Introducing the Official community mod for 0 A.D. Empires Ascendant

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I see. Well, we can revert jav cav health if it seems they are too weak. It is a small change overall, with the biggest change for champs anyway.

Shouldn't be a big concern, as they look poorly supported anyway.

[chrstgtr]

1 minute ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Shouldn't be a big concern, as they look poorly supported anyway.

Yeah, that's why I say, if these fail to gain support--as they appear headed to, I would see if a narrower/more targeted patch would gain support. 

[Philip the Swaggerless]

About the crush re-work:  I am not opposed to the idea necessarily but the merge request says to give mace man also 5 hack attack.  So they would have 5 Hack, 7 Crush for macemen every 1, versus 5.5 hack  every .75 second for swordsmen.  I haven't run any simulations but that feels like too much.  Macemen also have -less hack resistance so they are inferior that way but given that they can take down CC's with relative ease I think the 5 hack is too much.  Maybe 3 hack?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

13 minutes ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

About the crush re-work:  I am not opposed to the idea necessarily but the merge request says to give mace man also 5 hack attack.  So they would have 5 Hack, 7 Crush for macemen every 1, versus 5.5 hack  every .75 second for swordsmen.  I haven't run any simulations but that feels like too much.  Macemen also have -less hack resistance so they are inferior that way but given that they can take down CC's with relative ease I think the 5 hack is too much.  Maybe 3 hack?

I see, yeah 5 hack is too much, I think this might be an older version of the branch because I also seem to have left off the champion macemen here too (yoddahs). In any case, it is unintended.

The idea is that they should at least be usable in normal combat. I would say 4 sounds more appropriate. In this case, the CS macemen do 3.5 hack and the champs 7 hack.

edit: I split the middle, also this way they do half as much hack as crush.

Edited December 8, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Fabius]

7 hours ago, Dakara said:

The idea of a centurion unit can be appealing but I fear of too much micro.. it is a fundamental to avoid. It can just make the concept boring.

what exactly are you referring to when you say you are afraid of there being to much micro? I am not seeing how you need much micro for centurions.

you aren't going to really micro them on the battlefield and there are only 8 of them that you can have at any one time. The most micro you might have is setting up the initial acquisition and thats just getting some rank 2 troops and popping them into the barracks for 2 minutes to reach rank 3.

[alre]

pity, I liked the skirmisher adjustments, but voted no because of changes to slingers.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Just curious: what are some reasons to vote against number 3, unit specific upgrades? I would have expected more popularity due to the amount of content included.

[chrstgtr]

5 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Just curious: what are some reasons to vote against number 3, unit specific upgrades? I would have expected more popularity due to the amount of content included.

(1) It's a complicated system with 23 new techs.

(2) It basically tries to rebalance everything all at once, which will inevitably create greater imbalances. 

(3) It contains some specific things I find concerning.

For example, jav cav have a massive buff. Their spread (accuracy) improves a massive amount and their prepare time also is almost cut in half. 

Similarly, a massive buff is available for sword cav, which can get +10% health and +1 pierce armor. 

Additionally, a massive buff is available for archer cav, which get 1.15x dmg pierce dmg and 1.25x projectile speed, which increase accuracy (but does so indirectly). 

Taken together, the three best units, which many people already think are OP, all receive really, really large buffs. These buffs are also better than comparable inf buffs (e.g., archer cav get 1.25 dps plus increased accuracy but inf slings only get about 1.1x more dps). 

Likewise, projectile speeds are modified for several units and these modifications are inconsistent (1.5x speed for inf archers but 1.25x for cav archers and 30 for inf jav). Changing projectile speeds was a big part of the problem in a24. Honestly, I see no reason to ever change them because the same result can be accomplished in other more direct ways and their change isn't transparent to players. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

not all 23 technologies are active at the same time. Each civ gets 4 to 8 of them.

Sure, some particular upgrades may be imbalanced for particular situations. I get that. But why would you rather miss out on all of this content on the grounds that some things may be imbalanced? Remember this is an experimental mod.

These techs are extremely easy to adjust, so in other words the "specific things" you find concerning could be fixed effortlessly if they pose a problem.

I also don't understand what is complicated too: its literally just a tech tree for each unit type. Of course it's going to seem complicated at first, as is everything the first time you see it.

7 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

(2) It basically tries to rebalance everything all at once, which will inevitably create greater imbalances. 

I disagree here, all the patch does is add content. Balance is a secondary objective. I have simply designed them to avoid being OP as best I can.

currently, military upgrades are basically an arms race, with very little strategy involved. Unique upgrades like 'archery tradition' and 'hoplite tradition' are the exception, and the improvement to gameplay these techs bring inspired me to make a larger group of techs.

