Introducing the Official community mod for 0 A.D. Empires Ascendant

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Ok @Stan` @wraitii it looks like only 5 of the 11 were supported enough: 1,2,4,8 and 10.

With more votes I don't expect any of the other merge requests to change.

[Dizaka]

4 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Im frankly just surprised so many would reject such a large addition of content to the game. Almost nobody would vote no on a new civ, even thought they may not understand all the details on the new civ.

@Dizaka did you follow the link provided? https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests/25

It is a tech tree, a system, found in the barracks/stable for each unit. Each of these 23 is an upgrade for a particular unit type. among them, there is a level 1 (town phase, costing 100 food, wood, metal) and a level 2 (city phase, costing 200 f,w,m). They do not effect mercenaries. Each civ is allotted 4 to 8 of these upgrades for units which are important to their play style, and also depending on balance. (for instance, I didn't give the skirmish cav upgrade to mauryans).

each upgrade is also designed to give differentiating qualities to units (longer pikes, increased pikemen cavalry counter, spearmen prepare time upgrade).

The idea is that the upgrades one civ has access to are at least a little different from another, and different advantages/disadvantages come from this.

I hope you can see that they all work together as a system and that adding a select few of them wouldn't work well.

A lot of you mentioned you like them, but a few things are remain unappealing. What would you personally change about the upgrades?

Here's are my concerns and suggestions for #3 after going through everything and summarizing it for myself (note:  this took 2+ hours.  Not a simple vote item).

Final Conclusion Statement:  It's a great idea and it's something where 0ad should strive for "civ differentiation."  However, the main issues is that base units needs to be balanced and roles more defined.  That is, spear/pike/sword/axe, bow/skrim/sling/xbow, cav vs infantry, need to be more defined.  Currently, cav are OP for endgame even without the proposed upgrades.  As it stands, the upgrades, I think, would make 0ad a cav-centered game.

 

Suggestion/Middle ground:  A checkbox in community mod to "enable" this over base game.  Alternatively, a new "community mod" type but then this wouldn't get usage.

 

My analysis is based on the following "data" and extraction of information.

 

 

·      Athenians

o   Horseback training

• • • P1
    • .65 Attack/Range/PrepareTime
    • .75 Attack/Ranged/projectile/Spread
  • Husbandry
    • P1
    • 1.1 Health/Max
  • Chamfron
    • P2
    • +1 Resistance/Entity/Damage/Pierce
  • Longer slings
    • P2
    • +5 Attack/Ranged/MaxRange
    • 1.1 Attack/Ranged/PrepareTime
  • Basic Training
    • P1
    • 1.2 Attack/Melee/Damage/Pierce
  • Battle Charge
    • P2
    • 1.5 UnitMotion/Acceleration
    • 1.1 UnitMotion/Walkspeed

·      Britons

o   Husbandry

o   Chamfron

o   Longer slings

o   Basic Training

o   Battle Charge

·      Carthaginians

o   Heavy draw weight

• • • Available P1
    • Maury/Kush/Carth/Hah
    • 1.15 attack/ranged/damage/pierce modification
    • 1.5 projectile speed modification

o   Horseback training

• • Basic Training
  • Battle Charge

·      Gauls

o   Horseback training

• • • P1
    • .65 Attack/Range/PrepareTime
    • .75 Attack/Ranged/projectile/Spread

o   Husbandry

o   Balanced Javelins

• • • P1
    • +30 Attack/Ranged/Projectile/Speed
    • 0.7 Attack/Ranged/Projectile/Spread

o   Spear Thrower

o   March training

• • • P1
    • 1.1 UnitMotion/Walkspeed

·      Han

o   Heavy draw weight

o   Horse Racing

• • • P1
    • 1.1 UnitMotion/Walkspeed
    • 1.5 UnitMotion/Acceleration
  • Lancing tactics
    • P2
    • 1.2 Attack/Melee/Damage/Pierce
    • .25 Attack/Melee/PrepareTime
  • Streamlined Fletching
  • Longer Pikes
    • P1
    • Sele/Mace/Ptol/Han
    • +4 Attack/Melee/MaxRange
  • Basic Training
  • Battle Charge

