Introducing the Official community mod for Alpha 26

[Fabius]

4 hours ago, Stan` said:

Sorry should have made myself clearer. The current armor worn by units might be from a later period. So you can have a centurion with a different armor but not the current one.

 

@real_tabasco_sauce

[Fabius]

46 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

i guess so. I was thinking Marian reforms were enough justification, but perhaps they were more standardized later. To be honest, Rome has enough units in my mind already.

Its not a case of adding more units to Rome. its giving Rome unique things that differentiate them from the other civs.

[Fabius]

As it stands we have all the required resources on hand, all that is left is to achieve a positive consensus and then process it for testing and implementation  

[chrstgtr]

45 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

what about this? @chrstgtr@Philip the Swaggerless @ValihrAnt @LetswaveaBook

I like it with one small caveat below. 

I would decrease the cost of stone for CC from 350s--300s and for the colony from 200s-->150s. As you have it now, it unfairly disadvantages slinger civs--wood and stone should be the same cost. 

The whole point of the proposal is to encourage more CCs and make expansion become an actual part of the game. I am not worried about cheapness. The meta will change, but that's the point. This type of meta change is exactly what should be tested with this mod. 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

20 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

CC provides 20 population, like two houses and can produce CS soldiers like a barracks. Also it is a dropsite for resources. So it has a lot of functions. Furthermore it grants territory and garrison space. It also allows you to grab a strategic position. I think the proposed cost is to low. 

250 metal I would suggest for the cc, rather than 100. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Fabius said:

Its not a case of adding more units to Rome. its giving Rome unique things that differentiate them from the other civs.

That doesn't give them anything different.

Centurion does not change anything, it is not a new infantry unit.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, chrstgtr said:

The whole point of the proposal is to encourage more CCs and make expansion become an actual part of the game. I am not worried about cheapness. The meta will change, but that's the point. This type of meta change is exactly what should be tested with this mod. 

I agree, we can pick a cost and try it out.

I understand what you said about slingers, however, for the most part, stone is used mainly for p3 and fortress, with very little used for barracks stable. Right now stone is very underused for most civs.

This is why I made the cc cost more stone than any other res. However, the symmetric wood and stone cost is probably better anyway, so I will change that. Should I increase wood for colonies or decrease stone? I am worried about colonies being too strong compared to CCs.

perhaps with the reduction in area for each phase, I should decrease colony territory radius a little?

Edited October 14, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

ok:

new values for CC:

300 wood, 300 stone, 250 metal

new values for colony:

200 wood, 200 stone, 150 metal

80 75 meter radius.

 

^ maybe both the CC and colony should cost 150 metal. The rationale is that they both give a new territory root which is represented by the metal cost. In principle, for gaining a new position on the map (a foothold) a colony is just as useful as a cc, so in that regard colonies are much stronger. This is why the metal cost could be made the same.

Edited October 14, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Philip the Swaggerless]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

what about this?@Philip the Swaggerless

My main question would be, how was @ValihrAnt's mod?  Was it enjoyed by those who played it better than the current game?

Concerns :

• Map resource distribution probably needs rework
• Could exacerbate unbalanced maps (phase 1 especially)
• CC Spam or "castle-drop" gameplay.
• More difficult to make stonewalls that cover your base.  (not that people do this anyways)
• If it is difficult to maintain unit production, that can feel dissatisfying.

Excitement :

• Artificially creates a "larger map"
• New expansionary gameplay.
• Could this lead to (mainland) maps requiring scouting to know where the opponent's initial base is?

Conclusion :

It could be good or it could bad. 

[chrstgtr]

1 minute ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

My main question would be, how was @ValihrAnt's mod?  Was it enjoyed by those who played it better than the current game?

Concerns :

• Map resource distribution probably needs rework
• Could exacerbate unbalanced maps (phase 1 especially)
• CC Spam or "castle-drop" gameplay.
• More difficult to make stonewalls that cover your base.  (not that people do this anyways)
• If it is difficult to maintain unit production, that can feel dissatisfying.

Excitement :

• Artificially creates a "larger map"
• New expansionary gameplay.
• Could this lead to (mainland) maps requiring scouting to know where the opponent's initial base is?

Conclusion :

It could be good or it could bad. 