The strategic aspect these upgrades add to the mod outweighs the risks (some things could be OP).

[real_tabasco_sauce]

17 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

For example, jav cav have a massive buff. Their spread (accuracy) improves a massive amount and their prepare time also is almost cut in half. 

Similarly, a massive buff is available for sword cav, which can get +10% health and +1 pierce armor. 

Additionally, a massive buff is available for archer cav, which get 1.15x dmg pierce dmg and 1.25x projectile speed, which increase accuracy (but does so indirectly). 

also, keep in mind that these upgrades replace the rather boring cavalry_health and cavalry_speed upgrades. These upgrades currently serve as a blanket buff for all cavalry at a very low price.

You are drawing too many assumptions on individual technologies instead of looking at the system as a whole.

[chrstgtr]

 

46 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Sure, some particular upgrades may be imbalanced for particular situations. I get that. But why would you rather miss out on all of this content on the grounds that some things may be imbalanced? Remember this is an experimental mod.

A single unit can ruin gameplay. I prefer a game with 2 balanced units instead of a game with 3 unit options but only 1 is built because it is OP. 

57 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

currently, military upgrades are basically an arms race, with very little strategy involved. 

This isn't true. You have to decide which to techs to get, the order to get them, and when to get them. Unless you are playing death match settings, it is a game of limited resources. I very rarely get all the techs and I doubt I have every played a game where everyone got all the techs. 

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Unique upgrades like 'archery tradition' and 'hoplite tradition' are the exception, and the improvement to gameplay these techs bring inspired me to make a larger group of techs.

I like these too. I would like to see some more tech options like this. 

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

You are drawing too many assumptions on individual technologies instead of looking at the system as a whole.

I don't think this is truly a whole system instead of a compilation of several individual things that could be individually implemented. I identified a 3 instances where I believe the proposal would be too strong. 

------

I am not trying to say there aren't good ideas. I am trying to say that I don't like the package as a whole. But I would welcome some aspects of these. 

There have been a lot of people with grand overhaul visions and everyone who has tried to do it has created greater imbalances than they started out with. I don't think anyone should assume they are better than anyone has proven to be. 

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

also, keep in mind that these upgrades replace the rather boring cavalry_health and cavalry_speed upgrades. These upgrades currently serve as a blanket buff for all cavalry at a very low price.

 

I like when the health bonus was only for specific civs. If it is kept for all civs then there should be a trade off. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

This isn't true. You have to decide which to techs to get, the order to get them, and when to get them. Unless you are playing death match settings, it is a game of limited resources. I very rarely get all the techs and I doubt I have every played a game where everyone got all the techs. 

Maybe it's exaggerating to call it an arms race, but these upgrades would just improve on the diversity of gameplay options. Thats a positive.

2 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

I like these too. I would like to see some more tech options like this. 

...

2 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

I don't think this is truly a whole system

No, it's definitely a system. It is commonly referred to as a tech tree.

2 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

grand overhaul visions

This is no grand overhaul. It's just content. Maybe I am doing a bad job of explaining this.

Why would you rather throw the entire proposal out the window than allow the possibility of 1 or 2 (slightly more) OP units in an experimental mod?

[chrstgtr]

33 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Why would you rather throw the entire proposal out the window than allow the possibility of 1 or 2 (slightly more) OP units in an experimental mod?

We can call it "experimental" all we want, but for all intents and purposes--it is the current alpha. The vanilla version of a26 does not function, if for no other reason, because of the Han farming issue and as a result most regular players exclusively play the mod. The mod will also likely be a27.

And, again, a single OP unit can ruin gameplay. For example, in a22, a common rule was the no one was allowed to make cav or bolt shooters. In a24, no one made anything but archers and OP defensive structures made games extremely long and enjoyable. Those are two alphas where a single OP unit was sufficient to ruin gameplay. We should not brush off just a few potentially OP units. 

I have other issues besides the specific ones I named, but the ones I named provide a general preview.

33 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

No, it's definitely a system. It is commonly referred to as a tech tree.

That is also true if you add just one tech--it becomes part of the tech tree. Each of these can standalone. What requires all 23 to be implemented at once?

Edited December 9, 2022 by chrstgtr

[real_tabasco_sauce]

26 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

That is also true if you add just one tech--it becomes part of the tech tree. Each of these can standalone. What requires all 23 to be implemented at once?

each unit gets their own tree. All the upgrades play a role in unit (and civ) differentiation.

It doesn't make sense to overlook an upgrade for a unit type, that would be inconsistent. I think you are still assuming a lot. For instance, the javelin cavalry upgrade is not available in p1, where prepare time and accuracy would be the most problematic. Also, civs that already have strong jav cav for some other reason do not recieve this upgrade. See? Very easily modified as needed. 

