Differentiating Civilizations: Sparta

[Stan`]

4 hours ago, borg- said:

reat idea, although I don't know if it's possible with the current code, but it also shouldn't be something complex and big to do

You have to change entity limits for the spartan player I think. Should be a simple template edit.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The 2 hero thing is possible, it's just odd to have Leonidas and Agis III acting as the two "kings." It'd work better if heroes were genericized. 

[alre]

20 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The 2 hero thing is possible, it's just odd to have Leonidas and Agis III acting as the two "kings."

why? because they are not contemporary? it is said that part of the beauty of the game is that it allows factions who never met to encounter in fight, wouldn't be nice too to have two great kings of Sparta fight alongside?

attention must be paid to balance though.

[Genava55]

The other solution is that training Leonidas bring immediately another king (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leotychidas_II), the same with Agis III (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleomenes_II). While Brasidas (not being a king but a general) wouldn't bring a new one.

The other king could have a generic model.

Or, the two kings system could be simply a bonus if the hero dies the player got a large discount for the next one.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

24 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

The other solution is that training Leonidas bring immediately another king (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leotychidas_II), the same with Agis III (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleomenes_II). While Brasidas (not being a king but a general) wouldn't bring a new one.

The other king could have a generic model.

Or, the two kings system could be simply a bonus if the hero dies the player got a large discount for the next one.

Or you can train each Spartan king twice instead of once.

[Lion.Kanzen]

the second king must be administrative.

[Outis]

17 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The 2 hero thing is possible, it's just odd to have Leonidas and Agis III acting as the two "kings." It'd work better if heroes were genericized. 

Only one king is allowed to lead the army in battle since shortly before the Persian Wars. We do not hear much about the co-kings of famous Spartan kings, probably they are overshadowed by their more famous counterparts.

9 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

the second king must be administrative.

Maybe there can be a unique technology called Second King with unique bonuses for the hero trained?

[Freagarach]

The "main" king can recruit its counterpart? (once, obviously)

[borg-]

1 hour ago, Freagarach said:

The "main" king can recruit its counterpart? (once, obviously)

It would be really fun for every hero to recruit their administrative king. Administrative kings would have economy aura while combat kings would have combat aura. For this though we need some additional modelds. Maybe in the short time the idea of being able to train two heroes at the same time is more interesting.

 

[Outis]

12 minutes ago, borg- said:

It would be really fun for every hero to recruit their administrative king. Administrative kings would have economy aura while combat kings would have combat aura. For this though we need some additional modelds. Maybe in the short time the idea of being able to train two heroes at the same time is more interesting.

 

Is the presence of the co-king necessary on the map? I was imagining him to sit in the Gerousia. Hence the proposal to include it as a tech rather than a unit.

Speaking of Gerousia, I think it would be great to include the building in the game. The model is already there...

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

17 minutes ago, borg- said:

It would be really fun for every hero to recruit their administrative king. Administrative kings would have economy aura while combat kings would have combat aura. For this though we need some additional modelds. Maybe in the short time the idea of being able to train two heroes at the same time is more interesting.

 

I can whip up an "Administrative King" actor very quickly.

[Outis]

Another proposal:

Helots lose the ability to advance rank with experience, and

Introduce a technology pair:

1) Krypteia: Helots have (slightly) increased gather rates

Or

2) Neodamodeis: Helots gain the ability to advance rank with experience

The idea is to give the choice of either having better economy to support the production of the best infantry in the game or to have more variety in the military

[Outis]

6 minutes ago, Outis said:

Another proposal:

Helots lose the ability to advance rank with experience, and

Introduce a technology pair:

1) Krypteia: Helots have (slightly) increased gather rates

Or

2) Neodamodeis: Helots gain the ability to advance rank with experience

The idea is to give the choice of either having better economy to support the production of the best infantry in the game or to have more variety in the military

Background:

Krypteia was a practice (details not certain) to instill fear in the helots to discourage rebellion and maintain their social status as slaves. Neodamodes (pl. Neodamodeis) is the name given to the class of former helots who are given certain freedoms in exchange for military service. This was necessary due to the declining manpower.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

5 hours ago, borg- said:

It would be really fun for every hero to recruit their administrative king. Administrative kings would have economy aura while combat kings would have combat aura. For this though we need some additional modelds. Maybe in the short time the idea of being able to train two heroes at the same time is more interesting.

There are a couple obstacles to that from a historical perspective.  First, kings had little authority outside of military matters.  Of course they did sit in the Gerousia, but Ephors were much more influential.  The second problem relates to the heroes used.  Brasidas is not a king.  The simplest option would be to introduce two kinds of heroes: Eurypontid and Agaiad, and have two or three of each.  The player could train one as the primary dynasty, and the second one could be unlocked via technology.  

 

On 27/6/2022 at 10:02 AM, borg- said:

Change your cost too? Spartans didn't produce siege? Which civ did they buy from?

The Spartans did besiege cities, but this was usually done by building siege walls (Take the siege of Plataea).  The ram is an adequate way of represent their less than creative means of taking cities.  

I appreciate your advocating for Spartans being available at phase 1.  I would, however, encourage two suggestions that I have made in a previous thread: make them free albeit with a long training time, costing 2 population, and limiting the number of Syssita to 1 +1 per next phase.  This would encourage Spartan production yet make it extremely difficult to mass.

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Of course they did sit in the Gerousia, but Ephors were much more influential.  The second problem relates to the heroes used.  Brasidas is not a king.  The simplest option would be to introduce two kinds of heroes: Eurypontid and Agaiad, and have two or three of each.  The player could train one as the primary dynasty, and the second one could be unlocked via technology

This. This very good idea.