I played a few games in Vali’s mod. It was fun. It was basically the same game except with an added element of required expansion/strategic expansion. If you just want the current meta of boom, don’t expand, push, then you probably won’t like it 
 

with that said, this mod exists to test stuff like this out

[real_tabasco_sauce]

yes, @Philip the Swaggerless. It is hard to say. From what I have heard about @ValihrAnt's mod, it was well recieved.

I bet it will change the game flow quite a bit to be honest.

Edited October 14, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Norse_Harold]

There's an ongoing tournament that is expected to last until at least October 30th. Players are using the community-mod for its current fixes of critical bugs.

Think about what happens if the community-mod suddenly changes mid-tournament. It will end up benefiting certain tournament players who have relevant skills, strategies and practice with the civs affected by the community-mod. This would end up creating an unfair situation for tournament players.

We need a solution to this problem. Suggested solutions follow.

• Create a separate mod with only the bugfixes, which the tournament players will use. Example: copy community-mod v0.26.2 as it is now to a mod named community-bugfixes.
• Feature freeze community-mod until the tournament is finished.
• Ask the tournament players to not use the community-mod for tournament matches. But, I think it's too late for this because the first round was probably played with community-mod enabled.

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Norse_Harold

[Feldfeld]

7 minutes ago, Norse_Harold said:

There's an ongoing tournament that is expected to last until at least October 30th. Players are using the community-mod for its current fixes of critical bugs.

Think about what happens if the community-mod suddenly changes mid-tournament. It will end up benefiting certain tournament players who have relevant skills, strategies and practice with the civs affected by the community-mod. This would end up creating an unfair situation for tournament players.

We need a solution to this problem. Suggested solutions follow.

• Create a separate mod with only the bugfixes, which the tournament players will use. Example: copy community-mod v0.0.26.2 as it is now to a mod named community-bugfixes.
• Feature freeze community-mod until the tournament is finished.
• Ask the tournament players to not use the community-mod for tournament matches. But, I think it's too late for this because the first round was probably played with community-mod enabled.

 

Thanks for your concern!

Please note that my tournament had a few objectives regarding the community mod:
- Make it popular with the multiplayer community (it ended up being adopted without needing help from the tournament)
- Test the new features of the mod, try to find out what's broken for balance

That is the reason why I required the community mod, it's not really because it fixed the Hans (if I wanted I could still have gone without it).

The competitive aspect of the tournament came after these objectives. I didn't intend the tournament to be really competitive. (though if players have an opinion if future tournaments should be more/less competitive they can message me)

As for my wish for community mod updates with respect to the tournament: I wished for no more than one update during the tournament (so before October 30). Other than that it's free.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

i'd say we should have a more sizable set of changes to justify a release. Tournament concerns aside, we also don't want to annoy community mod users in general.

[Norse_Harold]

2 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

i'd say we should have a more sizable set of changes to justify a release. Tournament concerns aside, we also don't want to annoy community mod users in general.

Yeah. And, before any release there should be some playtesting done in TGs with the exact commits that are being considered for a new release. The player base are not our beta testers.

[Fabius]

2 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

That doesn't give them anything different.

Centurion does not change anything, it is not a new infantry unit.

As I mentioned previously the concept I had in mind for the centurion was utilization of certain aspects of the Han government minister, as listed prior the possible bonuses could be a speed boost, a building boost, and an attack boost. All things that one would expect centurions to be overseeing. I am certain others might have bonuses to put forward that I have overlooked. But as it stands that is the core of the matter. 

[Norse_Harold]

24 minutes ago, Feldfeld said:

As for my wish for community mod updates with respect to the tournament: I wished for no more than one update during the tournament (so before October 30). Other than that it's free.

Okay, thanks for the reply and clarification on this.

By "one update" during the tournament, does version 0.26.2 of community-mod count as that "one update"? Or do you mean one more update beyond version 0.26.2?

[Feldfeld]

8 minutes ago, Norse_Harold said:

Okay, thanks for the reply and clarification on this.

By "one update" during the tournament, does version 0.26.2 of community-mod count as that "one update"? Or do you mean one more update beyond version 0.26.2?

The tournament started at 0.26.2, so I meant one update beyond that.

But that's just a simple personal wish. I don't really mind if there are more updates. I'd say there shouldn't be too much changes at a time (so I would suggest something like: release every 2 weeks, have a decent amount of changes but not too much)

20 minutes ago, Norse_Harold said:

Yeah. And, before any release there should be some playtesting done in TGs with the exact commits that are being considered for a new release. The player base are not our beta testers.

Given how hard it was in the past to make players go out of their way to install gameplay/balance mod, or to play SVN, I'd say it's probably good to have players directly test the next release. Of course it wouldn't be nice if it was so bad it makes them go back to vanilla and then not bother with the mod afterward, but I hope it's not something that can happen.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Feldfeld

[real_tabasco_sauce]

54 minutes ago, Norse_Harold said:

TGs with the exact commits that are being considered for a new release. The player base are not our beta testers.

this is pretty easy. If you want to test my changes, just clone my repo and copy the directory "community-mod" into ur 0ad mods folder.

I will do this sometime soon for my merge requests.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Fabius said:

As I mentioned previously the concept I had in mind for the centurion was utilization of certain aspects of the Han government minister

on what historical basis?

[Fabius]

59 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

on what historical basis?

I took inspiration from Han ministers as a means to viably incorporate centurions into the current Roman faction in an interesting manner. Centurions did admin as well as fight wars.

I see no issue with taking mechanics from other factions and putting a different spin on them to represent something in a different faction. You have only so many elements to work with. 

In fact as a further specification the attack bonus can be tuned to melee infantry and not ranged, now you encourage usage of melee units for damage and not just as meatshields. 

[vinme]

21 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

CC provides 20 population, like two houses and can produce CS soldiers like a barracks. Also it is a dropsite for resources. So it has a lot of functions. Furthermore it grants territory and garrison space. It also allows you to grab a strategic position. I think the proposed cost is to low. 

I think currently colonies are a bit too cheap, and ccs are a bit too expensive, if 20% cost was added to colonies, as well as build time.

and -25% buildtime cost, -10% overall cost removed from cc. this might help a bit. 
house 150, barac 300(ignoring buildtimes) dropsite 100 thats already 550 res, so for 600 res you get all that + teritory+powerful defensive arrow shooting garisonable building.

teritory value cant be underrated, i wont get into its myriad of values. 

[vinme]

btw i skipped a large part of this thread, theres waay too much stuff being posted for me to keep up with, too much effort, so i might be out of the loop here. somewhat disorganized, maybe try "thread link" system, where ppl post thread links here, and then continue discussion in the said link, so ppl can scroll thru 10-20 tread links on one thread, and pick relevant ones to look into, instead of having to scroll through bunch of nonsense.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

8 hours ago, Feldfeld said:

Given how hard it was in the past to make players go out of their way to install gameplay/balance mod

I think many people who make new features, discuss gameplay, and advocate for certain features are all very excited about this mod due to the potential to make progress on ideas that have been discussed for a long time but never tested to any degree because players would never do anything on svn, release candidates, or concept mods. Also there is the potential for feature optimization, where a feature can be tweaked to be more fun based on more prompt feedback from the community. 

Despite the excitement I think its important to start of with bugfixes and tweaks and gradually expand the scope toward balance changes, new civ differentiation work, and maybe even new mechanics.

[Darkcity]

9 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

300 wood, 300 stone, 250 metal

new values for colony:

200 wood, 200 stone, 150 metal

80 75 meter radius.

CC/Colony cost correction -------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think people are ever short of wood in the game. You can find the food and wood floating. We can focus on reducing the stones and metal cost while keeping the wood cost same.

Also, comparing metal and stone, metal is more used in the game then stone. So, we can adjust accordingly. So, the cost can be like

500 woods, 350 stones, 250 metal something like that. We can balance it as required but cost for cc should look like.

Wood required > stone required >metal required.

Same thought process we can have for colony.

 

Alternative approach-----------------------Upgrading the CC-----------------------------------------------

You can build the CC with half of the actual cost. Like 250 wood, 250 stone, 250 metal. But it will have half territory range, half garrsion, half capture point. So, most params are half.

But once you upgrade, it will have its full effect back. The upgrade can be done with 100 wood, 100 stones and 100 metal. 

This will not hinder the expension approach and it will not affect currenct mechanics either, i suppoose.