The objective part is the content added, not balance because we can't predict the future meta (at least very easily).

Its like rejecting the entire hamburger just because you don't like pickles.

Edited December 9, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

33 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

And, again, a single OP unit can ruin gameplay. For example, in a22, a common rule was the no one was allowed to make cav or bolt shooters. In a24, no one made anything but archers and OP defensive structures made games extremely long and enjoyable. Those are two alphas where a single OP unit was sufficient to ruin gameplay. We should not brush off just a few potentially OP units. 

Yes, but these were OP due to their inherent stats, not due to upgrades. in a24, all units were slower so there was no way to escape the range of archers. Also, you should consider that other units (spear cav, slingers, skirms, pikemen, spearmen etc ) also get as powerful if not more powerful upgrades. This is what I mean when I say u should consider the whole system, not just one or 2 upgrades.

[chrstgtr]

55 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

each unit gets their own tree. All the upgrades play a role in unit (and civ) differentiation.

It doesn't make sense to overlook an upgrade for a unit type, that would be inconsistent. I think you are still assuming a lot. For instance, the javelin cavalry upgrade is not available in p1, where prepare time and accuracy would be the most problematic. Also, civs that already have strong jav cav for some other reason do not recieve this upgrade. See? Very easily modified as needed. 

The objective part is the content added, not balance because we can't predict the future meta (at least very easily).

Its like rejecting the entire hamburger just because you don't like pickles.

But my question was why do all need to be implemented at once? A pickle can make you reject the whole burger if you are allergic. I just don't see why all have to be implemented at once. 

43 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Yes, but these were OP due to their inherent stats, not due to upgrades

Units will eventually get to the upgrades, though. If a unit become OP after upgrades it is still OP. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

13 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

But my question was why do all need to be implemented at once? A pickle can make you reject the whole burger if you are allergic. I just don't see why all have to be implemented at once. 

Try the burger, if you don't like pickles just take them off, burger is still good no?

Idk, I just most players voting no are just afraid of change. The main thing is the mod has much higher turnaround than an alpha release, so we should try new things.

Edited December 9, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[chrstgtr]

Just now, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Try the burger, if you don't like pickles just take them off, burger is still good no?

I don't know. You tell me--is a patch of 22 upgrades still good? A patch of 21? 20? 19? . . . A patch with 1 upgrade?

[Stan`]

I would like to stress that so far only the rice field and regicide fixes have been committed. Nothing from the mod itself. 

A possibility is for the mod to be rebased for A27 and continue to exist as standalone.

We have not decided what to do yet because there is too little activity on the other side.

Only three people are active. One is working on a new Atlas, the other on Vulkan, and the last one is working on some minor art fixes.

 

[chrstgtr]

41 minutes ago, Stan` said:

I would like to stress that so far only the rice field and regicide fixes have been committed. Nothing from the mod itself. 

A possibility is for the mod to be rebased for A27 and continue to exist as standalone.

We have not decided what to do yet because there is too little activity on the other side.

Only three people are active. One is working on a new Atlas, the other on Vulkan, and the last one is working on some minor art fixes.

 

The mod is great. It allows for quicker improvements that players want. I'm just saying that, at least for a26, the mod represents a large portion of all regular users and therefore has replaced vanilla as the 'true' a26. 

I would love to see it back for a27. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

8 hours ago, Dakara said:

Of course i'm afraid to add 20 new upgrades.  

Besides, I don't see much point. Have a lot of little upgrades it useless. You might as well have the effects of these improvements automatically if you deem them necessary, without upgrade. 

They are not available all to one civ. Each civ has a small selection of them depending on their unit roster. The upgrades are much more situational than the forge techs, because they are not just damage and armor. 

Also, they are researched in the barracks and stable because they apply to units trained there.

Edited December 9, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

8 hours ago, Dakara said:

if you eat too much resource with "4" additional technology, less resource for P3, make champion, do a new CC and get your fist in fortress.

this is just opportunity cost. This is actually a benefit.

[Loki1950]

Your allergy metaphor just does work if you are allergic to that pickle in the burger the whole burger has become toxic for you period removing it does remove the contamination it's still their and still toxic.

Enjoy the Choice  

[a 0ad player]

I just wanted to say thanks for all the works here. Great

[real_tabasco_sauce]

49 minutes ago, Loki1950 said:

Your allergy metaphor just does work if you are allergic to that pickle in the burger the whole burger has become toxic for you period removing it does remove the contamination it's still their and still toxic.

Haha you're right, I am all too familiar since I am allergic to many things. The point remains tho, that the whole system brings more benefit than individual components may bring harm.

Edited December 9, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce