Syracuse Mod Idea/Brainstorming

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

29 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Good idea, some adaptations:

1. By default most soldiers are mercenaries, but they train almost instantly. This makes them worth the price. 

2. Gelo's reform unlocks citizen soldiers, then you have a choice between the two: if you need emergency troops then you cna still spam mercenaries, but if you are poor and not under immediate threat you can go for citizen soldiers. 

There are only 3 citizen soldiers so how do we make this work? Is the civ gonna start with 1 CS available at the start? The spearman? And you're are going to pay for ability train a below avarage skirmisher and a spear cav?

Edited June 22, 2021 by PyrrhicVictoryGuy

[Lopess]

 

Innocent question: Will they have citizen slings?

[Lopess]

 

I remember they were allies of Sparta and at one point the Spartans helped them, can we have Spartan mercenaries?

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

42 minutes ago, Lopess said:

 

I remember they were allies of Sparta and at one point the Spartans helped them, can we have Spartan mercenaries?

Way ahead of you. When I updated the doc. I included the following tech, haven't come up the cost however.

 

Doric camaraderie

• A one time, instantaneous shipment of 20 spartiates (spartan champ hoplite) to the Tyrant's Fortress.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

49 minutes ago, Lopess said:

 

Innocent question: Will they have citizen slings?

 Why slings? I mean they could have rhodian slings but not balearic ones but why?

[Lopess]

12 minutes ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

Way ahead of you. When I updated the doc. I included the following tech, haven't come up the cost however.

 

Doric camaraderie

• A one time, instantaneous shipment of 20 spartiates (spartan champ hoplite) to the Tyrant's Fortress.

I don't know if the idea was something like in age of empires 3, which I believe is not possible in the current 0ad (not sure) But we can create a technology that releases the recruit of up to 20 spartiates for 0 resources.

[Lopess]

15 minutes ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

 Why slings? I mean they could have rhodian slings but not balearic ones but why?

Because they could have. As I said, it was just a question . I'm not an English speaker so some words can be synonymous in Portuguese or be something very close.

[Belisarius17]

HI Grapjas, Hi Fregarach, and Hi everyone.....thanks for your reply guys, so for your help....your help is highly appreciated and always will be, so anyone's around .  And yes...Grapjas, I do know he was helping me, and he did... The info that has been share, have been very useful...I just got up sad, because as I say before, I believe that any criticism or complaint should be done always in private, not in public...but well...I don't think is right to keep that theme going,  it deviates the whole porpoise of Fregarach's Syracuse scenario concept here at this post, and the game itself. We all already talk about it, and what it was said is in the pass now..so I will not keep talking about it. Differences between people in public tend to build uncomfortable situations for everyone, and I don't want to be that to anyone around here, and I'm pretty sure that Fregarach and most of you guys, probably feel the same way. I will try to be more proper in the future and avoid kidnapping posts as this, that by the way, it was never my intention. Now, in regard to a Syracuse scenario..I like the idea of citizen soldiers for the Syracuse faction as it was suggested. But about their elite units....don't know what to suggest yet, No historical references have survived to this day's about the Tirant's personal guards...but the idea of making them is a good one, and an open one for any creator with a good imagination, because of not historical references about them to these days.  May be thy should look like a mix between a Spartans and a Samnite...I found those Samnites to be real good as fighters, I add them to the scenario I'm working as a Gaia faction. I just would like to see more independent mercenaries units in the game that can be attached to any of the main factions in the game. I have seen the roman slaves models with swords and I love those, so the Gladiators...may be the Syracuse faction can have some units that are like a mix of the Spartans and the Roman slaves models... Just saying. 

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

41 minutes ago, Lopess said:

I don't know if the idea was something like in age of empires 3, which I believe is not possible in the current 0ad (not sure) But we can create a technology that releases the recruit of up to 20 spartiates for 0 resources.

Not for zero resources, you would obviously pay for them and lot at that. I got the idea from the horribly outated 0 AD wiki.

Edited June 22, 2021 by PyrrhicVictoryGuy

[alre]

If mercenaries are avaiable to phase 1, this will be a possibly very aggressive civ, and I think that's quite fitting, Syracuse was indeed much involved in aggressive warfare.