·      Iberians

o   Horse Racing

o   Lancing tactics

o   Balanced Javelins

o   March training

·      Kushites

o   Heavy draw weight

o   Horseback training

o   Horse Racing

o   Greaves

• • • P1
    • +1 Resistance/Entity/Damage/Hack

o   Lightly Armored

• • • P2
    • 1.3 UnitMotion/Walkspeed
    • 1.5 UnitMotion/Acceleration
    • -1 Resistance/Entity/Damage/Pierce
  • March training
  • Hand Guards
    • P2
    • 1.1 Health/Max
    • +1 Resistance/Entity/Damage/Hack

·      Macedonians

o   Horse Racing

o   Lancing tactics

o   Streamlined Fletching

• • • P1
    • 1.5 Attack/Ranged/projectile Speed
    • 0.8 Attack/Ranged/Projectile/Spread
  • Longer Pikes
  • Buttspike (Rome?)
    • P2
    • 1.2 Attack/Melee/Damage/Pierce
    • 1.5 Attack/Melee/Bonus/BonusCavMelee/Multiplier
  • Balanced Javelins
  • Spear Thrower
    • P2
    • Mace/Rome/Gaul
    • +5 Attack/Ranged/MaxRange

·      Mauryas

o   Heavy draw weight

o   Scouting tactics

• • • Available P1
    • Adds 10 to vision & range
  • Cavalry Heavy Draw
    • P2
    • 1.15 attack/ranged/damage/pierce modification
    • 1.5 projectile speed modification
  • Husbandry
  • Chamfron
  • Greaves
  • Lightly Armored

·      Persians

o   Scouting tactics

o   Cavalry Heavy Draw

o   Heavy Axe

• • • P1
    • 1.65 Attack/Melee/Damage/Hack
    • 1.5 Attack/Melee/Damage/Crush
    • 1.5 Attack/Melee/RepeatTime
  • Raiding Cavalry
    • P2
    • 1.15 Motion/Walk
    • 1.25 Motion/Acceleration
    • 0.75 Resistance/Entity/Damage/Pierce
  • Basic Training

·      Ptolemies

o   Scouting tactics

o   Horse Racing

o   Lancing tactics

o   Longer Pikes

·      Romans

o   Horse Racing

o   Lancing tactics

o   Balanced Javelins

o   Spear Thrower

o   March training

o   Hand Guards

·      Seleucids

o   Scouting tactics

o   Cavalry Heavy Draw

o   Horse Racing

o   Longer Pikes

• • Buttspike
  • Balanced Javelins

·      Spartans

o   Horse Racing

o   Balanced Javelins

o   Basic Training

o   March training

 

 

 

• "Heavy draw weight"
  • Available P1
  • Maury/Kush/Carth/Hah
  • 1.15 attack/rangedd/damage/pierce modfication
  • 1.5 projectile speed modification
• "Scouting tactics"
  • Available P1
  • Pers/Sele/Ptol/Maur
  • Adds 10 to vision & range
• "Cavalry Heavy Draw"
  • P2
  • Maur/Sele/Pers
  • 1.15 attack/rangedd/damage/pierce modfication
  • 1.5 projectile speed modification
• Heavy Axe
  • P1
  • Pers
  • 1.65 Attack/Melee/Damage/Hack
  • 1.5 Attack/Melee/Damage/Crush
  • 1.5 Attack/Melee/RepeatTime
• Raiding Cavalry
  • P2
  • Pers
  • 1.15 Motion/Walk
  • 1.25 Motion/Acceleration
  • 0.75 Resistance/Entity/Damage/Pierce
• Horseback training
  • P1
  • Gaul/Athen/Kush/Cart
  • .65 Attack/Range/PrepareTime
  • .75 Attack/Ranged/projectile/Spread
• Horse Racing
  • P1
  • Rome/Mace/Kush/han/Iber/Ptol/Spart/Sele
  • 1.1 UnitMotion/Walkspeed
  • 1.5 UnitMotion/Acceleration
• Lancing tactics
  • P2
  • Mace/Han/Rome/Ptol/Iber
  • 1.2 Attack/Melee/Damage/Pierce
  • .25 Attack/Melee/PrepareTime
• Husbandry
  • P1
  • Athen/Brit/Maur/Gaul
  • 1.1 Health/Max
• Chamfron
  • P2
  • Athen/Maur/Brit
  • +1 Resistance/Entity/Damage/Pierce
• Greaves
  • P1
  • Kush/Maur
  • +1 Resistance/Entity/Damage/Hack
• Lightly Armored
  • P2
  • Kush/Maur
  • 1.3 UnitMotion/Walkspeed
  • 1.5 UnitMotion/Acceleration
  • -1 Resistance/Entity/Damage/Pierce
• Streamlined Fletching
  • P1
  • Han/Mace
  • 1.5 Attack/Ranged/projectile Speed
  • 0.8 Attack/Ranged/Projectile/Spread
• Longer Pikes
  • P1
  • Sele/Mace/Ptol/Han
  • +4 Attack/Melee/MaxRange
• Buttspike
  • P2
  • Mace/Sele
  • 1.2 Attack/Melee/Damage/Pierce
  • 1.5 Attack/Melee/Bonus/BonusCavMelee/Multiplier
• Balanced Javelins
  • P1
  • Iber/Mace/Spart/Gaul/Sele/Rome
  • +30 Attack/Ranged/Projectile/Speed
  • 0.7 Attack/Ranged/Projectile/Spread
• Spear Thrower
  • P2
  • Mace/Rome/Gaul
  • +5 Attack/Ranged/MaxRange
• Lead Shot
  • P1
  • 1.3 Attack/Ranged/Damage/Pierce
  • 1.25 Attack/Ranged/Damage/Crush
  • 1.2 Attack/Ranged/RepeatTime
• Longer slings
  • P2
  • Athens/Brit
  • +5 Attack/Ranged/MaxRange
  • 1.1 Attack/Ranged/PrepareTime
• Basic Training
  • P1
  • Athen/Pers/Brit/Spart/Cart/Han
  • 1.2 Attack/Melee/Damage/Pierce
• Battle Charge
  • P2
  • Athen/Brit/Cart/pers
  • 1.5 UnitMotion/Acceleration
  • 1.1 UnitMotion/Walkspeed
• March training
  • P1
  • Iber/Rome/Gaul/Kush/Spart
  • 12.1 UnitMotion/Walkspeed
• Hand Guards
  • P2
  • Rome/Kush
  • 1.1 Health/Max
  • +1 Resistance/Entity/Damage/Hack
• •  

 

Civ-Balanced.docx Upgrades-Balanced.docx

Edited December 11, 2022 by Dizaka

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Hi @Dizaka thanks a lot for this feedback. Do you mind if I use the list you made in the unit specific upgrades description in Gitlab?

first: I think you meant to say 'P2' and 'P3' not 'P1' and 'P2'.

I think the current cav concerns will remain since we were unable to agree on a nerf for them. I thought the health adjustments were pretty ideal, but it seems players had their concerns with them since many voted no.

Keep in mind that the existing "cavalry_health" and "cavalry_speed" upgrades would be removed here as @Feldfeldmentioned, so the upgrades would technically buff infantry more than cavalry.

What do you mean by "defining the unit roles"? Are you saying the units are too similar for these upgrades to make sense? Are some upgrades too similar? Also what are the red, underlined parts?

[Dizaka]

  

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Hi @Dizaka thanks a lot for this feedback. Do you mind if I use the list you made in the unit specific upgrades description in Gitlab?

Go for it.  That's why I included the files so there is no need to "repeat" the work.

 

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

first: I think you meant to say 'P2' and 'P3' not 'P1' and 'P2'.

Ooops

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I think the current cav concerns will remain since we were unable to agree on a nerf for them. I thought the health adjustments were pretty ideal, but it seems players had their concerns with them since many voted no.

Keep in mind that the existing "cavalry_health" and "cavalry_speed" upgrades would be removed here as @Feldfeldmentioned, so the upgrades would technically buff infantry more than cavalry.

Sounds good

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

What do you mean by "defining the unit roles"? Are you saying the units are too similar for these upgrades to make sense? Are some upgrades too similar? Also what are the red, underlined parts?

What I mean by that is, for example:

Macdonians:  They don't have non-champ xbow.  However, the upgrade (Streamlined fletching) for xbow is provided for them.  Currently, that upgrade seems pointless and/or their champions too strong?

Another Point:  Certain civs feel "empty."  I genuinely feel that each civ should have tank/ranged for both cav and infantry.  There are a few civs don't have both for cav unless you include mercs.  That is, cav usually win games.  If civs don't have cav tank/ranged combos then they are weak civs.  I think this could be changed with more diversity by doing chariots and mounted cav and mixing this up and making elephant cav viable for some civs (sele/Maury).

Another Point:  Maury elephant archers are sidelined by 2 pop.  Their damage has been halved.  They are not used anymore.

Another Point:  Ranged siege is weird situation with infantry attacks.  Same with rams.  I don't understand why these units can't be used versus live units.

Another Point:  Kush axemen.  Are they sword? Are they Spear? Are they Pike?  What is their role?

Another Point:  Persian Axe Cav.  What are they?  What function should they serve?

Another Pont:  Han Halber(sp?)?  Are they just reskined pikemen?  An hybrid sword/spear/pike?  Hybrid sword/pike? Hybrid Sword/spear?  Why do han need pike, spear, and hal.  Could it be hal+ just another one, not all 3?

Another Point:  Heroes without auras?  Sparta comes into mind.  Then Mauryas if temple update is permanent.

Another Point:  Are merc cav even used/useful?

I think the changes being proposed are more of an "overlay" that could be perfected/added in the future but the primary effort should be at making current units more usable.  That's why I think, if it does get implemented, it's as a checkbox for multiplayer in the community mod.  That is, I don't want to live through another "archer update" (which WAS necessary) to make units viable.  I'd prefer all units to be viable BEFORE any changes are put on top for uniqueness.

 

Disclaimer:  I'm of the perspective that 0ad matches, ideally, should be 20-30 minute matches majority of the time.  Anything over 45 minutes is too "hardcore" to attract casual players.  There needs to be an available aggressive early game, aggressive mid game, and aggressive end game.  Phases shouldn't be just "transitions."

Edited December 11, 2022 by Dizaka

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@Dizaka I see what you mean but these issues are individual and outside the scope of the upgrades we discussed. Adding the upgrades would in no way stop updates to elephant archers for example.

that being said, you are right that some of these are areas for improvement:

• ele archers might need an adjustment, they are a little weak.
• the remaining heroes need proper auras.
• I currently envision the kush axemen like a more lightly armored swordsman with an additional crush attack, right now they are basically sword champs but slightly worse.

However:

• Axe cav (persia) were given a buff in 0.26.3 such that they deal more damage than swordcav but remain weakly armored. (the upgrade "raiding cavalry" gives them more speed at the cost of making the unit even weaker). They absolutely have a role at the moment, you should try them out.
• ranged siege can attack soldiers, rams cannot.
• Mercenary cav are still very strong.

Lastly, I doubt such an overlay is possible or even effective. Instead, we can just add what has been voted for into 0.26.4, and then I can modify the upgrades as necessary to be a part of the community mod in a27. (because I really haven't seen any good reasons not to add them.)

this way a27 and 0.26.4 get the more popular items here, and the upgrades could possibly go through a longer period of playtesting.

Edited December 11, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Dizaka]

1 minute ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@Dizaka I see what you mean but these issues are individual and outside the scope of the upgrades we discussed. Adding the upgrades would in no way stop updates to elephant archers for example.

...

Lastly, I doubt such an overlay is possible or even effective. Instead, we can just add what has been voted for into 0.26.4, and then I can modify the upgrades as necessary to be a part of the community mod in a27. (because I really haven't seen any good reasons not to add them.)

this way a27 and 0.26.4 get the more popular items here, and the upgrades could possibly go through a longer period of playtesting.

I'm hoping it is possible.  You can disable/enable allied vision being explored.  I don't see why it'd be impossible to enable/disable technology trees from lobby.

My main concern is 0ad and community mod becoming too divergent and incompatible.  I genuinely like the changes but they are drastic.  To not change the spirit and intent while increasing the complexity of balancing, I would seriously consider the proposed changes as ones that would need a lot of balancing and input/testing.  I think a checkbox would be best choice and I do not mean to belittle your effort because I like the changes but they are drastic but are what is wanted, civ diversification.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, Dizaka said:

My main concern is 0ad and community mod becoming too divergent and incompatible.  I genuinely like the changes but they are drastic.  To not change the spirit and intent while increasing the complexity of balancing, I would seriously consider the proposed changes as ones that would need a lot of balancing and input/testing.  I think a checkbox would be best choice and I do not mean to belittle your effort because I like the changes but they are drastic but are what is wanted, civ diversification.

the 5 changes that were voted for can be added in 0.26.4 and could go on into a27. Maybe it is for the best that we postpone adding the upgrades to the community mod until after a27 is released, since this way they would get more playtesting and balancing time in the community mod for a27.

This close to feature freeze, I think players want features they have more confidence in.

Edited December 12, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

also, to anyone, why not reduce pikemen armor and increase damage? Im curious since plenty of complaints exist on pikemen being too tanky.

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

also, to anyone, why not reduce pikemen armor and increase damage? Im curious since plenty of complaints exist on pikemen being too tanky.

I think I voted for it, but I fear we are slipping into just making them spears. I don't have any good suggestions here. Maybe increasing attack range, like your 23 unit upgrade patch, would keep them differentiated and then you could decrease armor or something too to keep them from being OP

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I predict that the next time #3 goes up for a vote it will be shot down again, with the same vague reasons given as this time. I just want this written here so that I can quote it when it happens.

 

[Fabius]

12 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

the 5 changes that were voted for can be added in 0.26.4 and could go on into a27. Maybe it is for the best that we postpone adding the upgrades to the community mod until after a27 is released, since this way they would get more playtesting and balancing time in the community mod for a27.

This close to feature freeze, I think players want features they have more confidence in.

I like the unit upgrades and definitely think they should be tested and added, but how exactly are we going to test them effectively if the player community doesn't want to be helpful and let it go in the community mod? Seems to me the only option will be to override the player base for their own good.

[alre]

well that escalated quickly

[real_tabasco_sauce]

4 hours ago, Fabius said:

Seems to me the only option will be to override the player base for their own good.

no, this is a community mod. The community has spoken on 5 of the MR's and these are the ones that should be added.

I will revise the upgrades and see if they are of interest later.

[Fabius]

So when do we call an end to the voting and move into the consolidation phase?  

[chrstgtr]

8 minutes ago, Fabius said:

So when do we call an end to the voting and move into the consolidation phase?  

No votes the last few days. And unless there is a surge of votes, the results won’t change. I think we have what we have and might as well start testing 

[Stan`]

I've locked the poll. It seems the PR aren't rebased correctly so I might have to do some things manually...

I closed the disagreed upon ones.

[Adeimantos]

On 11/12/2022 at 10:47 PM, chrstgtr said:

I think I voted for it, but I fear we are slipping into just making them spears. I don't have any good suggestions here. Maybe increasing attack range, like your 23 unit upgrade patch, would keep them differentiated and then you could decrease armor or something too to keep them from being OP

I think pikemen should be unique by being really strong at melee but weak against range. Attack similar to spearmen, but 8 hack armor and 4 pierce armor. Also if crush gets reworked they should have higher crush armor than most units, so they'd be good against elephants and axe or mace units.

[Adeimantos]

2 hours ago, Stan` said:

I've locked the poll. It seems the PR aren't rebased correctly so I might have to do some things manually...

I closed the disagreed upon ones.

Looks like i just missed voting. I would have voted yes on all the ones that are close.

[Adeimantos]

On 11/12/2022 at 1:47 AM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

If you want a better look at the upgrades (all visible in the tech tree), here is the branch made into a mod:

unit_upgrades.zip 1 MB · 3 downloads

I like the idea of these upgrades, haven't decided how many of them i like individually. Maybe try a commit with one upgrade for each unit instead of two, just pick the better one of each pair? Maybe a poll asking how people like each upgrade individually would be nice.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I am taking suggestions, like I removed projectile velocity from the upgrades since this is not visible to players and should be a constant.

I am considering allowing them to affect mercenaries as well.

[Stan`]

Projectile velocity also affects dancing too.

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, Stan` said:

Projectile velocity also affects dancing too.

Sure. Set it at a constant, though. If dancing is bad (I agree, it is) then set it at a level than makes dancing ineffective. You shouldn’t have to do an upgrade to get rid of something that shouldn’t exist.

Velocity is otherwise a proxy for accuracy (I.e., spread), which has its own, more direct variable. I think that’s what @real_tabasco_sauce was really aiming for too  

FWIW, dancing has been largely eliminated through a series of changes in recent alphas. Imo, that’s one of the best things that came out of a24. 
 

Edit: I know you’re not advocating here one way or the other, Stan. But I just want to clarify for everyone else

Edited December 16, 2022 by chrstgtr

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

As far as I am aware, the last remaining dancing form is hero based, and even it can be avoided at times by using alt/option to individually task your ranged units.

[Stan`]

Last version is live:

- Add a new aura to Alexander that does: "Enemy Soldiers, Structures -10% attack damage". Change Aura1 to "Soldiers +10% attack damage, +15% movement speed." and aura 2 to ""Enemy Civic Centres −50% capture points garrisoned regeneration rate."
- Add centurions to the romans (100 food, 50 metal) with a limit of 8 with an aura "Melee Soldiers +10% attack damage and all soldiers -25% experience points for promotion.""
- Change roman army camp to 400 wood 150 stone (vs 500 wood 100 stone 100 metal) Reduce health to 1750 (vs 2250) move it to town phase
- Add a farming tech to seleucids ("Farms -25% wood cost and -75% build time.)
- Increase by 15% Melee and Melee Champion cavalry walk speed

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

version 4 changelog: community_mod_changelog.txt

#This is a written changelog for additional merges to each version of the 
community mod. If you would like to review the exact details on #each 
merge, visit this link: 
https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests?scope=all&state=merged

-0.26.1-
!1  Set up gitlab with continuous integration to the mod.
-0.26.2-
!2  Han farming technologies (village and city phase) fixed.
!6  Regicide mode infinite loop from enabling hero garrison fixed.
-0.26.3-
!4  Move tier 3 blacksmith technologies to the town phase.
!5  Healers cost 100 food 25 metal, cheaper temple technologies.
!8  Themistocles now provides a wall discount as well as a naval buff, 
Pericles provides technology discount and soldiers in his aura do not give 
loot.
!10 Civic centers and colonies decreased cost, decreased territory 
expansion with each age.
!11 Axe cavalry buff to hack damage.
!12 Change to ptol civ bonus: Ptolemies houses, storehouses, farmsteads 
+50% build time and -40% capture points.
!13 Team Bonuses: Athens get CC technologies -30% cost, -50% research 
time, Seleucids get CC decreased build time too, Persians get cheaper 
barracks and stables, Carthage gets -50% mercenary infantry train time.
-0.26.4-
!26 Add a new aura to Alexander that does: "Enemy Soldiers, Structures -10% attack damage". Change Aura1 to "Soldiers +10% attack damage, +15% movement speed." and aura 2 to ""Enemy Civic Centres −50% capture points garrisoned regeneration rate."
!27 Add centurions to the romans (100 food, 50 metal) with a limit of 8 with an aura "Melee Soldiers +10% attack damage and all soldiers -25% experience points for promotion.""
!17 Change roman army camp to 400 wood 150 stone (vs 500 wood 100 stone 100 metal) Reduce health to 1750 (vs 2250) move it to town phase
!24 Add a farming civ bonus to Seleucids ("Farms -25% wood cost and -75% build time.) 
!19 Increase by 15% Melee and Melee Champion cavalry acceleration