Look of the athenian champions

[Silier]

Currently I have noticed something strange, but maybe it is just me.
Which unit of these two would you say by the look is champion unit.

[Stan`]

The one on the left

[Silier]

dont cheat
at least to me the armour left unit is wearing looks cheap compared to other armours used by the units.

I mean, look at them, even this unit on the left looks more like champion compared to champion on the first post. [edited for clarification]

[Stan`]

I think the one on the left was supposed to be a special unit. So while not heavily armored maybe it was supposed to have another purpose. @wowgetoffyourcellphone?

[Silier]

Here are another variants of that champion unit. He [most right unit] is not exactly fitting in.

[Stan`]

What would DE do ?

[Carltonus]

32 minutes ago, Angen said:

The left is an elite Perioikos hoplite. As I and @Ultimate Aurelian have said, one-greaved men are a Latin thing.

@Angen, what is exactly the matter with the epilektoi? They're supposed to be the more-athletic kind, hence the lighter armor than the usual hoplite. What about the logades?

[Silier]

no problem here  I just showed examples of another units how cool their armour looks like  issue is on introducing post
my problem is, if you look at bunch of units, you can tell right away whithout clicking on them if it is champion or not, but thats not case of the left unit on the first post, because it looks like low level unit

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Thorfinn the Shallow Minded @Nescio

Opinions.

 

Wowgetof...You must be sleeping or busy, it is still early hour in the American continent.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I think in DE I removed that one texture from the actor. I honestly think about two dozen or so unit textures need to be purged.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Also, the Epilektos is supposed to be from a slightly later time than the Hoplites. The Epilektos represents the Iphicratean era. Lighter body armor, boots, etc.

[Nescio]

There are probably more examples of elite units looking more impressive than champions in 0 A.D.

44 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Also, the Epilektos is supposed to be from a slightly later time than the Hoplites. The Epilektos represents the Iphicratean era. Lighter body armor, boots, etc.

That's not exactly true: ἐπίλεκτος (plural -οι) simply means ‘chosen’, they were picked troops, selected by the commander to serve as his bodyguard, fight on the right-hand end of the phalanx (the most honourable position), or for some other task. They didn't have some superior equipment that set them apart, nor were they a standing corps. The same is true for the Latin extraordinarii.

In Iphicrates' times Greek states increasingly relied on mercenaries, who could be drilled, disciplined, or dismissed, unlike citizens, who were nominally the equals of the leaders and could sue their commanders after the campaign was finished. Moreover, there was more emphasis on mobility, which is why Iphicrates equipped his troops with boots instead of greaves, dropped the bronze muscle cuirass, and replaced the heavy ἀσπίς with the lighter πέλτη (hence the name ‘peltasts’, for what were essentially proto-pikemen).

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

31 minutes ago, Nescio said:

There are probably more examples of elite units looking more impressive than champions in 0 A.D.

That's not exactly true: ἐπίλεκτος (plural -οι) simply means ‘chosen’, they were picked troops, selected by the commander to serve as his bodyguard, fight on the right-hand end of the phalanx (the most honourable position), or for some other task. They didn't have some superior equipment that set them apart, nor were they a standing corps. The same is true for the Latin extraordinarii.

In Iphicrates' times Greek states increasingly relied on mercenaries, who could be drilled, disciplined, or dismissed, unlike citizens, who were nominally the equals of the leaders and could sue their commanders after the campaign was finished. Moreover, there was more emphasis on mobility, which is why Iphicrates equipped his troops with boots instead of greaves, dropped the bronze muscle cuirass, and replaced the heavy ἀσπίς with the lighter πέλτη (hence the name ‘peltasts’, for what were essentially proto-pikemen).

Yyyyyes, I know all that. Thanks for the lesson review though! 

 

EDIT: I had a hand in creating the original actor and we based it on Iphicratean examples. We did not (and still do not) have smaller aspides/medium shields to be able to use for them, hence the "hoplite" shield. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Stan`]

What size should it be ?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, Stan` said:

What size should it be ?

We can't be sure, but probably halfway in size between the Macedonian pelte phalangite shield and the "hoplite" aspis (to show a progression; larger to smaller; Hoplite aspis -> Iphicratean pelta -> Macedonian pelta). The model can also be used for Tarantine and other Hellenistic cavalry. @Nescio is free to disagree. 

[Nescio]

50 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Yyyyyes, I know all that. Thanks for the lesson review though! 

 

EDIT: I had a hand in creating the original actor and we based it on Iphicratean examples. We did not (and still do not) have smaller aspides/medium shields to be able to use for them, hence the "hoplite" shield. 

If the Athenian champion is supposed to be the Iphicratean type, then it shouldn't be called ἐπίλεκτος.

