Differentiating Civilizations: Sparta

[borg-]

I think the topic: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/82176-differentiating-civilizations-persian/ was a success so i will continue to sparta civilization.

Well I'd like to start with a few small ideas. 
It seems to me that the Sparta civilization should be focused on its infantry and especially on its champions, which are rarely used.

 

- Sissitia moved to phase 1;

- Sissitia range aura of gathering rate on farms for citizens infantry skimishers near. Gathers like a woman, but her attack is reduced a little.

- Champions spearman can be trained on phase 1;

- Champion spearman can up to rank 2 (olympic champion). Current hoplite tradition also affects champions.

- New movement speed technology for champion infantry;

 

Well this is one of the ideas that i have at the moment, i will research more about sparta culture. I would like to hear everyone's ideas and opinion.

 

[LetswaveaBook]

34 minutes ago, borg- said:

i will continue to sparta civilization.

I think that for act of differentiating factions, Sparta has the art disadvantage. Sparta has the least amount of different units neither does it have many special buildings.

While I think we should make the most of the art currently available to us, we need to accept more art is particularly useful for making Sparta feel more unique.

[borg-]

14 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

I think that for act of differentiating factions, Sparta has the art disadvantage. Sparta has the least amount of different units neither does it have many special buildings.

While I think we should make the most of the art currently available to us, we need to accept more art is particularly useful for making Sparta feel more unique.

Sparta has gerousia and persian stoa as currently unused buildings. We could use it with some historical context.

[Genava55]

52 minutes ago, borg- said:

- Champions spearman can be trained on phase 1;

Good idea. That would be unique.

52 minutes ago, borg- said:

Champion spearman can up to rank 2 (olympic champion).

Olympic champion? Not sure if it is a proper name.

54 minutes ago, borg- said:

Well this is one of the ideas that i have at the moment, i will research more about sparta culture. I would like to hear everyone's ideas and opinion.

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Some points to maybe think about finding ways to incorporate:

 

Sparta's culture was very conservative, almost fascist (just being honest). Society was highly stratified, with the upper echelon jealously guarding its power over the lower classes. It was so difficult to enter into the upper class of society, that the number of Spartans in this class dangerously dwindled over time. By the time reforms were implemented it was too late to save the traditional order.

The entire state was designed to maintain their army of Spartiates so that they could keep their population of serfs under control. Once a Spartiate became a man, he was given an estate which came with a population of subjugated serfs (helots) who worked the estate and supported the Spartiate's life of military training (it was dishonorable for a Spartiate to work the land or work to earn money).

Women exercised like the men did, because strong mothers can bear strong sons. Strong sons can grow to be strong soldiers for the state.

Spartans did not use gold or silver currency, except to pay foreign debts (like hiring mercenaries). Internally they used an iron ingot as currency or simply bartered. Trading and other merchant activities were carried out by the Perioikoi class, the "middle" class of Spartan society, who were obligated to defend the state as hoplites, but otherwise held no political power.

The Agoge to train Spartiates from a young age was real. It had age classes and lasted until early adulthood, at which time they were required to marry a Spartan woman and begin to sire children. Spartan men who failed to complete the Agoge or who otherwise had become disgraced fell into a type of "limbo" class if landless pariahs. It was possible to regain one's honor and status, but rare.

Spartan foreign policy largely revolved around building a series of alliances as a buffer against potential enemies, culminating in the Peloponnesian League. Sparta was the clear leader of this league and compelled its members to supply troops to Spartan armies when necessary. The benefit of joining the league was stability and the protection of the Spartan army. Functionally, this was a protection racket. Spartans did not like to send their army too far afield, lest their subjugated populations and allies take the opportunity to revolt, which did happen on a number of notable occasions. 

Sparta was ruled by 2 kings, each of a specific family line. When one king was leading the army to war, the other king stayed home, so that there would always be at least one king in Sparta. The power of the kings was checked by a small council of elder Spartiates called ephors. They had the power to impeach a king for impropriety, cowardice, corruption, or blasphemy, and they exercised this power frequently over the course of their recorded history. And under the ephors was an assembly of Spartiates having reached middle age. 

The city of Sparta, like early Rome, could more accurately be described as a collection of villages scattered around a common acropolis. The city sat nestled in the middle of a long fertile plain flanked by two mountain ranges. It famously had no stone walls until Hellenistic times, but did have a palisade on occasion of national emergency, once famously built by the women of Sparta after their men were defeated by Pyrrhus of Epirus.

More to come.

Edited June 25, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

33 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Olympic champion? Not sure if it is a proper name.

I remember reading somewhere that the Spartan king was always flanked by an Olympic champion on each side when in battle array. Not sure of the source, but I have seen images depicting this, so perhaps the artists read the same thing.

 

 

[Genava55]

8 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I remember reading somewhere that the Spartan king was always flanked by an Olympic champion on each side when in battle array. Not sure of the source, but I have seen images depicting this, so perhaps the artists read the same thing.

"always flanked by" I am not sure of. But yeah athletes were considered for the royal guard.

Spoiler

 

[Dakara]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Sparta was ruled by 2 kings, each of a specific family line. When one king was leading the army to war, the other king stayed home, so that there would always be at least one king in Sparta. The power of the kings was checked by a small council of elder Spartiates called ephors. They had the power to impeach a king for impropriety, cowardice, corruption, or blasphemy, and they exercised this power frequently over the course of their recorded history. And under the ephors was an assembly of Spartiates having reached middle age. 

Think about the possibility that this civilization could have 2 heroes alive at the same time?

Somes idea :

1)Change the tech bonus phase. Phase 2: 30% to 25% expand territory and add a gain of 1 metal every 5 seconds for each ally earned.  Phase 3: +50% to 45% expand territory and gain of 2 metal every 5 seconds for each possessed ally. Sparta acts for the protection of its allies against a tax. Of course for the gameplay we are not going to steal metal from the allies.    -> If it seems too complicated a slow flow of metal in phase 2 and a medium flow in phase 3. This should not be op. light economic support to produce a ram, 2 champion or a small technology every 10 minutes of play.

My idea is that by adding buffs to civilization we find some nerf to add as well without falling into a wikipedia of bonuses and maluses.

2)Every barack built give 2 free spermen. 

3)If the changes by BORG are not accepted it will be necessary to think of buffing Sparta by the appearance of a long range unit (mercenary archer), if change of borg accepted it is necessary to keep the weakness of not having a long range unit distance.

 

4)The heroe AGIS 3 don't have bonus. IT SAD. Give him a bonus but what the bonus?

Some idea of bonus for AGIS 3. Select one.

When AGIS 3 is in garnison, all champions are train instant in this building. 

AGIS 3 is cavalery now and he give bonus speed aura in medium range at cavalery ally by 3 points.

Agis 3 stop the production of ennemy building in a medium area around him. 

Agis 3 can put a flag on map ( max 1 flag in map.) he build it instant, this flag give 5 hp to all unit of the player in medium area.

Agis 3 stop all the healing in the area around him.  Agis 3 is melee so it not op op, ennemy should put off combat Agis 3 if he want use healer. interesting combat mechanic, you have to adjust the range of the penalty aura.

 

[alre]

I have been thinking exactly about this and I have a lot of ideas.

4 hours ago, borg- said:

Champion spearman can up to rank 2 (olympic champion). Current hoplite tradition also affects champions.

If your concern is that spartan champions may be too strong in p1, but relatively weak in p3, we could just have a series of technologies for pumping them trough the ages. Greek historians give us a lot of clues for interesting technology names.

About the next ideas I'm going to share: many require coding, but I'm just brainstorming ideas, consider them as such.

Helots

Spartan women are costlier than other women (they are decent fighters) and maybe limited in number (if spartiates are also), but you can trade male helot workers, they can't defend, and are limited in a number that depends on spartiates. For instance, every new spartiate could raise the max number of helots by 2. Spartiates would be important for economy as well as for war, forcing them to be more than meatshield strategically. It would be even more fun if helots rebelled everytime the max number of them would go under the current number allowed by spartiates.

Bonuses

Civ bonus - Two kings: Spartan can have two heroes at the same time

Spartan enduring system of law established the coexistence of two kings at any time.

Team bonus - Leaders in war: all spartan heroes have effect on allies too

Spartans were regarded as war specialists in Greece and all over the world. When called to fight by allies, they were given the command.

Leonidas rework

Spearmen hero

300 Spartans: all allied melee infantry gets +20% speed, 2 pierce resistance, +2 hack resistance, +20% damage. 30m radius. This ability only works when Leonidas is engaging an enemy.

Last stand: when Leonidas is engaging an enemy, he cannot be ordered to disengage.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

4 hours ago, borg- said:

Sissitia range aura of gathering rate on farms for citizens infantry skimishers near. Gathers like a woman, but her attack is reduced a little

Some people will say this is op, but this champions in p1 will be very hard to get since there is so little eco available then.

I am a little confused about this one. if I understand it right, the skirms have a reduced attack but increased gather rate for grain around the sissitia. If I understand it correctly, it would mean that sparta can have a great defense of its fields, but up to a point where skirms are weaker than the invading force due to that negative damage part of the aura.

@borg- Since spartan hoplites have been described above as members of the ruling society rather than just military people, I wonder if it makes sense to add a house type of spartan estate to add to build limit of spartan hoplites.

Spartan estate would be a place where spartan hoplites could gain xp at a faster rate and become an Olympic Champion. The estate could cost 80 wood 50 metal to offset spartan hoplite cost by 20 wood 10 metal. +5 build limit per estate. Since their relationship to helots was respective to their land as described by @wowgetoffyourcellphone, perhaps it makes sense to give the grain range aura to those estates rather than the sissitia which would just train them and make upgrades. 

Overall I think the meatshield role for melee units that we largely see right now would be reduced by players having a commitment to keeping champions alive (so they can become olympic) and investing in melee damage that they can exploit with the movement speed upgrade. 

@borg- I like a lot of your ideas, and I think this is a good way to go about civ differentiation.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

14 minutes ago, alre said:

Spearmen hero

300 Spartans: all allied melee infantry gets +20% speed, 2 pierce resistance, +2 hack resistance, +20% damage. 30m radius. This ability only works when Leonidas is engaging an enemy.

Last stand: when Leonidas is engaging an enemy, he cannot be ordered to disengage.

LOL I actually like this idea. It could be thought of as a yolo hero. Unfortunately I think most of the time he will just get sniped.

 

16 minutes ago, alre said:

It would be even more fun if helots rebelled everytime the max number of them would go under the current number allowed by spartiates.

That doesn't sound fun. Would they go to Gaia or just stop working? either way it would enter the player into a death spiral.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, alre said:

Helots

Spartan women are costlier than other women (they are decent fighters) and maybe limited in number (if spartiates are also), but you can trade male helot workers, they can't defend, and are limited in a number that depends on spartiates. For instance, every new spartiate could raise the max number of helots by 2. Spartiates would be important for economy as well as for war, forcing them to be more than meatshield strategically. It would be even more fun if helots rebelled everytime the max number of them would go under the current number allowed by spartiates.

I like this.

[Dakara]

5) Change totaly the siege. Remplace by mercenary siege. Sparta can't build siege, only recruit mercenary siege in the arsenal.

Instead of recruit unit siege one by one. We can only recruit by group of mercenary siege.

i explain instead of recruit unit siege. We can recrut only group of mercenary siege;

2 chooses in the building.

A) 2 ram 1 bolt 4 light sword men (they repear faster X2), 500 metal and 10 population. 45 seconds.

B)3 Catapulte 6 light sword men (they repear faster X2), 800 metal and 10pop. 60 seconds.

Also we delete all tech in this building.

 

[Stan`]

20 minutes ago, Dakara said:

only recruit mercenary siege in the arsenal.

Doesn't really make much sense, you can build a building to create siege but it's not yours? ^^"

 

[Dakara]

25 minutes ago, Stan` said:

Doesn't really make much sense, you can build a building to create siege but it's not yours? ^^"

 

so need change the word, so they are not mercenary but sparta siege, but recruit by group for 10pop.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Ideas:

Spartan Woman

- Can no longer gather, but can build structures quickly and have their old "Alure" aura back.

Helot Worker

- Can only gather, but do so quicker than other gatherers. Very low health; Can be captured.

Agis III

Change Agis III to Cleomenes III. He's now a pikeman and his special is that he can train a limited number of Champion Spartan Pikemen very quickly. This number can be per match or just a standard training limit.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Spartan Woman

- Can no longer gather, but can build structures quickly and have their old "Alure" aura back.

Helot Worker

- Can only gather, but do so quicker than other gatherers. Very low health; Can be captured.

I feel like this strays too far from the common general structure of civs.

 

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Agis III

Change Agis III to Cleomenes III. He's now a pikeman and his special is that he can train a limited number of Champion Spartan Pikemen very quickly. This number can be per match or just a standard training limit.

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I think it is best to avoid a hard limit on units like this. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

 

20 hours ago, alre said:

Leonidas rework

Spearmen hero

300 Spartans: all allied melee infantry gets +20% speed, 2 pierce resistance, +2 hack resistance, +20% damage. 30m radius. This ability only works when Leonidas is engaging an enemy.

Last stand: when Leonidas is engaging an enemy, he cannot be ordered to disengage.

This could be great, and I like that it is not a complete buff, rather having a trade-off, but I worry it could lead to some unfortunate gameplay consequences. Namely players immediately resigning on the condition they lose the hero.

Ideally, the game shouldn't be decided by a single fight.

Other than that, I would say this is great.

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 25/06/2022 at 11:31 AM, borg- said:

Sparta has gerousia and persian stoa as currently unused buildings.

I think giving spartans the stoa could be a good place to start, on top of @borg-'s original ideas.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

22 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I feel like this strays too far from the common general structure of civs.

 

No it doesn't. And if it did, so?

 

22 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I think it is best to avoid a hard limit on units like this. 

Or... just remove the limit idea. The rest still holds.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

No it doesn't. And if it did, so?

so far, women are common to every civ. Removing gather rates from women would be a pretty major departure from the existing structure of civs. I would say the benefit of a common basic structure to civs is that they make the game easier to learn for new players, and "learning" a new civ once you have mastered one isn't so hard. I would say that gameplay can become confusing when civs are very different (this seems to be one common complaint about AOE4)

I see now that your idea is not to change the helot skirmisher but instead add a separate helot worker. Apologies for this misunderstanding. 

Now, should the women really be just construction workers?

It's a little awkward. Would it be that bad for the helot workers and women to just coexist as economic units?

Perhaps give the helot workers additional cost compared to women, but different gather rates for specific resources?

Having two dissimilar economic units could give sparta some useful flexibility and maybe better population efficiency for gathering specific resources, depending on the gather rate specs of the helot workers.

For the record of this discussion, I would say balance wise, that the biggest setback for Sparta is the lack of mobility.

I imagine this is why @borg- discussed this:

On 25/06/2022 at 10:36 AM, borg- said:

- New movement speed technology for champion infantry;

I think a "move speed + loot" type hero would be nice. Maybe just move speed. Might need to change the name.

A "trade-off" example could be -1 pierce armor +30% speed.

A hero like this should remain a foot soldier, though.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

However, Greek philosopher Plato saw tyrannos as a negative word, and on account of the decisive influence of philosophy on politics, its negative connotations only increased, continuing into the Hellenistic period.

 

The philosophers Plato and Aristotle defined a tyrant as a person who rules without law, using extreme and cruel methods against both his own people and others.[5][6] The Encyclopédie defined the term as a usurper of sovereign power who makes "his subjects the victims of his passions and unjust desires, which he substitutes for laws".[7] In the late fifth and fourth centuries BC, a new kind of tyrant, one who had the support of the military, arose – specifically in Sicily.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant

 

-----

This reading is interesting.

https://www.thoughtco.com/tyrants-after-the-peloponnesian-war-120199

It is dangerous that in many countries they ignore fascism and all their consciences. So then Armán wars and end up like Athens in the hands of (Plutocratic) tyrants.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

A unique feature of a civ is one that departs in some way from the established trend of other civs. Creating an entirely new area of functionality for a particular civ, as was done frequently in Aoe4, is bad and gimmicky, if not impossible to balance. People often complain that Aoe2 civs are "all the same" but it is because they fail to realize the significance of a small bonus or small unique feature or upgrade to certain units or structures or economy.

We don't have to do wild new changes in the name of differentiation. We need smaller, but key distinguishing features that players can use to beat one another.

Edited June 26, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

22 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

We don't have to do wild new changes in the name of differentiation. We need smaller, but key distinguishing features that players can use to beat one another.

Well, a counterexample is Age of Mythology, with 3 (then 4, and then 5) very unique civs, which was well-received and has a dedicated fanbase to this day.  

 

Also, what is a "wild" new change differs from person to person. My Spartan Woman/Helot idea doesn't even add any new features. What to you or me is a "change" is simply a "fact of life" for any new players of the game. And make no mistake, as the game's reach hopefully grows, there will be more of them than us. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Yekaterina]

On 25/06/2022 at 6:36 PM, borg- said:

Sissitia moved to phase 1;

 

On 25/06/2022 at 6:36 PM, borg- said:

Champions spearman can be trained on phase 1;

 

On 25/06/2022 at 6:36 PM, borg- said:

Champion spearman can up to rank 2 (olympic champion). Current hoplite tradition also affects champions.

Now please give me a reason why I should spend 500 food 500 wood 750 stone and 750 metal to go to P3. I can destroy everyone in P1 at minute 11 if this happens. 

 

On 25/06/2022 at 6:36 PM, borg- said:

Sissitia range aura of gathering rate on farms for citizens infantry skimishers near. Gathers like a woman, but her attack is reduced a little.

I like this

On 25/06/2022 at 6:36 PM, borg- said:

New movement speed technology for champion infantry;

This is also a good buff for infantry