sniping method).

I think would it be ideal to decrease the garrison space of fighting boats to 10-20 depending on the ship, and add a dedicated transport ship. This way you would only need to garrison a few units for effective ship battles

Edited October 28, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Lion.Kanzen]

27 minutes ago, Adeimantos said:

 

Ramming.

 

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/305

here is a ticket.

20 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The problem is how to do it technically.

 

It is planned.

4 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

This could be good, but I think we should avoid adding too many UI buttons/mass action hotkeys. For example, there was also a discussion for some button to garrison all barracks evenly.

There is a pretty simple way to do this with the alt or option hotkey, ordering one unit at a time out of a selection to do something. So select 30 or so units, hold option/alt and click each boat that should be garrisoned until no more units are in the selection. (similar to sniping method).

I think would it be ideal to decrease the garrison space of fighting boats to 10-20 depending on the ship, and add a dedicated transport ship.

I already added it to the buttons / commands post.

[Philip the Swaggerless]

1 minute ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

This could be good, but I think we should avoid adding too many UI buttons/mass action hotkeys. For example, there was also a discussion for some button to garrison all barracks evenly.

As someone who enjoys playing a variety of maps, it's a pain point for me.  TheNaval/Mixed maps could use this help.  The alt/click method is cumbersome when you're not even in the action yet, you're just trying to get off the beach.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

yes, I think a naval overhaul in general should be in the works for a27, probably starting with some ship classes instead of just bigger = better. Ideally naval combat should be more diverse (different ships with different qualities), easier to handle like @Philip the Swaggerless said.

light, heavy, siege, transport, special

where special includes the fireship and maybe the ptol juggernaut.

from there we could balance things, add a couple new "special" ships, and maybe implement some ship mechanics of interest.

Edited October 28, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Lion.Kanzen]

don't forget to open tickets for discussions of planned features.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

ok, if we did a "ram attack," one could make ram damage proportional (by some function to balance) to the speed of the ship. I think it would also have to be in the form of an technology for some mediterranean civs (which imparts an added metal cost). I think it should also only be possible for certain ship classes, perhaps only triremes, ie ships of the "heavy" class for the following reasons. 1) biremes would probably be too light to ram well, 2)siege ships are too valuable to use this way, 3) most importantly, players need to be able to anticipate what ships can ram them.

Unfortunately, that probably means the ships that have access to rams would need a version of the model with a visible ram. <- maybe its not worth it, idk.

[Lion.Kanzen]

21 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Unfortunately, that probably means the ships that have access to rams would need a version of the model with a visible ram. <- maybe its not worth it,

I think most boats have the ram included.