[Outis]

6 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

This would encourage Spartan production yet make it extremely difficult to mass.

Putting some measure to limit the number of Spartans is a great idea because the main problem of Sparta was that the number of the Spartiates declined over time due to losses and debt. Their numbers could not be restored due to the rigid social structure.

[borg-]

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I can whip up an "Administrative King" actor very quickly.

Yes pls.

[borg-]

Well what do we have for now:

- Spartiates are trained in phase 1. The suggestion of being free but very slow to train or a limit max of units is interesting

- Spartiates has upgraded to royal guard, costing a lot of metal/food, but gaining a good amount of health and attack. Max of 10 / 20 units

- Sissítia phase 1

- Gerusia returns to the game in phase 1

- Helot skimisher has less attack than other skirmishers in the game, but a technology available in gerusia (krypteia) allows helots to harvest grains much faster

- New movement speed technology for champion infantry

- Each Spartan hero will be able to train an administrative hero or if possible with the current codes, train both at the same time

- Sparta abre train helots slingers. Less attack than other slingers in the game, krypteia affects slingers too

- Each barracks built gets two hoplites

- Change team bonus. Allies gain an amount of gold per second and territorial gain.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, borg- said:

- New movement speed technology for champion infantry

perhaps just melee inf in general?

[chrstgtr]

My two cents and some suggestions for improvement:

2 hours ago, borg- said:

- Each Spartan hero will be able to train an administrative hero or if possible with the current codes, train both at the same time

Sounds like fun

2 hours ago, borg- said:

- Each barracks built gets two hoplites

I like this a lot too. Very unique and helpful. 

2 hours ago, borg- said:

- Change team bonus. Allies gain an amount of gold per second and territorial gain.

I'm not a fan of getting rid of things that work and this seems like a change just for change's sake. I don't see anything wrong with the current bonus, which is very useful but not OP. 

The gold proposal also sounds very difficult to make useful without being OP. If the trickle is high enough to eliminate a need to gather metal for p2 techs then the bonus will probably be OP. If the bonus isn't strong enough to do that then it will provide almost no benefit. If you want to include some gold proposal then providing some gold discount for techs seems much easier to balance and more useful. 

3 hours ago, borg- said:

Helot skimisher has less attack than other skirmishers in the game

3 hours ago, borg- said:

Sparta abre train helots slingers. Less attack than other slingers in the game, krypteia affects slingers too

Not a fan of deviating from standard stats for common units. It makes the game more difficult to learn and harder to balance.

If so desired, I would introduce differences in the form of techs like "grain gather +20%; attack -10%"

3 hours ago, borg- said:

- Spartiates . . .  being free but very slow to train or a limit max of units is interesting

This seems really difficult to balance. Making them free seems it could make them very easy to spam and OP (i.e., build three extra houses at very start and train 30 Spartiates so that at min 6 you have an unbeatable army--enemies also can't do anything to stop this type of spam bc it just requires time, which no rush can stop). If the training is super slow then I don't think anyone will bother to train them because they will take up too much pop space without providing any benefit. 

My suggestion is that we create an alternate way to make spartiates. All history texts tell us that Spartan citizens used to train all the time to becomes spartiates. Why don't we create a male citizen that does nothing but can train himself into a spartiate. This way the male citizen just takes up space and resources (I would set cost to 50 food) while being vulnerable to attack. This would provide a new, unique, and cheap way to get champs. But this also avoids the "too easy to mass" problem because they will be super vulnerable while "training" out in the open and the loss would costly.

[Stan`]

2 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

this a lot too. Very unique and helpful. 

5 hours ago, borg- said:

 

2 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Each barracks built gets two hoplites

@Freagarach Not sure that's supported?

[Freagarach]

Where are the slaves for Sparta? They are also known for those? (Although I'd rather have slaves for all civs who employed them and some bonus for some civs.)

37 minutes ago, Stan` said:

@Freagarach Not sure that's supported?

Nope, it isn't.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

14 hours ago, borg- said:

- Spartiates are trained in phase 1. The suggestion of being free but very slow to train or a limit max of units is interesting

- Spartiates has upgraded to royal guard, costing a lot of metal/food, but gaining a good amount of health and attack. Max of 10 / 20 units

- Sissítia phase 1

what about just giving sparta an additional, more costly house available in p1 or 2, providing 20 pop, and also allowing 1 spartiate to be trained? Perhaps it could be 2 or 3.

The point is, tying early production to the special houses (someone said estates) makes it kind of a "soft" limit. I would argue that champion spearmen should still be trained by the current training building in p3 without a limit.

Balance wise, the biggest challenge for sparta is mobility, so some movement speed upgrade for melee units, or some movement speed hero would be perfect for the civ.

Edited June 30, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

14 hours ago, borg- said:

royal guard

also, what to call this unit? There seem to be a lot of "royal guards" it is rather generic IMO.

spartiate champion maybe is another idea.

Edited June 30, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[borg-]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

what about just giving sparta an additional, more costly house available in p1 or 2, providing 20 pop, and also allowing 1 spartiate to be trained? Perhaps it could be 2 or 3.

The point is, tying early production to the special houses (someone said estates) makes it kind of a "soft" limit. I would argue that champion spearmen should still be trained by the current training building in p3 without a limit.

Balance wise, the biggest challenge for sparta is mobility, so some movement speed upgrade for melee units, or some movement speed hero would be perfect for the civ.

If we keep him as he is now and just move to p1, then his own cost is a natural limiting factor, nothing needs to change in my opinion. You have the cost of syssitia + unit, is quite expensive for a phase 1.

Yes, I think mobility technology will be very welcome.

Edited June 30, 2022 by borg-