29 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

We can't be sure, but probably halfway in size between the Macedonian pelte phalangite shield and the "hoplite" aspis (to show a progression; larger to smaller; Hoplite aspis -> Iphicratean pelta -> Macedonian pelta). The model can also be used for Tarantine and other Hellenistic cavalry. @Nescio is free to disagree. 

The important difference is the peltē is rimless. As for its size, have a look at the east side of the Tomb of Payava from Lycia, c. 360 BC (nowadays in the British Museum):

Spoiler

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

6 minutes ago, Nescio said:

If the Athenian champion is supposed to be the Iphicratean type, then it shouldn't be called ἐπίλεκτος.

There's nothing to say it can't be renamed. 

 

6 minutes ago, Nescio said:

So, halfway between a phalangite pelte and an aspis @Stan`.  The main thing being it is rimless. 

(I have seen Tarantine coinage that shows the Tarantine shield to occasionally have a rim and many examples with a spina, so those would be a separate project). 

[Carltonus]

Has anyone been doing kitbashing to create hoplites of differing eras? This could be helpful in making some more special units while the 3D artists are away. If forking phases by era is possible, the faction could have at least three kinds of champion hoplites. Like this:

• Traditional
  • Classical → armored
  • Peloponnesian War → armored
• Reformed
  • Iphicratean → the present epilektos (light and fast)
  • Hellenistic → logades (armored hoplite in Macedonian fashion)

The citizen elite hoplite will then be wearing decorated linothorax, or 10% chance of cuirass.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

https://www.worldhistory.org/hoplite/

Quote

Athens had a system of compulsory military service for 18-20-year-olds, but during a war, all male citizens up to the age of 60 could be called up to the armed forces. Other city-states followed a similar policy which meant that hoplites were not professional soldiers and often lacked sufficient military training, although some states did maintain a small elite professional unit, the epilektoi. 

 

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Hoplite

Quote

Most hoplites were not professional soldiers and often lacked sufficient military training. Some states maintained a small elite professional unit, known as the epilektoi ("chosen") since they were picked from the regular citizen infantry. These existed at times in Athens, Argos, Thebes, and Syracuse, among others.

 

References for the latter:

https://books.google.com/books?id=GoRoDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=epilektoi&f=false

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=v-PgAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA77#v=onepage&q=epilektoi&f=false

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Perhaps this might be a lone dissenting opinion, but having Iphicrates let alone Iphicratean like units seems against the central idea of 0 A.D.  The goal is to represent civilisations at their height, which in Athens case would be most likely the timeframe between the Persian War to the Peloponnesian War.  

[Carltonus]

10 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Iphicratean like units seems against the central idea of 0 A.D. The goal is to represent civilisations at their height.  

That means Agis III should be replaced as well, as he lived after the Peloponnesian War. In that case, this would affect the Athenian marines as well, they require the Iphicratean reforms tech alongside the Cretan archers. Any thoughts?

Back to the topic of the champion hoplite, "City Guard" is not a good translation. "Picked Hoplite" is a better one. Make him put on a full panoply with the bronze cuirass. The forking and/or sub-faction suggestion can be left as a modification idea.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Carltonus

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

7 hours ago, Carltonus said:

That means Agis III should be replaced as well, as he lived after the Peloponnesian War. In that case, this would affect the Athenian marines as well, they require the Iphicratean reforms tech alongside the Cretan archers. Any thoughts?

I have already argued against his inclusion.  Agesilaus II was much more emblematic of Spartan hegemony following the Peloponnesian War even though his diplomatic stance in part led to its downfall; honestly he was a remarkable historical figure that deserves more attention at least for his extraordinary life.

Athenian marines could be affected by a different technology; marines existed before Iphicrates, and having their existence contingent on him seems strange.  The same could be said for Cretan archers.

[azayrahmad]

On 26/4/2021 at 1:30 PM, Carltonus said:

Back to the topic of the champion hoplite, "City Guard" is not a good translation. "Picked Hoplite" is a better one.

Perhaps Chosen Hoplite can be used? Europa Barbarorum translate it as Distinguished Hoplite, but in Europa Barbarorum 2 they changed it to simply Elite Hoplite.

[soloooy0]

Some reference to marathon could be made, such as enhancement to the Athenian sailors or hero bonus

[Carltonus]

Would wish to support scrapping the Iphicratean reforms tech outright in light of @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded's view of "the height" of Athenian civilization, but no consensus among the other community members seems to have been reached. In this case, what alternative technologies and champion units can replace the Iphicratean influences?

Coming back to this, the reforms (if retained) should actually unlock a champion light hoplite like the present epilektos, as well as a champion skirmisher akin to the theureophoros a few alphas ago. Marines should be a whole different story, separate tech to unlock (light/armored fork?).

Image references:

When secondary weapons are a thing, the champion light peltasts can double as a hoplite. Don't forget to replace the thureos with oval wicker shields.