One can imagine trying to get and mantain an edge since early game with mercenary rushes (since they can't gather resources, you would train mercs only to build a couple of buildings maybe, and then send them to war). Since they Syracuse doesn't have a cheap outpost (according to the design by @PyrrhicVictoryGuy they can't even get a second cc, and I like the idea) and they don't have a particularly good cav either, they can only keep striking right on, which is not very convenient. To help them, I'd like to propose a new/different unique bonus: every time you conquer/destroy a house, you get 1/2 slaves at your cc (depending on the capacity of the house). The inspiration comes from the fact that Syracusan tyrants often resorted to deportation on the population of submitted cities, lower class citizen would become slaves.

If things don't go well with mercs, or if the strategic situation is against them, a player would have the option to pass "Gelo's reform" (in p2?) and invest into fortifications and trade. Both things Syracuse was well known for.

Another thing Syracuse pioneered is bolt shooters, so they could maybe have them in p2, as a further help in defense, after the set down caused by switching to CS economy only after passing a costy tech. Or also as a groung control element when rushing, since they only have bad options for territorial expansion.

[alre]

2 hours ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

There are only 3 citizen soldiers so how do we make this work? Is the civ gonna start with 1 CS available at the start? The spearman? And you're are going to pay for ability train a below avarage skirmisher and a spear cav?

this is how I would make it:

- cs from the beginning: spearman, spearcav and a nerfed ranged troup that could better be a slinger IMO, because sicules were mercenaries to Syracuse

- mercs that become cs after passing the reform: skirmisher, swordman, and maybe jav cav too

- mercs that don't become cs: archer, maybe a beefier champion/merc like the tyrant's guard

the second category could be dealed with by enabling cs training and disabling merc training, or just by enabling cs. I'd actually like if, in addiction to this, all those mercs that you already have become citizens (and keep their experience of course, you paid for it).

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

48 minutes ago, alre said:

this is how I would make it:

- cs from the beginning: spearman, spearcav and a nerfed ranged troup that could better be a slinger IMO, because sicules were mercenaries to Syracuse

the second category could be dealed with by enabling cs training and disabling merc training, or just by enabling cs. I'd actually like if, in addiction to this, all those mercs that you already have become citizens (and keep their experience of course, you paid for it).

Well i gave them a sicanian skirmisher with less health because the sicules had early conflicts with syracuse. But that should cover the weak ranged inf. no? I mean slings are pretty useless i think.

So with Gelon's reform tech some mercs become cs, can they gater resources now?

Well i actually agree that either xbows or bolt shooters should be a phase II champ and artillery respectively but I'm afraid of making them op.

Anyway we kinda need to streamline these concepts early.

Mercs in phase I? Wich ones? 

Gelon's tech, what should it do,?

• Make the other cs available ?
• Or make  3/5 of the mercs turn into cs?
• Or should it lower the shuffle the cost of mercs ( more food , less metal or something else, as to represent having more population available) or should we have another tech for that?(see mercenariy loyalty in the doc)

Special buildinds: 

The Fortified port:

• I thought its cost could be between a military colony and a cc, should it be lower?
• What mercs should it train?
• Stats for it?

Tyrant's Palace/fortress

• Stats for it?
• Only place that can trian heroes?
• Only place that trains the hybrid champion or should we let  barracks or even other fortresses train them?

Which units for phase I, II and III?

• Should we add slings too? Merc or cs?
• Xbows in pII?

All mercs by pII or we leave some like the elephants for pIII?

@Yekaterina @Lopess @LetswaveaBook @Player of 0AD @alre  @Lion.Kanzen 

Cast your votes now!!

Edited June 22, 2021 by PyrrhicVictoryGuy

[Gurken Khan]

35 minutes ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

Tyrant's Palace/fortress

• Stats for it?
• Only place that can trian heroes?
• Only place that trains the hybrid champion or should we let  barracks or even other fortresses train them?

Probably there should be more than one place where those champs can be trained; in Alpha25 the limit (of 1) on Mauryan Palace was removed to allow for that.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

Well i gave them a sicanian skirmisher with less health because the sicules had early conflicts with syracuse. But that should cover the weak ranged inf. no? I mean slings are pretty useless i think.

So with Gelon's reform tech some mercs become cs, can they gater resources now?

Well i actually agree that either xbows or bolt shooters should be a phase II champ and artillery respectively but I'm afraid of making them op.

Anyway we kinda need to streamline these concepts early.

Mercs in phase I? Wich ones? 

Gelon's tech, what should it do,?

• Make the other cs available ?
• Or make  3/5 of the mercs turn into cs?
• Or should it lower the shuffle the cost of mercs ( more food , less metal or something else, as to represent having more population available) or should we have another tech for that?(see mercenariy loyalty in the doc)

Special buildinds: 

The Fortified port:

• I thought its cost could be between a military colony and a cc, should it be lower?
• What mercs should it train?
• Stats for it?

Tyrant's Palace/fortress

• Stats for it?
• Only place that can trian heroes?
• Only place that trains the hybrid champion or should we let  barracks or even other fortresses train them?

Which units for phase I, II and III?

• Should we add slings too? Merc or cs?
• Xbows in pII?

All mercs by pII or we leave some like the elephants for pIII?

@Yekaterina @Lopess @LetswaveaBook @Player of 0AD @alre  @Lion.Kanzen 

Cast your votes now!!

do a poll. it is easier.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

17 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

do a poll. it is easier.

Is there anyway to do it without making a new topic?

[LetswaveaBook]

@PyrrhicVictoryGuy, I think the idea is cool. The thing is that you should make it as you envision it. I do not want to put my mark on your idea and pollute it with my views. I think if it is about getting it done right, it would be nice to have some good historical sources and see which unit types fit best. I am a little skeptical on food-based bonuses since people of all civilizations ate food and eating food was important to any of them.

However I can say that elephants in p2 does not seem to be a smart idea.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

21 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

@PyrrhicVictoryGuy, I think the idea is cool. The thing is that you should make it as you envision it. I do not want to put my mark on your idea and pollute it with my views. I think if it is about getting it done right, it would be nice to have some good historical sources and see which unit types fit best. I am a little skeptical on food-based bonuses since people of all civilizations ate food and eating food was important to any of them.

However I can say that elephants in p2 does not seem to be a smart idea.

You're definetively right about the food bonuses, the historical basis for this is that much like Egypt, Sicily did provide food for west meditteranean for example Gaius Octivius had to deal with Pompey's son because he controled Sicily and was holding out on grain, making Rome starve. The gameplay logic i was going for was that food bonus= more food and in less time= less women gathering = more resources and pop to make soldiers to either rush or further develop your eco.

Sicily does have large sulfur depoits so maybe a metal or stone gathering bonus would also be fitting.

I mean A25 is going to make elephants less dominant and a mercenary elephant would be costly.

Edited June 22, 2021 by PyrrhicVictoryGuy

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

@Lopess @Yekaterina   The civ's structure tree should look something like this no?

I've put some stripes underneath some portraits to better distinguish them; green indicates mercenaries, yellow indicates unique technologies and purple I reserved for champion class units. Also the i used the athenian champion portrait as a placeholder.

Edited June 24, 2021 by PyrrhicVictoryGuy

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

Now to delve into specifc unit stats:

 

Citizen Soldiers

Syracusan Hoplite:                                      

Health:100

Hack Damage: 3, range: 4, interval:1

Pierce Damage:2.5, range: 4, interval:1

Crush Damage:0

Hack Armor:5

Pierce Armor:5

Crush Armor:15

Walk Speed:9

Run Speed:15

Cost:50 food, 50 wood

Gather rates: standard spearman stats

Loot: 5 food, 5 wood

 

Sicanian Skirmisher:

Health:40

Hack Damage:0

Pierce Damage:13, range: 30, interval: 1.25

Crush Damage:0

Hack Armor:1

Pierce Armor:1

Crush Armor:10

Walk Speed:10.8

Run Speed:18

Cost:50 food, 50 wood

Loot:5 food, 5 wood

Gather rates: standard skirmisher stats

 

Greek Cavalry:

Health:160

Hack Damage:4, range: 6  , interval: 1.25

Pierce Damage:3, range: 6  , interval: 1.25

Crush Damage:0

Hack Armor:4

Pierce Armor:4

Crush Armor: 15

Walk Speed: 18

Run Speed: 25.2

Cost:100 food, 50 wood

Loot:10 food 5 wood

Gather rates: standard spear cavalry stats

 

Mercenaries:

Italian Swordsman:

Health:100

Hack Damage:4.5, range:3  , interval:0.75

Pierce Damage:0

Crush Damage:0

Hack Armor:6

Pierce Armor:5

Crush Armor:15

Walk Speed:8.5

Run Speed:14.5

Cost:20 food 50 metal

 

Cretan Archer:

Health:50

Hack Damage:0

Pierce Damage:

Crush Damage:0

Hack Armor:1

Pierce Armor:1

Crush Armor:10

Walk Speed:10.8

Run Speed:18

Cost: 20 food 50 metal

 

Tarantine Cavalry:

Health:110

Hack Damage:0

Pierce Damage:18, range:30, interval:1.25

Crush Damage:0

Hack Armor:3

Pierce Armor:2

Crush Armor:15

Walk Speed:15

Run Speed:20

Cost:40 food 70 metal

 

African War Elephant:

Health:575

Hack Damage: 20, range: 5 , interval:1.5

Pierce Damage:0

Crush Damage: 90, range: 5 , interval:1.5

Hack Armor:10

Pierce Armor:10

Crush Armor:20

Walk Speed:9

Run Speed:15

Pop Space: 3

Cost:  100 food 200 metal

 

Iberian Light Warrior

Health:80

Hack Damage:6.5, range:3, interval:0.75

Pierce Damage:0

Crush Damage:0

Hack Armor:5

Pierce Armor:3

Crush Armor:12

Walk Speed:10

Run Speed:16

Cost:30 food 40 metal

 

Champions

Crossbowman:

Health:110

Hack Damage:0

Pierce Damage:40, range: 60 , interval:2.5

Crush Damage:0

Hack Armor:3

Pierce Armor:3

Crush Armor:20

Walk Speed:10.8

Run Speed:18

Cost:80 food 60 wood 80 metal

 

Tyrant's Bodyguard:

Ranged Stance:

Health:185

Hack Damage:9.5, range:3 , interval:0.75

Pierce Damage:0

Crush Damage:0

Hack Armor:7

Pierce Armor:7

Crush Armor:20

Walk Speed:9.5

Run Speed:16

 

Melee Stance:

Health:185

Hack Damage:0

Pierce Damage:30

Crush Damage:0

Hack Armor:7

Pierce Armor:7

Crush Armor:20

Walk Speed:9.5

Run Speed:16

Cost:80 food 60 wood 80 metal

Edited June 24, 2021 by PyrrhicVictoryGuy

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

On 22/06/2021 at 3:30 PM, Lopess said:

I don't know if the idea was something like in age of empires 3, which I believe is not possible in the current 0ad (not sure) But we can create a technology that releases the recruit of up to 20 spartiates for 0 resources.

Can't we have a tech that trains a fixed batch of x troops? I say a tech because it would only be used once.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

Can't we have a tech that trains a fixed batch of x troops? I say a tech because it would only be used once.

I envisioned a nice late-game tech for Seleucids called "Epigamia" aka Marriage Pact, which gives the Seleucids a one-time gift of X number of Mauryan War Elephants. They would appear at the building that researches the tech. Perhaps unlocked if you choose Seleucus Nicator as your hero. Perhaps the trade off is that your civic centers cast a little less territory.

Edited June 24, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

5 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I envisioned a nice late-game tech for Seleucids called "Epigamia" aka Marriage Pact, which gives the Seleucids a one-time gift of X number of Mauryan War Elephants. They would appear at the building that researches the tech. Perhaps unlocked if you choose Seleucus Nicator as your hero. Perhaps the trade off is that your civic centers cast a little less territory.

I saw that tech in the wiki, i posted a screenshot of it in page 2.casting less territory for x "free" elephants would be nice

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

6 hours ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

I saw that tech in the wiki, i posted a screenshot of it in page 2.casting less territory for x "free" elephants would be nice

Lol. Actually it's near the top of this page! Teaches me to not read the thread. Lol

Yeah, I think this would be an awesome feature usable by both the Seleucids and Syracusans. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I envisioned a nice late-game tech for Seleucids called "Epigamia" aka Marriage Pact, which gives the Seleucids a one-time gift of X number of Mauryan War Elephants. They would appear at the building that researches the tech. Perhaps unlocked if you choose Seleucus Nicator as your hero. Perhaps the trade off is that your civic centers cast a little less territory.

how would that work at the script level?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

how would that work at the script level?

You're asking the wrong guy.

@wraitii @Freagarach @Angen @Stan`